When is NO really NO?

[BiBunny]

Yep, me too. Took me awhile to learn that about myself. It also makes me very glad that K and I have similar hard limits. It all boils down to knowing your dominant before you agree to submit.

Honestly, my feeling is that if you REALLY don't want to have anal sex, then you should be careful not to end up in a relationship with someone who won't be happy unless they're getting anal sex. The reverse is true. If you cannot be happy without anal sex, then you should avoid relationships with someone who won't/can't.

Yep. *Nods*

 

[rida]

Honestly, my feeling is that if you REALLY don't want to have anal sex, then you should be careful not to end up in a relationship with someone who won't be happy unless they're getting anal sex. The reverse is true. If you cannot be happy without anal sex, then you should avoid relationships with someone who won't/can't.

*nod*

Or be ready to, if you are a PYL find a way to get it, and if you are a pyl to eventually give it up.

And at the end it all boils down to "know your PYL/pyl" before entering a committed D/s and even more so M/s relationship. And be ready to re-negotiate the terms/walk away if and when they does not satisfy/fulfill/fit you anymore.

 

[YourCaptor]

Make it know that its gonna happen, she'll get new memories to associate with it.

As for how to do it, that's up to their style.

 

[Kajira Callista]

You know, there are people who think a spider strolling across a sternum wouldn't be a big deal, either.

OMG...just just... OMG!

You are a bad bad man

 

[PertPerth]

He knows there are emotional issues attached to this and yet he's throwing out the whiny, manipulative, BDSM equivalent of 'if you loved me you'd do it.'

That's exactly how I feel about it too.
I don't care how big or small the issue is; 'rational' or not - no means no. If he was my PYL and fucked my ass after I told him it was my hard limit, I'd be calling the cops and reporting a rape....then visitng him in jail and asking him if someone has made him their ass-bitch yet.

 

[your_vice]

That's exactly how I feel about it too.
I don't care how big or small the issue is; 'rational' or not - no means no. If he was my PYL and fucked my ass after I told him it was my hard limit, I'd be calling the cops and reporting a rape....then visitng him in jail and asking him if someone has made him their ass-bitch yet.

Yeah. It's not that he wants to overcome her limit that bothers me, it's that he appears to think that should require no compromise or effort on his part. If the OP had said he was trying to address her fears, get her to have therapy or suggesting baby steps like small toys or whatever, that would be different. It reads as though he's just said 'you should do it because I want it' and expected her to instantly grab her ankles. As others have said, general aversion is one thing, post trauma phobia is quite another.

 

[midwestyankee]

This is the part I don't understand.

What the heck does a blow-up doll have to do with sexual conquest?

MWY, is that really an urge you've never felt? The urge to overcome stated resistance or refusal, I mean.

It was a simple case of hyperbole, JM. At that point, Rosco's posts had all indicated that he didin't give a rat's ass for his submissives' limits. So I lampooned his posts by suggesting that what he really wanted was a fucktoy that had no mind of its own, hence a blow-up doll.

Of course I've felt the urge to overcome stated resistance or refusal. After all, I was once a teenager who lived for the possibility of getting laid. Sometimes I have had the urge to maim or kill one of my children, too. The thing is, though, I grew out of the first urge and that growth helped make it possible for me to stay off the six o'clock news for failing to overcome the second one.

I just don't see where manipulation belongs in a mature relationship.

 

[where]

Does it make me a raging, insensitive bitch to say, unless you have some awful disease of the digestive system (e.g., Crohn's), anal, in the grand scheme of things, really ain't that big a deal? And this coming from someone who really doesn't like anal that much at all.

yes it does, or, maybe it just means that you have been fortunate enough to go through life without ever experiencing serious emotional trauma.

perhaps from a physical standpoint, no, it's not that big of a deal (barring physical medical issues). however far more often "hard limits" or high levels of resistance to specific activities have more to do with the mind than body. say for instance a girl was anally raped in the past, then it can be understandable why she would never wish to engage in anal sex again, regardless of the circumstances, regardless how compassionate or seductive the dominant partner.

simple bondage is no big deal to most folks who frequent this board, but it gives me flashbacks of childhood abuse and leaves me in a really dark place for a really long time. doesn't make it a limit, as i don't have the privilege of those...but it definitely makes it an area where my Master has to tread carefully, and weigh his desires against my mental stability.

Well put. Does your master know the psychological damage he does to you when he uses bondage on you?

 

[eastern sun]

In my opinion, in the early stages of any relationship No always means No. How else are you going to build enough trust to actually get to know each other?

On the other hand, I think Rosco and JMohegan's attitudes are incredibly hot. That's certainly how I got where I am today. There is a fable that speaks to the effectiveness of the "slow and steady" approach to life. Remember the tortoise and the hare?

