When is NO really NO?

[AltLore]

As mentioned earlier a supirisingly good discussion of the topic. Good points from both sides of the fence.
No always means no, since we ended slavery and abolished the rule of thumb, the majority of the world has the right to say no.
How ever this is not so much a dom/sub issue as it is a relationship issue. This could be pete and sue vanilla down the road. Pete feeling a little desparaged that Sue V wont let him in the back door.

The sub clearly does not feel they have entered a stage in the relationship where she is prepared or willing to surrender to his every desire. This is a pretty common problem in relationships of all walks. How ever because he is fuffilling a dominant role he seems to expect it just works that way?

Well it doesnt except on some of the seedier forums wher people discuss a lot they have yet to achieve and via email and IM . The relationship needs work, no one walks into a relationship and hands themself over with complete abandon. So he can examine ways to increase the level of abandon, control and trust in the relationship or not.
End of story really, as dom/sub relationships are never excuse to be a bully any more than they are a reason to be a victim. At least not in any real manifest way that harms a persons psyche.

In theory M should be here seeking advice as it may be her duty to please him. Relationships are co-dependant though and his first duty is to his partners pleasure and well being too.

Good topic though...

 

[HussarVanburen]

My friend and I were discussing this, and for some reason, I thought of all the lovely advice you give.

My friend (let's call her Jenny) is in a Relationship with a master, and I would have to say they are a great match. Except on one issue.
Her Master (let's call him M) is very into anal play, and while she has softened her boundries on tongue/fingers, she is absolutly firm on NO when it comes to anal sex.
But M claims it is her duty to do whatever pleases him, even if ts not her liking. Her point is she has emotional connections to her reasoning, but feels torn between her hard boundry, and her duties to him.
So the question is; when is no really no?

My ten cents: I have never been into doing things for my partner that are absolute NOs, though I will explore if it is more of a fear than a hard line. If my M respected our relationship, he would realize the limits of his power, and respect and care for my feelings on any sexual issues we have.

Again, this isn't a "naw, it sounds icky" for her, due to her past, it is emotionally painful, scary, and in her mind, bringing old scars up to even think of anal at this time.

(ps no disrespect to any who enjoy anal activities )

A slave is absolutely beholden to serve her master unquestionably. She has no right to deny him her ass. She has no right to deny him anything.

 

[silenceisgolden]

As a sub this is how I see it:

I will do anything to please my Master. He knows this. He also knows what I am comfortable and uncomfortable doing due to past abuse. I put all of my trust and faith in Him. Because of this I expect him to know my boundaries and not push it because He has the ability to damage me physically and emotionally. If I were to tell Him no I don't feel comfortable having anal sex because I was anally raped by my father when I was a small child and it brings up bad memories I would expect my Master to agree because, although He wants to be pleased, I'm His property and He wants to protect/take care of me. If you know dragging a nail across the paint on your car is going to leave a scratch then why do it? Unless you want it to be scratched. Then that's a completely different story.

Point is, take care of your belongings.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Nothing in the world
is as soft and yielding as water.
Yet for dissolving the hard and inflexible,
nothing can surpass it.

The soft overcomes the hard;
the gentle overcomes the rigid.
Everyone knows this is true,
but few can put it into practice.

~Tao Te Ching: 78

 

[Bustymagoo]

Nothing in the world
is as soft and yielding as water.
Yet for dissolving the hard and inflexible,
nothing can surpass it.

The soft overcomes the hard;
the gentle overcomes the rigid.
Everyone knows this is true,
but few can put it into practice.

~Tao Te Ching: 78

exellent quote

 

[jadedgirl]

Let's get real here: No is no anytime it escapes someone's lips. To continue beyond that point is simply wrong....slave or no slave.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Let's get real here: No is no anytime it escapes someone's lips. To continue beyond that point is simply wrong....slave or no slave.

*deafening silence from worn-out, napping BDSM board*

 

[chy_girl]

Let's get real here: No is no anytime it escapes someone's lips. To continue beyond that point is simply wrong....slave or no slave.

No has escaped my lips more than once when a dragons tongue is involved... along with the phrase '*groans* Fucker!' Which is ironically how it earned its nickname.

