What happened to all of the doom and gloom economic threads?

[pete]

- When we have a recession and business are struggling, it's a problem and it's Obama's fault.

- When we have a recovery where businesses are turning fantastic profits, it's also a problem and clearly Obama's fault.

For these die-hard 110% partisan righties, it's simply impossible for there to be good news when Obama is in power. Bad news is bad news - and good news is also somehow bad news.

the origin of the recession obviously preceeded obama, no one argues that. the true origin rests somewhere in a myriad of reasons, some dealing with congressional latitude towards lending and banking, some dealing with the lenders, brokers and bankers themselves.

but it's folly to assume all is well simply because *some* corporations are turning profits. as explained above, profits are easy to come by when the labor force is slashed. what about all the businesses that have shuttered, or filed chapter 11 and are not included in this wonderful profit news? a better indicator would be overall national output, or GDP.

Listen, businesses aren't hiring very fast not because of what happens in the Oval Office. They're not hiring very fast because consumer demand is rather weak and forecasted to remain mediocre throughout 2011.

maybe you missed this explanation.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Just now reading Shakespeare? No, Again.

Bastiat? Studying all of the old school Libertarians.. Such diversity of thought.

Let me know when you make it into THIS century with your economic basics..

I'm sorry, but you are still under the delusion that there is such a thing as "new economics" that have evolved as our society as evolved. You seem to keep pressing home the message that dead means invalid and archaic.

Why don't you cite for me the economists I should be reading, and I will...

That's where we differ.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

It's tough to not bullseye such an easy target. You've put yourself on the same intellectual reading level as the General Board psychotic "conservative", you can't blame anyone for that but yourself, maybe him.

Perhaps if your source material included someone who just a little to the left of Mussolini. I mean Malkin? Pajamasmedia? Really? You're just making it too easy.

Mussolini was a Statist. To go to his Left would be Marx and Engels. That puts me far to the right of him. Now, YOU might be to the Left of him, especially if you think the way forward was the way Obama took, which mirrored what the Austrian Statists did in 1918 and had to be addressed in 1919 by the "failed policies" of Libertarian Economics before the people starved to death.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Mussolini was a Statist. To go to his Left would be Marx and Engels. That puts me far to the right of him. Now, YOU might be to the Left of him, especially if you think the way forward was the way Obama took, which mirrored what the Austrian Statists did in 1918 and had to be addressed in 1919 by the "failed policies" of Libertarian Economics before the people starved to death.

Mussolini was a Fascist dictator, about as far to the right as they come once he actually had any sort of political power.

I am most definitely to the left of that, and happily so.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

I'm sorry, but you are still under the delusion that there is such a thing as "new economics" that have evolved as our society as evolved. You seem to keep pressing home the message that dead means invalid and archaic.

Why don't you cite for me the economists I should be reading, and I will...

That's where we differ.

Believe me, I'm thankful for the differences.

You could begin with Nobel Laureates from this century as a starting point. You know, instead of focusing on the works of those who have been dead for a century or more. Economics has changed in the last century, considering the way economies interact on a global scale now that was impossible then.

 

[firespin]

- When we have a recession and business are struggling, it's a problem and it's Obama's fault.

- When we have a recovery where businesses are turning fantastic profits, it's also a problem and clearly Obama's fault.

For these die-hard 110% partisan righties, it's simply impossible for there to be good news when Obama is in power. Bad news is bad news - and good news is also somehow bad news.



Listen, businesses aren't hiring very fast not because of what happens in the Oval Office. They're not hiring very fast because consumer demand is rather weak and forecasted to remain mediocre throughout 2011.

But I thought the recession was all Bush's fault.

Are you trying to tell me that the President doesn't really control the economy?

 

[Beco]

- When we have a recession and business are struggling, it's a problem and it's Obama's fault.

- When we have a recovery where businesses are turning fantastic profits, it's also a problem and clearly Obama's fault.

For these die-hard 110% partisan righties, it's simply impossible for there to be good news when Obama is in power. Bad news is bad news - and good news is also somehow bad news.



Listen, businesses aren't hiring very fast not because of what happens in the Oval Office. They're not hiring very fast because consumer demand is rather weak and forecasted to remain mediocre throughout 2011.

The economy is on Obama's watch, thats it. Deal with it in 2012.

 

[trysail]

http://www.haapala.com/sepp/twtwfiles/2010/TWTW 2010-11-20.pdf

By Ken Haapala, Executive Vice President Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP)

THE NUMBER OF THE WEEK is 4.7 GWe to 8.5 GWe, or the nominal electrical generating capacity of wind installed in China in 2008 as compared to that installed in the US. So much for the claim that China is leading in wind - at least in installed capacity. (For wind generation, installed capacity is not a particularly meaningful measure because nature, not human operators, controls the amount of electricity generated at a specific time. Thus, wind is unreliable and requires expensive and inefficient back-up.)