Your friend's boundaries are already softening. That may be exciting the master, and "quickening" his desire. Maybe he's falling into the trap of the "hare." Checklists facilitate communication. But they don't take the place of the kind of communication in the moment that tells you things are moving too fast.

The formal elements of these relationships do, in fact, help those of us with awkward social skills, but we are still in the middle of intimate social interactions. And once pain is explicitly involved, things can get complicated in spite of our efforts to be clear.

Bottoming to a sadist opens up the possibility that you will be hurt, just by definition. Sadists get turned on by causing you pain, and the discomfort and resistance that you're showing may in fact push him or her to go further.

I had to laugh at myself once when I was pissed at someone for causing me pain, because that was in fact what I was seeking from him in the first place. These relationships are complicated, and in the throes of sexual excitement, boundaries get crossed all the time.

We can limit our activities to formally negotiated dungeon experiences, where clearly defined parameters have been developed to frame the interactions of relative strangers, but if you're dating or living together or developing some kind of life partnership, it's going to get "messy."

Sometimes we get so excited by meeting someone who "appears" to be able to satisfy these deep needs that we ignore the not-so-subtle hints that there are still areas of disagreement and/or non-compatibility that are not easily overcome.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I just don't see where manipulation belongs in a mature relationship.

My view of the world is that manipulation happens all the time, in every relationship. It's an inescapable part of dealing with others, especially when you've got 2 people highly sensitive to the flow of power.

 

[JMohegan]

It was a simple case of hyperbole, JM. At that point, Rosco's posts had all indicated that he didin't give a rat's ass for his submissives' limits. So I lampooned his posts by suggesting that what he really wanted was a fucktoy that had no mind of its own, hence a blow-up doll.

Of course I've felt the urge to overcome stated resistance or refusal. After all, I was once a teenager who lived for the possibility of getting laid. Sometimes I have had the urge to maim or kill one of my children, too. The thing is, though, I grew out of the first urge and that growth helped make it possible for me to stay off the six o'clock news for failing to overcome the second one.

I just don't see where manipulation belongs in a mature relationship.

I understood that it was hyperbole; what I don't understand is how your brain leaped to that particular metaphor. Nothing about the urge for sexual conquest implies that the female is, or should be, inanimate. Just the opposite, in fact.

To me, the urge for sexual conquest is part of being alive with a cock and balls. The difference between teens and older guys is (usually) just a matter of finesse. Skill obtained through experience.

And you still aren't getting what's being said about "limits." It's not a question of failure to give a rat's ass, but rather a belief that they don't really exist in a fixed, intractable sense.

"You said no? Fuck you, I'm shoving it in" = failure to give a rat's ass.

"You said no? OK." [commence patience, planning, & chipping away over the long haul] = belief that the no can be altered.

 

[JMohegan]

My view of the world is that manipulation happens all the time, in every relationship. It's an inescapable part of dealing with others, especially when you've got 2 people highly sensitive to the flow of power.

Exactly.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

My dick wants what it wants, and it charges my brain with finding a way to get it.

I think the guy referenced in the OP has a ham-handed brain. It's purely a management problem: He needs to get a new guy into his skull who can show results without killing morale.

 

[midwestyankee]

I understood that it was hyperbole; what I don't understand is how your brain leaped to that particular metaphor. Nothing about the urge for sexual conquest implies that the female is, or should be, inanimate. Just the opposite, in fact.

To me, the urge for sexual conquest is part of being alive with a cock and balls. The difference between teens and older guys is (usually) just a matter of finesse. Skill obtained through experience.

And you still aren't getting what's being said about "limits." It's not a question of failure to give a rat's ass, but rather a belief that they don't really exist in a fixed, intractable sense.

"You said no? Fuck you, I'm shoving it in" = failure to give a rat's ass.

"You said no? OK." [commence patience, planning, & chipping away over the long haul] = belief that the no can be altered.

I do get the point that neither you nor Rosco believe that limits are not fixed and intractable. We all change and relationships evolve. Over time, things that we once thought were hard limits might no longer seem so frightening. These changes happen all the time in long-term relationships.

Where we differ is in intentionality. I just don't see the point in being intentionally manipulative. Now, you and Rosco both believe that manipulation exists in all relationships and that's probably true. In my view, manipulation is damaging to a relationship so we should strive to avoid it.

When you say that manipulation exists in all relationships, it sounds as if you're excusing your actions on the rationale that "everyone else is doing it." There's plenty of corruption in politics but does that mean that we should accept it without making any effort to root out a practice that is harmful to the health of our governance?

