I had an abortion at 20...

[DeeZire]

I would like Ami to explain how he can claim to be pro-life, while at the same time being firmly anti-healthcare reform. The latest estimate is 45,000 deaths per year will occur in the USA due to our dysfunctional healthcare system. If that estimate is high, and it's actually only 20,000 deaths per year, or 10,000 deaths per year, does that lower number negate the sanctity of those human lives lost because of Ami's political heroes blocking healthcare reform?

I don't anticipate a response, but if he does respond, and his answer has entertainment value, perhaps someone could quote it for me so that I could see it?

In the mean time, I think we can all agree that "pro-life" is a misnomer for most of those who claim the title. Perhaps "pro-fetus, anti-life-if-you-don't-have-a-respectable-job-with-benefits" would be more accurate.

 

[Pure]

ami is known to have no particular concerns for the lives of newborns; he wants them left on church doorsteps, rather than contribute a nickel of 'taxes' to save the life of one. tens of thousands die each year in the US, for lack of health care. ami's 'market' solves this problem of 'baby needing doctor' and 'no one will pay the doctor, no public funds available'; baby dies. solved.

therefore ami's professed concern for the 'baby' in the womb, including the microscopic fertilized egg, is sham.


incidently, roeder, the murderer of abortion dr tiller, just got life.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35145293/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

the jury didn't buy roeder's and ami's line of reasoning that killing to prevent abortions is fine and dandy if done from 'conviction'; that mr roeder is like MLK.


---


http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/paren...mothers.index/

(CNN) -- An estimated 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world, according to a new report.

American babies are three times more likely to die in their first month as children born in Japan, and newborn mortality is 2.5 times higher in the United States than in Finland, Iceland or Norway, Save the Children researchers found.

Only Latvia, with six deaths per 1,000 live births, has a higher death rate for newborns than the United States, which is tied near the bottom of industrialized nations with Hungary, Malta, Poland and Slovakia with five deaths per 1,000 births.
===

http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-...mprove-3542-1/
US infant mortality rate fails to improve


Nearly 28,000 babies [in the US] died before their first birthday, according to new infant mortality statistics for 2003 released by the [US] National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS).

The infant mortality rates showed no significant improvement in 2003 after increasing in 2002 for the first time since 1958.===

PURE: If you do the math, that's about 14,000 unnecessary deaths per year. IOW, the 'advanced' countries have half the death-rate for newborns, and if that lower rate held here, half as many would die, as die now.

 

[DeeZire]

A woman is like a man, but take away reasoning and accountability.

WTF? Are men accountable when they impregnate a woman? Fuck no. Half the time, they disappear, change their name, go underground. The woman is the one who's held accountable. She's condemned if she terminates the pregnancy, she's forever changed physically if she carries the baby to term, if she keeps the baby, she's accountable for 18 more years. Where is the comparable accountability for the man? Does his body change after he deposits his sperm in someone else's womb? Does he gain 50 pounds during the pregnancy? (Drinking beer doesn't count.)

Today must be "let's celebrate hypocrisy day" at LIT.

 

[glynndah]

I'm another one of those who was told by my mother {when I was older and sexually active} that if abortions were legal at the time, I wouldn't be around. She had me because she had no safe choice. She also told me that any child I had should be because I wanted that child, not because I had no other option.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm another one of those who was told by my mother {when I was older and sexually active} that if abortions were legal at the time, I wouldn't be around. She had me because she had no safe choice. She also told me that any child I had should be because I wanted that child, not because I had no other option.

Exactly;
My children KNOW they were wanted.

 

[Pure]

bogus argument

ami's pasting: According to this elementary definition of life, life begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte.

criminal codes and constitutions and bills of rights protect persons. no person, no crime against a person. hence the OT penalty for causing a miscarriage is a fine.

science, actually, has some pretty good ideas of when the PERSON has ceased to exist: when there are no brainwaves, for example. it follows that for the first 3 months or so, there is nothing in the womb that qualifies. and indeed nothing approximating children's brain waves, for another 3 months at least.

the common sense ideas of the end of the life/existence of a person involve breathing and heart beat--their cessation. their beginning might be called the beginning of the life/existence of the person.

there is no scientific way to definitively answer the question of 'when is there a person', just as science does not dictate the legal criteria for death. 'flatline' of brain waves is, in part, a socially agreed marker, though it has obvious plausibility.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Pure, PLEASE don't hijack this thread into another of your interminable debates with the moron.

 

[LaRocha]

Human life ends with the cessation of brain activity, "Record the time, Doc." To keep things symmetrical, human life should begin with brain activity, at about 25 weeks gestation.

"Plato contended that the human soul does not enter the body until birth, and this was determinative for legal science in ancient Roman society (Buss 1967)."

http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162

Quit stealing all my hot answers, Pure.

Anyway, at twenty-five weeks the brain is processing sensations, a itty baby in the womb can touch its face and process that information.

 

[Handley_Page]

I'm another one of those who was told by my mother {when I was older and sexually active} that if abortions were legal at the time, I wouldn't be around. She had me because she had no safe choice. She also told me that any child I had should be because I wanted that child, not because I had no other option.

