Michigan, Workers must not have a choice! Vote Union

[Liar]

By the way:

Might have been mentioned here too, but I'm not gonna read this whole damn thread...

I read that firefighter and police unions are exempt from Michigan's "Right to Work", so the fine policemen and first responders of the great state don't get to enjoy this new sweet, sweet freedom from union thuggery.

Now why is that?

 

[QueenLevitra]

By the way:

Might have been mentioned here too, but I'm not gonna read this whole damn thread...

I read that firefighter and police unions are exempt from Michigan's "Right to Work", so the fine policemen and first responders of the great state don't get to enjoy this new sweet, sweet freedom from union thuggery.

Now why is that?

Lulz.

I was waiting.

Thanks for having a brain.

Extra points if you can identify why this state is so fucking important to the Republican Dictatorship.

Anyone?

 

[Wyldfire]

Complete bullshit.

Hostess union workers had already taken several pay cuts, that were used to fund golden parachutes for the Bain-style groups that bought the company. The final nail was struck by greedy venture capatalists who were more concerned with their wellbeing than the company's.

Ah, so the Union were the little angels here eh? What? Did the pay cuts bring the workers down to a reasonable wage for the work they did? Come on Ulaven, tell the truth.....

Unions overinflate the value of the workers' skill sets regularly. It took the Ford contract in 2011 to finally make the UAW realize that they don't really hold the rudder anymore. Write that down folks. With high unemployment, the Unions aren't seen as the gold children really. "You want to strike for pay and benefits we can't achieve?" Really? Let a major strike happen and watch the lines crumble.....

 

[QueenLevitra]

Lulz.

I was waiting.

Thanks for having a brain.

Extra points if you can identify why this state is so fucking important to the Republican Dictatorship.

Anyone?

Gotta go.

Think about it.

Google it.

It's a huge and long term view.

Surely one of you can come up with it.

 

[Liar]

Rick Snyder is an arsonist. That must be it.

 

[Sean Renaud]

...and of course, you were there, so you know.

You only make yourself look very silly in speaking of things which you have NO interest in yet alone NO facts about.

Perhaps the words you use to speak of my posts may be more accurate in describing your own view points and words you share.

That's the beauty of most of the crap you spew. It's so fantastic that you don't need to be there to know that it was bullshit, just like you didn't need to be at Acorn to know that they never gave tax advice to a pimp. Just common sense is enough to figure these things out a lot of the time.

Ah, so the Union were the little angels here eh? What? Did the pay cuts bring the workers down to a reasonable wage for the work they did? Come on Ulaven, tell the truth.....

Unions overinflate the value of the workers' skill sets regularly. It took the Ford contract in 2011 to finally make the UAW realize that they don't really hold the rudder anymore. Write that down folks. With high unemployment, the Unions aren't seen as the gold children really. "You want to strike for pay and benefits we can't achieve?" Really? Let a major strike happen and watch the lines crumble.....

Who knows if the Unions were angels or not, I doubt it. But if the entire casualty rate of thousands of workers is one hot dog vendor getting beaten up I'd say that falls well within the realms of acceptable. It's funny that the right simotaneously praises men who rioted and eventually declared war on their government over taxes denounces people who cause little scuffles over not getting paid.

I hope your wrong that a major strike has the effect that your guessing it will. I doubt it though. Look at Europe, look at the Middle East, look at China. People are figuring out the game and that it's better to sink the ship than be a slave on one.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

No, they receive more because the Union overinflates the wages in contract negotiations. And trust me, if anyone knows the damage a Union strike can do it is the auto industry. Hence management HAS to suffer the lower payscale or the cost of automobiles becomes prohibitive to the market. Trust me, the auto manufacturers will make their profit, and trust me, they let management know good and damned well how the process works. Makes for great relations between management and Union workers.



LOL, you know as well as I do no matter how low of pay Hostess offered workers, the Union had allready sucked every bit of cream filling out of an allready damaged Twinkie. The company was allready in trouble, the Union simply struck the final nail.



Ah, I see, you go with the line that it is "contract negotiations" and not a thinly veiled "protection racket". Carry on.



Really? You're sure about that? Like I said earlier, the Unions once were necessary, but once the Reps got a taste of the good life, the Unions became a leech. They feed off of the companies, because after all they're evil and greedy and want to abuse the workforce right? They feed off of their members with dues, which are meant to pad the workers in times of strike, yet never quite seem to make up the slack, right? Unions exist in this day and age as a business unto itself.

But of course I'm wrong, right? You do know oh so much more about it don't ya Sarge?

