Which method for WHOLE SENTENCE emphasis?

[sr71plt]

Actually, you cannot give an authoritative answer to the question that I posed - unless the manual states what each of the responders personally prefers to read.

This is idiotic--as I posted on your other similar question. I wouldn't suggest you quit your day job for the world of professional writing.

 

[lovecraft68]

In which case, lovecraft68, in which way would you do a whole sentence? Would like to hear what method other people prefer to read / write if possible. m(_ _)m

Ysoi

Personally, I would not.

I'm not saying there is not a proper way to do it, but I think of writing in terms of how people speak.

When someone is speaking I have heard them stress a word as in my example.

"You're thinking of doing that?"

However, I cannot imagine someone somehow stressing an entire series of words in a sentence or conversation.

To me it would sound like an exaggerated William Shatner.

There's.... something on the wing! Some...thing!

 

[ishtat]

Cms.

"Italics for emphasis. Good writers use italics for emphasis only as an occasional adjunct to efficient sentence structure. Overused italics quickly lose their force. Seldom should as much as a sentence be italicized for emphasis, and never a whole passage."

CMS 7.49 page 260 15th edition.

Initial capitals, once used to lend importance to certain words, are now used only ironically.

"OK, so Im a Bad Mother," admitted Mary cheerfully.


"Capitalizing an entire word for emphasis is rarely appropriate."

CMS 7.50 page 2291 15th edition.


"Use of the exclamation point. An exclamation point (which should be used sparingly to be effective) marks an outcry or an emphatic or an ironic comment."

CMS 6.76 page 250 15th edition.

CMS doesn't even consider most of the methods of emphasis suggested by the thread starter as having any legitimacy.

I would like to emphasise in italics of course, "only as an occasional adjunct to efficient sentence structure."

Now does anyone want to comment (with appropriate emphasis) on my using British style punctuation when quoting CMS?

 

[Ysoi]

However, I cannot imagine someone somehow stressing an entire series of words in a sentence or conversation.

To me it would sound like an exaggerated William Shatner.

There's.... something on the wing! Some...thing!

Hi Lovecraft68!

Thanks for the reply!

In my (first submitted) story I wrote the following :

(long paragraph)... The thought was terrifying! What if they hurt her? What if...

What if they wanted her again?

The thought made my blood run cold. Surely they would. Surely no normal man or woman could experience ...(long paragraph)

Looking at it now I think that perhaps I could have emphasised just "again"... I also put that line on it's own, separate from the other paragraphs, so perhaps that was already emphasis enough even without the bold... In my notepad version, though, it was just written as :

What if they wanted her again?!

To be honest I prefer that to bold, but I didn't want to annoy the punctuation critics.

Ysoi

 

[Ysoi]

"Italics for emphasis. Good writers use italics for emphasis only as an occasional adjunct to efficient sentence structure. Overused italics quickly lose their force. Seldom should as much as a sentence be italicized for emphasis, and never a whole passage."

CMS 7.49 page 260 15th edition.

Initial capitals, once used to lend importance to certain words, are now used only ironically.

"OK, so Im a Bad Mother," admitted Mary cheerfully.

"Capitalizing an entire word for emphasis is rarely appropriate."

CMS 7.50 page 2291 15th edition.

"Use of the exclamation point. An exclamation point (which should be used sparingly to be effective) marks an outcry or an emphatic or an ironic comment."

CMS 6.76 page 250 15th edition.

CMS doesn't even consider most of the methods of emphasis suggested by the thread starter as having any legitimacy.

I would like to emphasise in italics of course, "only as an occasional adjunct to efficient sentence structure."

Now does anyone want to comment (with appropriate emphasis) on my using British style punctuation when quoting CMS?

I'm grateful for your informative reply!

Please note that I was asking for people's preferences on what they would like to read - not on how it should be written - but as I said to one other, I am interested in knowing the official version as well. This is because even though I don't expect to be published :

(a) I can adjust myself to other people's preferences if it helps them / literotica.

(b) I'm used to writing my stories in XML, and have written a reader to format that XML for me. Having it convert text to italics / bold / dark red / whatever is very easy.

Beyond that, though, I hadn't really thought about the use of initial caps as irony. Perhaps because we don't see it that often? Anyway, thanks again. Most important thing I've learnt - and something you've stressed - is to keep it all to a minimum. Looking back at my stuff now, I think sometimes I've done a whole (short) sentence where a word might have sufficed. ( * - _ - * )

Ysoi

 

[Ysoi]

The true question :

To anyone who feels like responding!
Given that people are settling on punctuation and italics...