That didn't mean I wanted to stop. That just means it stings like a bitch and please, please, please do it again.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Let's get real here: No is no anytime it escapes someone's lips. To continue beyond that point is simply wrong....slave or no slave.

I disagree. Once I said yes to being owned, my no's no longer have the same meaning with my PYL as before I was owned.

 

[Netzach]

Let's get real here: No is no anytime it escapes someone's lips. To continue beyond that point is simply wrong....slave or no slave.

I agree which is why I pretty much snipped the word out of my slave's vocabulary in regard to me, when he decided to be one. I'm unconcerned with the ethics of no means no, because I've effectively created a situation in which no isn't on the table.

If you're a Master/Mistress and you're encountering resistance all the damn time, you're not doing YOUR job.

 

[jadedgirl]

but in my opinion, and granted I am not in the role, but shouldn't a submissive willingly give to her Master...

if her will is to please him in all mannerisms and she does this with the knowledge that he will push her boundaries simply because he can, simply because it brings him joy and simply because he has her absolute trust in his hands...then shouldn't the Master know that she would not mutter the word "no" except under the extreme of circumstances, something that she truly feels she cannot handle? What he does with that "no" can be many things....he can stop, build her confidence, tell her why she needs it, (even respect her wishes) and use that as leverage to teach her a new horizon she has never crossed. It would seem he would accomplish more with a slight change of direction when she needs it most, instead of forging forward without regard at all.

Resistance is much like the rungs in a ladder...one afraid of heights will only climb so far, but with a little coaxing, a strong hand waiting to catch in case they fall, and they will climb to new heights, making the next climb up the ladder without fear, without hesitation...is there no Master who can view the situation in this teaching manner or is there not such a thing?

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

but in my opinion, and granted I am not in the role, but shouldn't a submissive willingly give to her Master...

if her will is to please him in all mannerisms and she does this with the knowledge that he will push her boundaries simply because he can, simply because it brings him joy and simply because he has her absolute trust in his hands...then shouldn't the Master know that she would not mutter the word "no" except under the extreme of circumstances, something that she truly feels she cannot handle? What he does with that "no" can be many things....he can stop, build her confidence, tell her why she needs it, (even respect her wishes) and use that as leverage to teach her a new horizon she has never crossed. It would seem he would accomplish more with a slight change of direction when she needs it most, instead of forging forward without regard at all.

Resistance is much like the rungs in a ladder...one afraid of heights will only climb so far, but with a little coaxing, a strong hand waiting to catch in case they fall, and they will climb to new heights, making the next climb up the ladder without fear, without hesitation...is there no Master who can view the situation in this teaching manner or is there not such a thing?

I think that you've expressed this eloquently. But it depends on the relationship, the individuals, the history. Sometimes frontal attacks are best for everyone. I would say that if someone tells you explicitly that X is an emotional minefield, it's idiotic to immediately charge in and set up your Slip'n'Slide.®

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I agree which is why I pretty much snipped the word out of my slave's vocabulary in regard to me, when he decided to be one. I'm unconcerned with the ethics of no means no, because I've effectively created a situation in which no isn't on the table.

If you're a Master/Mistress and you're encountering resistance all the damn time, you're not doing YOUR job.

QFT

 

[jadedgirl]

I think that you've expressed this eloquently. But it depends on the relationship, the individuals, the history. Sometimes frontal attacks are best for everyone. I would say that if someone tells you explicitly that X is an emotional minefield, it's idiotic to immediately charge in and set up your Slip'n'Slide.®

I can respect this viewpoint, and the fact that every situation is different. Thank you for speaking what you did. It is difficult for me, someone who does not live the role, to bring to context the emotions stirred when considering this situation.

--"I respect your no, but this is something I need you to do. Trust me not only when I take you where you want to be, but also where you need to be. It might not be easy when I lead you through this, but I will lead you nonetheless and when you get to where I am taking you, you will not fear it nor my choices again."

gentle persuasion with a firm direction, no?

 

[BiBunny]

I can respect this viewpoint, and the fact that every situation is different. Thank you for speaking what you did. It is difficult for me, someone who does not live the role, to bring to context the emotions stirred when considering this situation.