1. You were wrong the 1st time you said it, saying it again doesn't make it right. Unions can not inflate the value of anything. Workers don't receive a penny more than management is willing to pay. Ever. Union or not. Management gets paid the wage the owners feel they deserve.

2. You didn't answer the question. If there are so many unemployed who would love to work at the price Hostess was offering why didn't they jump at the chance to work?

3. Yes, I'm sure. If no one is willing to join the union, how do the reps make money?

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

That's the beauty of most of the crap you spew. It's so fantastic that you don't need to be there to know that it was bullshit, just like you didn't need to be at Acorn to know that they never gave tax advice to a pimp. Just common sense is enough to figure these things out a lot of the time.



Who knows if the Unions were angels or not, I doubt it. But if the entire casualty rate of thousands of workers is one hot dog vendor getting beaten up I'd say that falls well within the realms of acceptable. It's funny that the right simotaneously praises men who rioted and eventually declared war on their government over taxes denounces people who cause little scuffles over not getting paid.

I hope your wrong that a major strike has the effect that your guessing it will. I doubt it though. Look at Europe, look at the Middle East, look at China. People are figuring out the game and that it's better to sink the ship than be a slave on one.

I think it's hypocritical that some abhor "union violence", but jump to defend someone who shoots an unarmed teenager.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I think it's hypocritical that some abhor "union violence", but jump to defend someone who shoots an unarmed teenager.

That was no unarmed teen. That was a gangster every bit as dangerous as the most deadly member of Al Qaeda.

edit: You want some great yuks? Wrap your mind around the fact that the same people who scream that we need guns encase the government ever gets oppressive cheered as children were pepper sprayed.

Just close your eyes and imagine if those people had "defended" themselves, even with weapons as primitive as boxes of rocks.

 

[julybaby04]

That's the beauty of most of the crap you spew. It's so fantastic that you don't need to be there to know that it was bullshit, just like you didn't need to be at Acorn to know that they never gave tax advice to a pimp. Just common sense is enough to figure these things out a lot of the time.



...and just what is so fantastic about it? Just because your beautiful "union" is not all it is cracked up to be does not make what I said untrue.

....just because YOU did not live it, does not mean it did not happen.

Others have lived lives and have experiences, not just you and what you have experienced in your precious little life.

 

[Sean Renaud]

...and just what is so fantastic about it? Just because your beautiful "union" is not all it is cracked up to be does not make what I said untrue.

....just because YOU did not live it, does not mean it did not happen.

Others have lived lives and have experiences, not just you and what you have experienced in your precious little life.

Just about every word, I'd be better served quoting you a second time and putting the entire post in bold. It's all crazy.

My beautiful unions are pathetic. Why is it that you nave no answer for how you can consider a country with a roughly 50% failure rate as anything but a failure?

It's true that there are otherw with lives and experience. There are even people with the linguistic skills and actual knowledge to put together coherent thoughts. You don't tend to be one of them though.

PS: Do learn to use the quote function properly.

 

[julybaby04]

Just about every word, I'd be better served quoting you a second time and putting the entire post in bold. It's all crazy.

My beautiful unions are pathetic. Why is it that you nave no answer for how you can consider a country with a roughly 50% failure rate as anything but a failure?

It's true that there are otherw with lives and experience. There are even people with the linguistic skills and actual knowledge to put together coherent thoughts. You don't tend to be one of them though.

PS: Do learn to use the quote function properly.

If you are truly 29, as your profile states....I will assume that is why you think you are so incredibly intelligent and have the answer to the ills of the world. I knew there must be some reason for your being as obnoxious as you are...and your age is a very good reason.

You need to live a bit more life to be able to give advice to those who already have gone before you. You might just learn that you do not know quite as much as you think you do.....and perhaps will learn not to judge that which you do not understand.

I am not supporting the unions....if that is the impression you got. I am completely against them. Like I mentioned, my dad was on both sides of that issue....and I was a part of a union for 3 months. There was nothing good about the unions at that point and they have just gotten worse.

ps....do not concern yourself with my use of grammar.....I have done very fine without a smug 20-something leading me.

 

[Sean Renaud]

If you are truly 29, as your profile states....I will assume that is why you think you are so incredibly intelligent and have the answer to the ills of the world. I knew there must be some reason for your being as obnoxious as you are...and your age is a very good reason.

I don't know all the answers. I don't even know half the answers. I know a fair amount of the problems and a good amount of questions for starting points to find the problems.

You need to live a bit more life to be able to give advice to those who already have gone before you. You might just learn that you do not know quite as much as you think you do.....and perhaps will learn not to judge that which you do not understand.