Which of the following?

this is a normal question?
this isn't a normal question?
this isn't a normal question?
this isn't a normal question?!

For me, it is usually easy to spot bold, but not so easy with italics... Perhaps a problem with the fonts used (as well as my eyes!)? Any comments ref that extra exclamation?

Ysoi

 

[colddiesel]

To anyone who feels like responding!
Given that people are settling on punctuation and italics...

Which of the following?

this is a normal question?
this isn't a normal question?
this isn't a normal question?
this isn't a normal question?!

For me, it is usually easy to spot bold, but not so easy with italics... Perhaps a problem with the fonts used (as well as my eyes!)? Any comments ref that extra exclamation?

Ysoi

Without more context, the answer has to be 'none of the above.'

1. "This" needs a capital T in all cases.

2. You appear to have missed n't from the first example.

3. All four examples appear to be statements rather than questions, so none of the ? marks is appropriate.

4. A ? followed by a ! is horrible. Don't do it.

You are not improving the clarity of your writing in any way by trying to add further emphasis than convention allows. Follow what Og and sr71plt have suggested.

 

[Ysoi]

Without more context, the answer has to be 'none of the above.'

1. "This" needs a capital T in all cases.

My apologies, I thought it would have been obvious that these were examples so that people could concentrate on the readability of the writing itself, not the words.

2. You appear to have missed n't from the first example.

No. That was deliberate as it was there to establish the baseline un-emphasised writing.

3. All four examples appear to be statements rather than questions, so none of the ? marks is appropriate.

Did you at any stage attempt to assign me some normal level of intelligence? Were you deliberately trying to pick faults rather than say which was more readable?

4. A ? followed by a ! is horrible. Don't do it.

Thank you for that response.
I put that in as at the time I wrote the message - and as I write this reply now - the poll shows people prefer punctuation to any other method of whole sentence emphasis. As my example punctuation involved ?! / !! / ?!. / etc it made sense to add that line and then point it out.

You are not improving the clarity of your writing in any way by trying to add further emphasis than convention allows. Follow what Og and sr71plt have suggested.

Yes Sir/Madame?
I believe from memory that Og answered the question posed by the poll, whereas sr71 did not. Despite this I have already stated my interest in the official version - what we should do on (I'm guessing) printed paper - and have repeatedly stated that I am interested in preferences for my own and for what I consider to be good, reasonable and considerate reasons. If you're interested in doing something other than lecturing or fault-finding, you might want to look at previous posts to where I mention problems with each emphasis type for someone whose eyes / brain is like my own. Which may or may not be normal.

For me italics are often hard to read, hence I use bold if possible - but find it too heavy where necessity requires a whole sentence be emphasised. I am trying to find out if other people have similar likes/dislikes for their own reasons, other than a manual telling them so.

Ysoi

 

[PennLady]

Please note that I was asking for people's preferences on what they would like to read - not on how it should be written - but as I said to one other, I am interested in knowing the official version as well. This is because even though I don't expect to be published :

I am just guessing here, but it seems to me that the standards may have developed from preferences until those preferences became standard. I.e., it may be that over the years, publishers realized a preference on the part of readers for italics for emphasis, hence that became the standard.

This is not to say the standard works for everyone, but if it works for most, then it probably stays the standard.

It doesn't always work that way, at least in the US. It's been discussed many times how italics used to be used to express thoughts/internal dialogue, and now that is no longer the standard. That's a clear case to me where the standard is not my preference, but if you want to be published, you must (or at least should) adhere to the standard.

 

[oggbashan]

I have suggested in the thread for word emphasis, and here, that a choice of words is a way to show emphasis. I mean it.

Shakespeare's texts were printed from rough copies. The originals, and I have facsimilies of some of the plays, have no emphasis in the text.

Yet anyone reading the plain text of Shakespeare will know, most of the time, which words and which sentences require emphasis. Shakespeare's choice of words, their position in a sentence, the sentence's position in a speech, all show what should be emphasised.

Shakespeare's emphasis still survives dozens of editors, dozens of theatre productions amateur and professional, and incompetent actors.

I'm not Shakespeare yet I try to give emphasis without using any tags.

Which sentence above has emphasis?

 

[Ysoi]

I have suggested in the thread for word emphasis, and here, that a choice of words is a way to show emphasis. I mean it.