--"I respect your no, but this is something I need you to do. Trust me not only when I take you where you want to be, but also where you need to be. It might not be easy when I lead you through this, but I will lead you nonetheless and when you get to where I am taking you, you will not fear it nor my choices again."

gentle persuasion with a firm direction, no?

For you, maybe. I'd laugh in their faces if they tried to "talk me into" anything.

 

[ecstaticsub]

but in my opinion, and granted I am not in the role, but shouldn't a submissive willingly give to her Master...

if her will is to please him in all mannerisms and she does this with the knowledge that he will push her boundaries simply because he can, simply because it brings him joy and simply because he has her absolute trust in his hands...then shouldn't the Master know that she would not mutter the word "no" except under the extreme of circumstances, something that she truly feels she cannot handle? What he does with that "no" can be many things....he can stop, build her confidence, tell her why she needs it, (even respect her wishes) and use that as leverage to teach her a new horizon she has never crossed. It would seem he would accomplish more with a slight change of direction when she needs it most, instead of forging forward without regard at all.

Resistance is much like the rungs in a ladder...one afraid of heights will only climb so far, but with a little coaxing, a strong hand waiting to catch in case they fall, and they will climb to new heights, making the next climb up the ladder without fear, without hesitation...is there no Master who can view the situation in this teaching manner or is there not such a thing?

As Netzach stated the word No is not in my vocabulary when I am with Daddy. I simply don't use it. If a "no" sneaks out he laughs and ignores it. If needed sometimes I reword my thoughts, but as I avoid the word no.

I have though used "I'm scared, Daddy"...."I don't understand, please clarify?"....etc.

To tell him No, and mean No would be the end of my relationship.

 

[Netzach]

As Netzach stated the word No is not in my vocabulary when I am with Daddy. I simply don't use it. If a "no" sneaks out he laughs and ignores it. If needed sometimes I reword my thoughts, but as I avoid the word no.

I have though used "I'm scared, Daddy"...."I don't understand, please clarify?"....etc.

To tell him No, and mean No would be the end of my relationship.

And this is infinitely more useful to a functioning relationship of any kind than "no I'm not gonna" imo. I'm scared or I'm confused, or I'm feeling like I'm going to vomit my brains out today is a much more useful platform for some kind of communication. If you're after information and not confrontation yes and no aren't even important issues.

Of course I'm talking about established intimate relationships in this case, but that seems to be the framework of the discussion.

 

[jadedgirl]

As Netzach stated the word No is not in my vocabulary when I am with Daddy. I simply don't use it. If a "no" sneaks out he laughs and ignores it. If needed sometimes I reword my thoughts, but as I avoid the word no.

I have though used "I'm scared, Daddy"...."I don't understand, please clarify?"....etc.

To tell him No, and mean No would be the end of my relationship.

Yes, in the realm of things, using this sort of explanation would address your needs and concerns more effectively, I'm certain. Puts things into a new perspective, and allows a bit of my hesitation to be shelved. This example sounds as though communication is prominent and respected, of which, would make it so much easier to live the lifestyle without apprehension.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

As Netzach stated the word No is not in my vocabulary when I am with Daddy. I simply don't use it. If a "no" sneaks out he laughs and ignores it. If needed sometimes I reword my thoughts, but as I avoid the word no.

I have though used "I'm scared, Daddy"...."I don't understand, please clarify?"....etc.

To tell him No, and mean No would be the end of my relationship.

As I have told slaves in the past, you can tell me NO once... then that is it.

 

[where]

As I have told slaves in the past, you can tell me NO once... then that is it.

I've never understood the notion that you put so much emotional energy and time into a relationship and then just end it because you have pushed someone too far...

 

[be_ignited]

I've never understood the notion that you put so much emotional energy and time into a relationship and then just end it because you have pushed someone too far...

Nor do I. The ultimatum thing--obey or get out--doesn't work for me (obviously others' mileage may vary). Having said that, I don't go around disobeying on a whim (or at all really)--I really do want to do what he says.

But I love the man more than I love the dynamic and I would hope he feels the same. Ultimately, he is dominant and I am submissive, but the way it gets enacted in our daily lives is going to ebb and flow over the course of our relationship. I want him to forgive my "un-subly" moments as much as I would his "un-domly" moments.