Here, Here

 

[~Haze~]

Exactly;
My children KNOW they were wanted.

You've mentioned this a few times in the thread, almost to suggest that your children are loved more (or mean more) because they were planned.

If you ended up having to give birth to one of the pregnancies you aborted, do you think you'd feel differently about that child?

 

[Stella_Omega]

You've mentioned this a few times in the thread, almost to suggest that your children are loved more (or mean more) because they were planned.

If you ended up having to give birth to one of the pregnancies you aborted, do you think you'd feel differently about that child?

Yes, I am sure I would have loved that child and made the best of what would have been an exceedingly difficult life situation.

But I am very glad that I did not have to do so.

My two were planned and wanted. They were not unwanted.

(I had one (1) abortion, BTW. Other women have had more abortions than I have, as is their right.)

 

[Boxlicker101]

WTF? Are men accountable when they impregnate a woman? Fuck no. Half the time, they disappear, change their name, go underground. The woman is the one who's held accountable. She's condemned if she terminates the pregnancy, she's forever changed physically if she carries the baby to term, if she keeps the baby, she's accountable for 18 more years. Where is the comparable accountability for the man? Does his body change after he deposits his sperm in someone else's womb? Does he gain 50 pounds during the pregnancy? (Drinking beer doesn't count.)

Today must be "let's celebrate hypocrisy day" at LIT.

Do you have anything to support that statistic? I know that many men and boys do desert the mother and newborn, but I would bet that a big majority do not, and that they accept their responsibility. They do have a financial responsibility, you know, for the next 18 years, unless the baby is given up for adoption.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I'm another one of those who was told by my mother {when I was older and sexually active} that if abortions were legal at the time, I wouldn't be around. She had me because she had no safe choice. She also told me that any child I had should be because I wanted that child, not because I had no other option.

That kind of stings don't it! I too was a mistake, yet back then there was no choice but to have me. Not that I was told I wasn't wanted but when the time came that my parents could afford things like braces for you teeth, my younger brother got them, not I. When he too had to get married he was fawned over and given a nice wedding and honeymoon trip.

When I decided to marry, it was a mistake. And now that my father is dead, guess who inherited family business.

It wasn't me that's for sure, the one who made it on his own without help from "daddy".

 

[Verdad]

"Trying to sacrifice someone else is where it gets repulsive."

And sacrificing a baby is sacrificing someone else and yes, it is repulsive.

I don't believe there are that many birth control failures for each individual person....five abortions? That is pure laziness. Those situations just really anger me.

It astounds me that women scream about rights, but yet they expect special rules when it comes to being responsible when they get pregnant. If a woman choses to have the baby, the man does not get to chose whether or not he wants to be a father. And yes, it can destroy a man's life if the women he impregnates turns out to be a psycho bitch from hell and drains him financially, emotionally and mentally using the child as a pawn....what is a man told? You should have thought about that before you had sex. I say the same for a woman, you should have thought about that before you had sex.

What is that saying?

A woman is like a man, but take away reasoning and accountability.

Hi, Serene. I think it's cruel and barbaric to refuse an abortion to a woman who can not accept going through a particular pregnancy. Her reasons are ultimately her own.

That doesn't mean I approve of women who think abortion is a handy alternative to contraception, but then, some people create problems however you slice it. They fill institutions with abandoned, neglected, and abused kids. Some of them would have no compunction against drowning a real baby if they couldn't get rid of it before it was a baby. Some do. If they at least have the good sense to decide on time, their misuse of abortion ranks right at the bottom of my list of what is wrong with the world.

Yet this doesn't satisfy the punitive passions, and there is a decidedly punitive aspect to what you say: "The irresponsible cow spread her legs; let her face the music." Never mind that the kid and the society often pay the real price. So long as she carries to term, it's as though some kind of a bizarre justice has been done.

Even if you think so, though, remember not every woman who finds herself in need of abortion is an irresponsible cow. Ask yourself whether you'd rather make life harder for a few 'cows' or force even a single woman you respect through a pregnancy and a motherhood she upon her best, most conscientious consideration does not want. What you would do 'in her place' matters not. Either you will find that in the end you have to trust other women with their decisions, or we'll have to agree to drop the subject.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The inescapable reality is, when you flush IT away you take from IT something that doesnt belong to you, ITs future.

IT isnt your property.

On the other-hand, the cows who get abortions are mostly Democrats whose spawn would have likely been thugs constipating jails & prisons.

 

[DeeZire]

Do you have anything to support that statistic? I know that many men and boys do desert the mother and newborn, but I would bet that a big majority do not, and that they accept their responsibility.

No, Box. I was being overly dramatic to make a point. My point was based on the fact that my GF's sister's first husband left her and the kid and moved across the country. It took years for the law to catch up with him, and when they finally did, they didn't recoup near what his financial obligation was supposed to be. He never went to jail, he never owned up to his responsibilities, the system never held him 100% accountable, and the kid suffered because of it.