Shakespeare's texts were printed from rough copies. The originals, and I have facsimilies of some of the plays, have no emphasis in the text.

Yet anyone reading the plain text of Shakespeare will know, most of the time, which words and which sentences require emphasis. Shakespeare's choice of words, their position in a sentence, the sentence's position in a speech, all show what should be emphasised.

Shakespeare's emphasis still survives dozens of editors, dozens of theatre productions amateur and professional, and incompetent actors.

I'm not Shakespeare yet I try to give emphasis without using any tags.

Which sentence above has emphasis?

Unfortunately, I can't tell you for sure - each time I try to work out where it might be, I find different positions or even whole sentences that could be emphasised. Furthermore I would argue that I don't want my reader to have to guess not only whether I have used emphasis, but where it is as well.

Sometimes when I use emphasis, I go back and forth over a sentence multiple times until I find the word or collection of words that to me require a little boost. Some minor emphasis which really highlights what is to me the important word, rather than all of the other words that with a different character might be more important.

In illustration here is a quote from the quick story that I am working on now :

"I got through a whole year, Doctor Lerak, without letting a single student die. "

Where is the emphasis?

If you say "a whole year" (time is important), "Doctor"/"Doctor Lerak" (disdain / sarcasm?) or "single student" (number of students) you are wrong - although I could imagine scenarios in which each would be valid. No, the point of this sentence is to illustrate that success or failure depends solely upon whether or not a student dies.

Whilst I had entertained the concept of emphasising words without emphasis and not thought too deeply about it, I am afraid that your example has shown me how perilous such a thing could be. Even using an unusual variant of a word might not be obvious, or might cause a character to appear to know something or speak in a way that I don't intend them to.

If tags are no good, then perhaps CAPS might suit you?

Ysoi

 

[PennLady]

In illustration here is a quote from the quick story that I am working on now :

"I got through a whole year, Doctor Lerak, without letting a single student die. "

Where is the emphasis?

The issue here is -- where do you want the emphasis to be? Without the context of the rest of the conversation or scene with characters, it's impossible to tell. This is not up to the reader, it's up to the writer.

 

[Ysoi]

The issue here is -- where do you want the emphasis to be? Without the context of the rest of the conversation or scene with characters, it's impossible to tell. This is not up to the reader, it's up to the writer.

Um...

Just checking, but are you talking to me or to or Oggbashan? I ask because you've quoted me, but not addressed him/her.

If it's to me, you should see that my whole post was making pretty much that point. The selection that I quoted from my current story was in fact meant to show just how easily a reader can pick multiple incorrect sections as being those that he/she thinks I wished to emphasise. It is thus my job to unambiguously show what I want to emphasise rather than rely on the reader's guesswork.

I will also add, though, that in this particular case knowing the context and characters probably wouldn't help.

Ysoi

 

[PennLady]

Um...

Just checking, but are you talking to me or to or Oggbashan? I ask because you've quoted me, but not addressed him/her.

If it's to me, you should see that my whole post was making pretty much that point. The selection that I quoted from my current story was in fact meant to show just how easily a reader can pick multiple incorrect sections as being those that he/she thinks I wished to emphasise. It is thus my job to unambiguously show what I want to emphasise rather than rely on the reader's guesswork.

I will also add, though, that in this particular case knowing the context and characters probably wouldn't help.

Ysoi

I think that post confused me, and my response reflects that.

However, giving only one sentence as an example, devoid of context, is not a good example. It's impossible to answer your question, even if it's a rhetorical question. If you had provided the preceding paragraphs, I'm sure most if not all of us could have figured out where the emphasis went. But to give us that one sentence in a vacuum -- that's not a fair example.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

To me it would sound like an exaggerated William Shatner.

There's.... something on the wing! Some...thing!

On the wing? Wasn't that John Lithgow?

Anyway, just to add a quick point: If you use extra punctuation, not only is it improper, but it appears, IMO, juvenile, like it's being made overly dramatic. It's not that being proper is a must, but then, you don't want it to appear as though some fifteen year old just texted the whole story to their twitter account, either.

Q_C

 

[PennLady]

On the wing? Wasn't that John Lithgow?

Sorry, couldn't resist. John Lithgow was in the segment "Nightmare at 20,000 Feet" in the Twilight Zone movie from 1983. William Shatner played the same role in the original TV series.