 

[intothewoods]

As I have told slaves in the past, you can tell me NO once... then that is it.

I've never understood the notion that you put so much emotional energy and time into a relationship and then just end it because you have pushed someone too far...

I don't know, I think it's just a question of compatibility. A pyl who pushes back isn't a good fit with someone who wants near perfect obedience. Some PYLs enjoy a high-maintenance pyl, and some do not.

I don't know how often I say "no," but I certainly push back at times. We live together, and I'm human. Some days I'm tired, grumpy, doing too much, and I'm not thrilled to snap to attention and do whatever he asks me. I think I do a pretty good job of pushing myself to do whatever he asks of me, but I can't say I'm always perfectly chipper about it. He seems to be a pretty happy camper though, so I think it works for him.

 

[subish2009]

Nor do I. The ultimatum thing--obey or get out--doesn't work for me (obviously others' mileage may vary). Having said that, I don't go around disobeying on a whim (or at all really)--I really do want to do what he says.

But I love the man more than I love the dynamic and I would hope he feels the same. Ultimately, he is dominant and I am submissive, but the way it gets enacted in our daily lives is going to ebb and flow over the course of our relationship. I want him to forgive my "un-subly" moments as much as I would his "un-domly" moments.

This tends to be pretty much how I feel. He's not a perfect Dom. I'm certainly not a perfect sub. We're married. We have a kid. We were together long before we figured out our D/s tendencies. But this is why there's a BDSM spectrum...there's plenty of room for the much stricter M/s relationships, as well as those of us who are D/s with wiggle room.

I don't know, I think it's just a question of compatibility. A pyl who pushes back isn't a good fit with someone who wants near perfect obedience. Some PYLs enjoy a high-maintenance pyl, and some do not.

I don't know how often I say "no," but I certainly push back at times. We live together, and I'm human. Some days I'm tired, grumpy, doing too much, and I'm not thrilled to snap to attention and do whatever he asks me. I think I do a pretty good job of pushing myself to do whatever he asks of me, but I can't say I'm always perfectly chipper about it. He seems to be a pretty happy camper though, so I think it works for him.

Which is why I understand this, too. Both my Ds like my pushing back. We all like my challenging their authority, gently, testing my limits, getting myself into trouble...not real trouble...trouble that requires some minor consequences that are ultimately fun for all. But we're FAR from a TPE. I can imagine the rules being ENTIRELY different for someone in an actual M/s relationship. I don't suppose that's something the s would enter into lightly.

 

[ecstaticsub]

There is a difference between a push back and saying no. In the 5 years we have been together there has been more than a few times where if the dynamic were different my response would have been "fuck no, never"

As weird as this may sound I didn't say it because it would not have been good manners. He is an authority figure. If I disagree there are respectful ways of voicing that disagreement. My PYL is an intelligent man who though sometimes stubborn is open to respectful discussion in certain situations.

True, I have never said no. But that doesn't mean I haven't sometimes been able to convince him to change his mind. Most times I have had to suffer some consequences, but it's been fair and reasonable.

If it came to the point where I said no (or another certain phrase) then it would mean there is much more wrong with our relationship then the one issue bringing about my No response.

 

[where]

There is a difference between a push back and saying no. In the 5 years we have been together there has been more than a few times where if the dynamic were different my response would have been "fuck no, never"

As weird as this may sound I didn't say it because it would not have been good manners. He is an authority figure. If I disagree there are respectful ways of voicing that disagreement. My PYL is an intelligent man who though sometimes stubborn is open to respectful discussion in certain situations.

True, I have never said no. But that doesn't mean I haven't sometimes been able to convince him to change his mind. Most times I have had to suffer some consequences, but it's been fair and reasonable.

If it came to the point where I said no (or another certain phrase) then it would mean there is much more wrong with our relationship then the one issue bringing about my No response.

yeah I can get this. Sort of. Like subish, I'm more subbish than sub, in fact I got chided for referring to him as 'my Dom' on here. As he pointed out as I'm not his sub, how can he be my dom?

He is though