They do have a financial responsibility, you know, for the next 18 years, unless the baby is given up for adoption.

While this is true, it very seldom results in the financial responsibility actually being met by the deadbeat dad. Enforcement is a big problem. It usually falls under "social services" - you know, the type of government program that's the first to get the axe when Conservatives are cutting the budget? In Arizona (the new home of the deadbeat dad in the above example) Conservatives have been cutting social services budgets for 20 years, which probably makes this state a good destination for deadbeat dads.

 

[DeeZire]

....On the other-hand, the cows who get abortions are mostly Democrats whose spawn would have likely been thugs constipating jails & prisons.

How charming. You, JBJ, are the perfect example of a lost opportunity, some 60 odd years ago when your mom decided not to abort you.

 

[sadangel]

I'm another one of those who was told by my mother {when I was older and sexually active} that if abortions were legal at the time, I wouldn't be around. She had me because she had no safe choice. She also told me that any child I had should be because I wanted that child, not because I had no other option.

I was not wanted. My mother didn't want a third child in four years. She was too far along with me, by the time she found out my biological father didn't want me either. (He was in the Navy and out on a sub for several months.) I had severe breathing problems at birth and was expected to die. At age 18, my mom told me she wished I had died at birth like I was supposed to. That she wished I were dead. I tried to give her what she wanted that night. I spent my entire childhood being abused by my family. Mental, emotional, physical, sexual. There are times I wish she had just aborted me, even in the "coat hanger" days. Then there are days, when I know I have a Sir who loves me so much, that I am glad she did not.

I never had an abortion. I had five miscarriages, each at 16 weeks. They aren't certain what caused them. We have some suspicions, but no firm answers. I don't want children now. If I were to become pregnant, I don't know what I would do. I don't foresee that happening, due to the "Big V" Sir got. Also, I have tremendous trouble getting pregnant in the first place.

I support a woman's right to choose. However for me, most likely I would only consider abortion for reasons of rape, incest or mother's health. This is for ME alone. Not what I impose on others. I would hope those considering abortion would think long and hard about it. Many never get over the guilt of it. Some never have guilt. We never know which catagory we will fall in.

Those who have had abortions in this thread...you did what you felt was right for you. It may or may not have been right for me, but I support you for your choices. You will find no condemnation from me.

I wish fathers were involved in these decision but sometimes they are not or cannot be. We don't know anyone situation but our own. We have no right to judge anyone else for their decisions. I at least know I have no right to do so and will not.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

How charming. You, JBJ, are the perfect example of a lost opportunity, some 60 odd years ago when your mom decided not to abort you.

God tried and failed, and His incompetence filled me with a sense of infallability. My mom waited till I was 4, and failed like God. I'll never die, and be on LIT forever.

 

[cloudy]

Those who have had abortions in this thread...you did what you felt was right for you. It may or may not have been right for me, but I support you for your choices. You will find no condemnation from me.

Thank you.

It still just flabbergasts me that any woman would want to take another woman's right to make her own decisions about her body away from her. I mean...WTF???

Many women would never, under any circumstances, have an abortion. That's completely their decision, and I'll back them up totally on their right to decide. However, that same woman would condemn me for me taking on the exact same responsibility that she did: we each have the right to do with our own body as we choose.

It has a foul odor of self-righteousness about it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SADANGEL youre a moron. People judge all the time, its impossible not to judge if you have any capacity to feel sympathy or regret or sadness or joy.

If you'd think about a lot of the crap you believe, toss out the crap that doesnt work for you, you'd feel some satisfaction.

I dont get why anyone would wanna fuck ROB. One of life's mysteries, I suppose.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Thank you.

It still just flabbergasts me that any woman would want to take another woman's right to make her own decisions about her body away from her. I mean...WTF???

Many women would never, under any circumstances, have an abortion. That's completely their decision, and I'll back them up totally on their right to decide. However, that same woman would condemn me for me taking on the exact same responsibility that she did: we each have the right to do with our own body as we choose.

It has a foul odor of self-righteousness about it.

Yep and you dont give a fat fart about what you take when you flush. So welcome to the Society of the Self Absorbed.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The inescapable reality is, when you flush IT away you take from IT something that doesnt belong to you, ITs future.

IT isnt your property.

yes, IT is my property. And ITs future is my decision. You want to bring a fetus to term? Implant one in your own body.

 

[Stella_Omega]

double post

 

[~Haze~]

Yes, I am sure I would have loved that child and made the best of what would have been an exceedingly difficult life situation.

But I am very glad that I did not have to do so.

My two were planned and wanted. They were not unwanted.

(I had one (1) abortion, BTW. Other women have had more abortions than I have, as is their right.)

I'm guessing you would have, too. I know many people who have multiple children. Planned child next to an unplanned child and the degree of love doesn't change based on whether the pregnancy was planned.

I just find it interesting that you use the fact that their conception was planned as a way to express love.

IMO, wanted and loved is entirely unrelated to planned. Planned is an entirely different thing. Obviously, as we can tell by the many people who shared with us the fact that they weren't wanted (let's call this... TMI!).