I understand perfectly. Like many people you let the fact that you've lived through something make you assume that you understand how it works. That's fundamentally untrue. Besides, how much advice have I really been giving? I've been pointing out glaring problems with the system and the most obvious causes for said problems and nobody really contradicts my theories and certainly not my facts.

I am not supporting the unions....if that is the impression you got. I am completely against them. Like I mentioned, my dad was on both sides of that issue....and I was a part of a union for 3 months. There was nothing good about the unions at that point and they have just gotten worse.

I know you hate unions. It's obvious from every word that comes out of your mouth. Until you can point to a better cause for why the decline in unions has directly followed a decline in overall wages, a decrease in the middle class and an increase in the amount of wealth controlled by the top 1% I have to assume you either don't care or your incapable of processing facts.

ps....do not concern yourself with my use of grammar.....I have done very fine without a smug 20-something leading me.

Aww. I hit a nerve. And it wasn't your grammar, it was your computer skills. Which seeing as you're of the older generation I guess can be excused as these new fangled machines being to complicated for people who had to learn how to use the remote for the TV instead of the dial.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Aww. I hit a nerve. And it wasn't your grammar, it was your computer skills. Which seeing as you're of the older generation I guess can be excused as these new fangled machines being to complicated for people who had to learn how to use the remote for the TV instead of the dial.

That's a spelling mistake.

 

[julybaby04]

I don't know all the answers. I don't even know half the answers. I know a fair amount of the problems and a good amount of questions for starting points to find the problems.



I understand perfectly. Like many people you let the fact that you've lived through something make you assume that you understand how it works. That's fundamentally untrue. Besides, how much advice have I really been giving? I've been pointing out glaring problems with the system and the most obvious causes for said problems and nobody really contradicts my theories and certainly not my facts.



I know you hate unions. It's obvious from every word that comes out of your mouth. Until you can point to a better cause for why the decline in unions has directly followed a decline in overall wages, a decrease in the middle class and an increase in the amount of wealth controlled by the top 1% I have to assume you either don't care or your incapable of processing facts.



Aww. I hit a nerve. And it wasn't your grammar, it was your computer skills. Which seeing as you're of the older generation I guess can be excused as these new fangled machines being to complicated for people who had to learn how to use the remote for the TV instead of the dial.

Oh my.....you are definitely a 20-something.

Of everything you attempted to say....I will only address the one item that even matters.......the decline in wages and such. I believe you first need to understand that some have wealth and some do not will never change. To expect it to be any different is just jealousy ....which your generation seems to excel at.

If you want to increase your status in your life, then do something about it. Perhaps that means make a different life choice, perhaps get better educated, perhaps move to a city where there are more opportunities to make better money. That is called personal responsibility which is greatly lacking in this country.

Next, if unions were realistic and honest, then making a good work environment and decent wages would be fine. However, when the desire for money and power take over....there is no realism. It is about getting the most a union can possibly get (even if that means the company is no longer able to sustain itself). For a union to go on strike or think about it (as in my case when they were upset about going from a 6 day to a 5 day work week), then that is nothing but pure greed.

The unions have to understand, as do the management, that working together and being reasonable is best for BOTH sides.

(It is also going to go bad when unions are corrupt...and that does happen).


p.s.....total side note.....Thank you for your service!

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Oh my.....you are definitely a 20-something.

Of everything you attempted to say....I will only address the one item that even matters.......the decline in wages and such. I believe you first need to understand that some have wealth and some do not will never change. To expect it to be any different is just jealousy ....which your generation seems to excel at.

If you want to increase your status in your life, then do something about it. Perhaps that means make a different life choice, perhaps get better educated, perhaps move to a city where there are more opportunities to make better money. That is called personal responsibility which is greatly lacking in this country.

Next, if unions were realistic and honest, then making a good work environment and decent wages would be fine. However, when the desire for money and power take over....there is no realism. It is about getting the most a union can possibly get (even if that means the company is no longer able to sustain itself). For a union to go on strike or think about it (as in my case when they were upset about going from a 6 day to a 5 day work week), then that is nothing but pure greed.

The unions have to understand, as do the management, that working together and being reasonable is best for BOTH sides.

(It is also going to go bad when unions are corrupt...and that does happen).


p.s.....total side note.....Thank you for your service!

You do realize that the decline of unions makes it harder to get a different job, better education, move...etc, right?

You also seem to say that it's ok for those with money to be greedy, but not anyone else. Am I correct?

 

[julybaby04]

You do realize that the decline of unions makes it harder to get a different job, better education, move...etc, right?

You also seem to say that it's ok for those with money to be greedy, but not anyone else. Am I correct?

Why does a union make any difference at all in a change in one's life?