Summarizing the actual electricity capacity being installed in China as compared to the US:

Nuclear power plants under construction: China 24, US 1
Hydroelectricity capacity added in 2008: China 20.1 GWe, US ZERO.
Coal fired electricity capacity added in 2008: China 658 GWe, US 0.7 GWe.
Wind generated electricity capacity added in 2008: China 4.7 GWe, US 8.5 GWe.

Contrary to what politicians and alternative energy promoters claim, China is not in a race with the US to build alternative sources of electricity. It is in a race to build all the affordable, reliable electricity-generating capacity it can from traditional sources for the benefit of its citizens, their children, and grandchildren.

The sources for the above are the Department of Energy and the World Nuclear Association

 

[trysail]

It seems everyone is concerned about coal. Dirty, filthy, cheap coal that provides many of us power for wonderful things like lights, heat and hot water.

Without coal man made climate change would be a discussion that only obscure academics would have.
First the good news.
There is so much coal in the ground humanity couldn’t burn it in a thousand years if it tried.
Now the bad news.
The really big piles of easily extractable coal left in the world are located a long,long way from the vast majority of the people who want things like lights , heat and hot water.
Transporting coal is expensive because a ton of coal literally weighs a ton.

Coal that can be mined in Wyoming at a cost of 70 cents/Million Btu’s ends up costing $4/Million Btu’s by the time it reaches people in New Jersey who prefer not to sit in the dark. It costs more then $5/million Btu’s by the time it reaches folks in China that would like to have a hot cup of tea.

In economics there is a concept of that the boundary condition for price on a product is the cost of a substitute good. (I don’t think the folks at the IPCC who worked out emission projections are aware of this)

In China, a brand new state of the art Westinghouse AP1000 1 GW nuclear reactor costs $1.9 billion to build. To fuel a 1 GW coal fired electricity plant for a year costs in excess of $300 million per year and of course there is a cost to build the coal fired plant. Coal for electricity generation in China has crossed the economic boundary condition threshold. A 7 year payback period in fuel cost savings is a no-brainer.

On might then ask why the Chinese aren’t switching to nuclear since it’s cheaper. The answer is they are. At the current time there are industrial limitations as well as limitations to properly trained nuclear construction personnel and operators. One does not create an experienced nuclear plant manager overnight. It takes years. Doubling the number of trained personnel every 5 years would be pretty close to ‘as fast as humanly possible’.
The Chinese plan on getting to at least 70 GW of nuclear power by 2020. Which means adding 20GW to their existing 10 by 2015. Then adding 40GW in the 2015 to 2020 time frame.
Unfortunately the Chinese need 1,600 GW of electric generating capacity if all there citizens are going to be able to enjoy a things like lights and a hot cup of tea. With a 5 year doubling of nuclear build rate it will be somewhere around the 2025 time frame before the Chinese can even consider phasing out using expensive coal.

In any case, those linear emission projections beyond 2025 are highly questionable. The Chinese aren’t burning coal because they like it or it’s cheap, they are burning coal because it’s going to take at least 10 years and more likely 15 years to scale their nuclear power industry up to size.

In the US the math is a bit more complicated. That same Westinghouse AP1000 1GW nuclear reactor that can be built in China for less then $2 billion costs more then $6 billion in the US. A 20 year payback period in fuel savings isn’t all that financially interesting.

In order for it to be interesting one would have to ‘need’ another electric generating facility and be located a long way from Wyoming. In the US a new 1 GW ‘clean coal’ without carbon capture electricity plant costs about $4 billion to build. Justifying an extra $2-$3 billion for a nuclear plant can be done given the costs for coal on much the Eastern Seaboard with an 8-12 year payback in fuel cost savings.
Another problem is justifying a ‘need’ for a new 1GW plant at all. In the US we have 450 GW of natural gas generating capacity that is idle the majority of the time. Improved ‘demand management’ and various conservation measures negates the need to build anything in much of the US.

http://judithcurry.com/2010/12/01/skeptical-discussion/#comment-17241

 

[jeninflorida]

Huh? The Republicans just got done expanding it's size, scope, and cost in completely unprecidented ways. Now you want them to flip-flop?

okay, so bush made the government bigger.

obama put the government on steroids by his massive expansion.....

guess what? there is no money in the piggy bank.

stop looking at the past, you sound like a 2 year old. "but he did it!"