Anyway, just to add a quick point: If you use extra punctuation, not only is it improper, but it appears, IMO, juvenile, like it's being made overly dramatic. It's not that being proper is a must, but then, you don't want it to appear as though some fifteen year old just texted the whole story to their twitter account, either.

Q_C

Have to agree with that. It's good to go outside the rules occasionally, but too much just makes it seem like too much.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Sorry, couldn't resist. John Lithgow was in the segment "Nightmare at 20,000 Feet" in the Twilight Zone movie from 1983. William Shatner played the same role in the original TV series.

Ahhh. Thanks for the heads up. Y'know, except for Star Trek and his cameo in "Showtime" ("this guy is the worst actor...") Shatner isn't particularly memorable.

Have to agree with that. It's good to go outside the rules occasionally, but too much just makes it seem like too much.

Uh-huh. Aside from a thought sequence, I'm not sure why someone would emphasize an entire sentence, but thoughts are in their own category, and I think italics are pretty much universal there.

Perhaps isolating the sentence might be best:

What if they came back? What if they came right to the front door, knocked, and when she opened the door, she found herself face to face with them? Her attackers; her abductors.

What if they took her again?

The thought was enough to bring her to a halt, standing in the doorway, so powerless within the idea that she couldn't bring her feet to move...

Hmmm....

A could sentence fragments here and there don't hurt, and a run-on sentence in the right place can be very effective, but not an entire disregard for protocol. The tactic distracts from the message.

Q_C

 

[Ysoi]

I think that post confused me, and my response reflects that.

However, giving only one sentence as an example, devoid of context, is not a good example. It's impossible to answer your question, even if it's a rhetorical question. If you had provided the preceding paragraphs, I'm sure most if not all of us could have figured out where the emphasis went. But to give us that one sentence in a vacuum -- that's not a fair example.

You argue that I should show emphasis where it is required as most people can't guess.

I say that I was agreeing with that and illustrating that. I also say :

I will also add, though, that in this particular case knowing the context and characters probably wouldn't help.

You then say :

If you had provided the preceding paragraphs, I'm sure most if not all of us could have figured out where the emphasis went.

Which :

(a) seems to me at least to be in slight contradiction to what you wrote firstly.

(b) only illustrates my point anyway! Who cares if most people (/ literotica) can guess correctly? Isn't it more important that the reader knows without effort and with no ambiguity whatsoever exactly what it is that I have written? Invisible emphasis doesn't seem to supply that.

Ysoi

 

[TxRad]

You argue that I should show emphasis where it is required as most people can't guess.

I say that I was agreeing with that and illustrating that. I also say :



You then say :



Which :

(a) seems to me at least to be in slight contradiction to what you wrote firstly.

(b) only illustrates my point anyway! Who cares if most people (/ literotica) can guess correctly? Isn't it more important that the reader knows without effort and with no ambiguity whatsoever exactly what it is that I have written? Invisible emphasis doesn't seem to supply that.

Ysoi

You have been given the correct answer to your question by four different people and give several options by two or three more. What else do you want?

If you don't like the answers to your question, it isn't our fault. Do it like you want, whether it is right wrong or indifferent. It's your story after all.

 

[Ysoi]

Why quote me?

Originally Posted by Ysoi View Post
You argue that I should show emphasis where it is required as most people can't guess.

I say that I was agreeing with that and illustrating that. I also say :

You then say :

Which :

(a) seems to me at least to be in slight contradiction to what you wrote firstly.

(b) only illustrates my point anyway! Who cares if most people (/ literotica) can guess correctly? Isn't it more important that the reader knows without effort and with no ambiguity whatsoever exactly what it is that I have written? Invisible emphasis doesn't seem to supply that.

Ysoi

You have been given the correct answer to your question by four different people and give several options by two or three more. What else do you want?

If you don't like the answers to your question, it isn't our fault. Do it like you want, whether it is right wrong or indifferent. It's your story after all.

Why quote a section that is irrelevant to what you then say?

I have not only indicated my gratitude to those who have answered the question that I asked, but also to those who have quoted manuals. Where I have indicated anything else, that has been towards those who refuse to answer the question and/or quote manuals most likely made for paper as bibles even though literotica is an on-screen website.

If it makes you feel powerful and authoritative to tell others what they should do without looking at what they've asked and said, please go ahead though.

Ysoi

 

[TxRad]

Why quote a section that is irrelevant to what you then say?

I have not only indicated my gratitude to those who have answered the question that I asked, but also to those who have quoted manuals. Where I have indicated anything else, that has been towards those who refuse to answer the question and/or quote manuals most likely made for paper as bibles even though literotica is an on-screen website.