Also, not saying those with money should be greedy....just saying that there has been and always will be those who have money and those who do not. The jealousy over what someone else has is what bothers me.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Why does a union make any difference at all in a change in one's life?

Also, not saying those with money should be greedy....just saying that there has been and always will be those who have money and those who do not. The jealousy over what someone else has is what bothers me.

I'll get to that 1st question later.

It's not jealousy. It's asking for a fair market price and being treated fairly. That doesn't sound at all like jealousy.

 

[Boxlicker101]

If you had the choice would you choose to be in a union or choose to make less money and worse benefits? What would your family want you to choose?

As far as I can see, this is not an honest question. It is like asking soebody if he has stopped beating his wife.

In my last job, I opted out of the union. I never actually was a member, but after I was able to opt out, I no longer needed to pay union dues or assessments. At no time did I ever consider the union to be on my side or on anybody's side but their own.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Oh my.....you are definitely a 20-something.

Of everything you attempted to say....I will only address the one item that even matters.......the decline in wages and such. I believe you first need to understand that some have wealth and some do not will never change. To expect it to be any different is just jealousy ....which your generation seems to excel at.

Of course some have wealth and others don't. Nobody is denying that. Shouldn't the ratios have remained at a similar level though and not changed and for the worse the moment a few details changed?

As for jealousy, fine. Just like class warfare and socialism they're words that are used as scare and shame tactics rather than addressing the problems which a very real and fairly universally agreed upon when all is said and done.

Ultimately the Tea Party and the Occupy Movement are about the same thing. Not enough cash. Nobody really gives a shit how much money the Lindsey Lohan makes as long as they can pay for the basics and a few luxury items. The same goes for taxes. (at least amongst intelligent folk. I'd be willing to bet you that if food, rent and health care and maybe college were free a vast majority of people wouldn't notice or care if they were taxed 75%) Not enough cash is the root of the problem here.

If you want to increase your status in your life, then do something about it. Perhaps that means make a different life choice, perhaps get better educated, perhaps move to a city where there are more opportunities to make better money. That is called personal responsibility which is greatly lacking in this country.

Of course, but I also want to create more opportunities for everybody. That's truly been what made America great was the ample opportunities that existed for everybody until roughly a century ago and even then they existed for most people until very recently.

Next, if unions were realistic and honest, then making a good work environment and decent wages would be fine. However, when the desire for money and power take over....there is no realism. It is about getting the most a union can possibly get (even if that means the company is no longer able to sustain itself). For a union to go on strike or think about it (as in my case when they were upset about going from a 6 day to a 5 day work week), then that is nothing but pure greed.

Of course the desire for money is the driving goal. It's funny that anybody ever thought it was anything else. Of course the Unions is getting the most they can possibly get. That's there sole fucking purpose in existing. Just as the employers purpose is to get as much labor for as little pay. I don't know the exact details of your individual case obviously but unless the company was losing money taking away a day is kinda wrong.

The unions have to understand, as do the management, that working together and being reasonable is best for BOTH sides.

(It is also going to go bad when unions are corrupt...and that does happen).

Declining average wages shows who's more corrupt and who's winning the fight. I doubt many unions are corrupt, just as I don't think the majority of the rich/employers are corrupt. While nobody wants the company dead that doesn't ultimately mean that everybody is on the same team, especially as a company increases in size. There is a very good reason you don't see unions often in companies small enough that everybody has either met the owner or at least someone who personally knows the owner.

It's not exactly complicated, economies work on the same basic principles as ecosystems. There's a great circle of life and it works much much better when all the parts are in their proper proportions. The more lopsided it gets one way or the other the more problems you have.

p.s.....total side note.....Thank you for your service!

You're welcome.

 

[koalabear]

Cool thread, now that it s not about Michigan.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Cool thread, now that it s not about Michigan.

Michigan is a sad sad place and they will continue to deteriorate until they decide that they are worth investing in themselves.

 

[koalabear]

Michigan is a sad sad place and they will continue to deteriorate until they decide that they are worth investing in themselves.

They know they aren't worth the trouble, you don't. The UP is great though.

 

[bra_man69]

Cool thread, now that it s not about Michigan.

Hey kB notice how Sean slowly becoming his alt coach that he doesn't use anymore.

 

[Sean Renaud]

They know they aren't worth the trouble, you don't.

MAybe we can convince them otherwise. I mean we apparently got through to Florida and Ohio this year, why no Michigan in a few years? I figure sooner or later all those toothless inbred rednecks in the south have got to realize that it's better to tax us spoiled Californians and Snooty New Yorkers into paying for schools and medicine for their children than it is to grow up in trailer parks. I mean at some point the love of Bible and hatred of teh blacks has to give in doesn't it?