I don't think going back to the tax table of Regan, Carter, or the ones before...would be good. give the government a dollar, they spend two.

 

[jeninflorida]

The economy is on Obama's watch, thats it. Deal with it in 2012.

...and we know that obama is all bout private business. obama loves business.
oh wait, obama hates private sector business, well everything except the company that published obama's book

 

[mercury14]

The stock market rose sharpy today with a long list of positive reports about the economy. Especially the one about small business hiring surpassing expectations.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Stock...tml?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=




Conservatives are pissed at the news.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

The stock market rose sharpy today with a long list of positive reports about the economy. Especially the one about small business hiring surpassing expectations.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Stock...tml?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=




Conservatives are pissed at the news.

This is obviously a credit to the Republicans who aren't even in office yet..

 

[koalabear]

Hiring at Christmas time, how unusably.

 

[mercury14]

Hiring at Christmas time, how unusably.

MUST.... KEEEP..... TRYING..... TO PORTRAY ECONOMIC DOOM....





Moron, seasonal hiring is already included in forecasting.

 

[Beco]

The stock market rose sharpy today with a long list of positive reports about the economy. Especially the one about small business hiring surpassing expectations.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Stock...tml?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=


Conservatives are pissed at the news.

Cool, so I'm heading out to buy my new Mercedes!!!! Yipeeeeee, we're saved!

 

[mercury14]

Cool, so I'm heading out to buy my new Mercedes!!!! Yipeeeeee, we're saved!

Shrug. My assets increased 40k today so I actually could go out and buy a new Mercedes.

 

[koalabear]

MUST.... KEEEP..... TRYING..... TO PORTRAY ECONOMIC DOOM....





Moron, seasonal hiring is already included in forecasting.

Well great, I see no need for extending unemployment benefits again then.

 

[Ham Murabi]

Mussolini was a Fascist dictator, about as far to the right as they come once he actually had any sort of political power.

I am most definitely to the left of that, and happily so.

What were Mussolini's right wing policies?

 

[mercury14]

Stocks were way up again today.



Where's our deflation + hyperinflation by the way? How long am I going to make money before it happens?

 

[kbate]

Stocks were way up again today.



Where's our deflation + hyperinflation by the way? How long am I going to make money before it happens?

Please explain the theory of "Quantitative Easing" once more and why the Fed felt it was necessary to create 600 billion new dollars to spur new lending?

Do you think, maybe the stock market reacts to things such as this in order to take quick profits from massive Fed moves? Do you think, that since many people are looking at a 4.6% tax hike that they might take their profits now causing some market ups/downs?

No? It is the Obama Economic Miracle every time the market goes up a point and the Inherited Bush Economic Disaster whenever it loses a point?

 

[Byron In Exile]

Please explain the theory of "Quantitative Easing" once more and why the Fed felt it was necessary to create 600 billion new dollars to spur new lending?

Do you think, maybe the stock market reacts to things such as this in order to take quick profits from massive Fed moves? Do you think, that since many people are looking at a 4.6% tax hike that they might take their profits now causing some market ups/downs?

No? It is the Obama Economic Miracle every time the market goes up a point and the Inherited Bush Economic Disaster whenever it loses a point?

Obama makes the market go up, the ghost of Bush makes it go down.

Every sensible investor knows this.

The question is, simply, can Obama defeat the ghost of Bush?

Betting on "no" has enriched me thus far.

 

[unregistered]

 

[mercury14]

The economy is on Obama's watch, thats it. Deal with it in 2012.

That's why you need to keep up your doom & gloom spin on the economy. Obama + improved economy in 2012 + Republican (Palin) = four more years.

 

[mercury14]

Please explain the theory of "Quantitative Easing" once more and why the Fed felt it was necessary to create 600 billion new dollars to spur new lending?

Do you think, maybe the stock market reacts to things such as this in order to take quick profits from massive Fed moves? Do you think, that since many people are looking at a 4.6% tax hike that they might take their profits now causing some market ups/downs?

No? It is the Obama Economic Miracle every time the market goes up a point and the Inherited Bush Economic Disaster whenever it loses a point?

The Fed is pumping 600 bil into the economy to increase the speed of the recovery.

And sorry, the market has been on an upward trend now for over a year-and-a-half. You're choosing to ignore this fact and take a tiny segment of that time (when the market went up sharply) and make a negative generalization about the recovery.

Shrug. Keep your assets in low-risk places if you wish. The rest of us will be making money during the recovery. I'm about to go double a large investment I made in Red Hat (ticker: RHT).

And yes I could buy a Mercedes with my profit.