If it makes you feel powerful and authoritative to tell others what they should do without looking at what they've asked and said, please go ahead though.

Ysoi

Maybe you should go back and reread this thread. I did.

 

[PennLady]

You argue that I should show emphasis where it is required as most people can't guess.

I say that I was agreeing with that and illustrating that. I also say :

(a) seems to me at least to be in slight contradiction to what you wrote firstly.

(b) only illustrates my point anyway! Who cares if most people (/ literotica) can guess correctly? Isn't it more important that the reader knows without effort and with no ambiguity whatsoever exactly what it is that I have written? Invisible emphasis doesn't seem to supply that.

Ysoi

Okay, I have to step back. I'm rather frazzled right now, and my thoughts are getting crossed and/or not coming out properly. No one's fault, just that kind of day.

So -- in not completely reading the posts, as I was reading too fast I guess, I misunderstood a couple of things, and missed some relevant points. Fine.

I will say this:

If you provide a sentence devoid of context, then no, no one will be able to correctly see where the writer wants the emphasis on the word. You're right. I still say that's not a fair example.

If you are going to tell me that providing context still won't help the reader know where the emphasis goes, then I think you're not writing clearly. I'm not saying these things will always be crystal clear, but if the scene or context does not give some indication of what part of that sentence is important, then I'd say something is missing.

And: YES, the emphasis on any word or sentence should be clear to the reader, and the standard way of doing that is to use italicized text. Even for on-screen stories.

 

[Ysoi]

Maybe you should go back and reread this thread. I did.

You have, and yet you decline to argue any of the points that I made or in fact respond to anything that I said? I see no point in wasting any further time in correspondence with you. :|

Ysoi

 

[TxRad]

You have, and yet you decline to argue any of the points that I made or in fact respond to anything that I said? I see no point in wasting any further time in correspondence with you. :|

Ysoi

Discussion is better.

In fact, I've responded to most everything you've said.

And last but not least. It is me who is wasting my time.

 

[Ysoi]

Is something missing?

If you are going to tell me that providing context still won't help the reader know where the emphasis goes, then I think you're not writing clearly. I'm not saying these things will always be crystal clear, but if the scene or context does not give some indication of what part of that sentence is important, then I'd say something is missing.

Hi PennLady!

For your perusal, here is the entirety of my current quick story from its start up until just after the sentence under discussion. To save you the pain of having to read my attempt at writing I've marked it in red so that you can find it quickly if you want to.

"Last year, Doctor Lerak, I was given a bonus of one hundred and twenty thousand credits for personally guiding this school to its first award for excellence in conduct. Do you know what it was that I managed that earned me that award?"

I shake my head, too frightened to speak, the ropes that bind me to the chair in which I am sat no longer a factor in my inability to escape. The fact that I am almost naked, that I sit in my underwear alone, also unimportant. She would be just a fraction taller than myself were we to stand face to face, but she seems to tower above me now, and I know that it is not just the advantage of the fact that she stands whereas I sit.

"No, of course you don’t... You’ve forgotten, haven’t you. What it’s like for orphaned girls..."

She turns away as she speaks, but even if I were clothed and unbound, and even if her assistant weren’t stood behind me, her heavy breasts pressed against the top of my head, I would have stared at her. There is something about her voice that catches my attention. A hint of happiness rather than the anger and bitterness that her words would suggest. Is it for my sake? Is it a moment of wistful fantasy, that perhaps it could be her instead of I who had forgotten her childhood?

"I got through a whole year, Doctor Lerak, without letting a single student die. Ninety four girls from the roughest of the front-line zones. Twelve instructors from the same.

To me the emphasis that I have removed from that line is an important part of the scene that hopefully establishes within the reader's mind just what it is that matters to the as-yet-un-named captor. Now later speech hopefully strengthens this within the reader's mind, but I consider this moment to be very important in setting her character. Right from the get-go, this captor is angry that she got an award just because no-one died. She isn't proud that she went a whole year. She isn't proud that she kept the number of deaths low - she's angry that she can be rewarded for not letting someone die.

Having said that, I have at this stage had little opportunity to introduce her to the reader, and I do not believe that it is clear that she would be angry at such a thing. Do you still think that there is something missing from my writing?

Other than style and grammar and so on that is. :O m(_ _)m

Ysoi

To those interested, the emphasised word was "die"