 

[LearningSub]

deleted

 

[subish2009]

Make it know that its gonna happen, she'll get new memories to associate with it.

As for how to do it, that's up to their style.

That's an approach I hadn't thought of: replacing traumatic memories with new, pleasant ones. She needs to be receptive to that, though, which goes back to the problem in the OP about him needing to see this as more of a process than something to plow through.

Yeah. It's not that he wants to overcome her limit that bothers me, it's that he appears to think that should require no compromise or effort on his part. If the OP had said he was trying to address her fears, get her to have therapy or suggesting baby steps like small toys or whatever, that would be different. It reads as though he's just said 'you should do it because I want it' and expected her to instantly grab her ankles. As others have said, general aversion is one thing, post trauma phobia is quite another.

<snip>
I just don't see where manipulation belongs in a mature relationship.

My view of the world is that manipulation happens all the time, in every relationship. It's an inescapable part of dealing with others, especially when you've got 2 people highly sensitive to the flow of power.

MWY, I've gotta agree with RR here. There's the kind of manipulation that everyone uses just to survive everyday interactions with other humans, the kind that are just part of life. Then there's the bad kind of manipulation that is used selfishly and destructively. Like the difference between saying, "All lying is bad, under all circumstances," and acknowledging that white lies are often necessary for maintaining healthy relationships.

In my opinion, in the early stages of any relationship No always means No. How else are you going to build enough trust to actually get to know each other?

On the other hand, I think Rosco and JMohegan's attitudes are incredibly hot. <snip>

QFT. There's a dichotomy here. I think there are pretty much two separate conversations going on here. Is anyone really advocating that the Dom described in the OP should be free to just force this sub through such a traumatic experience that she's been very clear is a hard limit? I think we are all agreeing, in varying ways and to varying degrees, that it needs to be approached by the Dom with great care, skill, and delicacy.

I think no means no for the moment, but it doesn't have to be a closed issue.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I am a submissive. However I have been getting itchy to try out my dominant urges. Fortunately about that sometime we have met a 3rd who we really all click with.

I did one of those checklists 5 years ago for my PYL and I am sure that all of the the sane things that I listed were hard limits have over this time become non-limits. It may have been gentle manipulation on his part but also with a deepening relationship the trust deepens and those things don't seem so scary anymore--at least with him.

I had our potential submissive fill out a checklist recently just as a way of seeing her interests and finding out what she has already experienced. As soon as I saw her hard limits I immediately started thinking of ways to get her to change her view on those. But building that trust takes time. I am very patient.

With me, with one particularly scary hard limit of mine I finally asked to drop the limit , well, really had to beg him to let me try it. Which I am sure was his plan all along.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Well put. Does your master know the psychological damage he does to you when he uses bondage on you?

of course. the very fact that it causes such trauma makes it effective for certain purposes he may have.

 

[ownedsubgal]

My view of the world is that manipulation happens all the time, in every relationship. It's an inescapable part of dealing with others, especially when you've got 2 people highly sensitive to the flow of power.

i'm not sure i agree 100% with this. on the one hand i can see how maybe i unconsciously manipulate my Master at times, but on the other hand i can't see how he manipulates me, at least intentionally. that is just not his style. He does not manipulate or finesse or trick or seduce me. i'm his slave. He just does. if i'm lucky, he'll tell me it's coming first.

 

[JMohegan]

I do get the point that neither you nor Rosco believe that limits are not fixed and intractable. We all change and relationships evolve. Over time, things that we once thought were hard limits might no longer seem so frightening. These changes happen all the time in long-term relationships.

Where we differ is in intentionality. I just don't see the point in being intentionally manipulative. Now, you and Rosco both believe that manipulation exists in all relationships and that's probably true. In my view, manipulation is damaging to a relationship so we should strive to avoid it.

When you say that manipulation exists in all relationships, it sounds as if you're excusing your actions on the rationale that "everyone else is doing it." There's plenty of corruption in politics but does that mean that we should accept it without making any effort to root out a practice that is harmful to the health of our governance?

What's inherently wrong with intentionality? What's inherently wrong with manipulation itself? That's what I don't get.

The way I see it, manipulation can be good, great, bad, or terrible. And all of this is context- and person-specific.

Good manipulation = manipulation that gets you what you want, without material negative consequences.

Great manipulation = manipulation that gets you what you want, with positive ancillary side effects - e.g., genuine appreciation of the female for the process itself, leading to increased arousal, trust, etc.

Bad manipulation = manipulation that results in a diminishing of trust, sense of resentment, increasingly pissed off or inclined-to-leave female, or some other such thing.

Terrible manipulation = the kind that lands you in jail and/or shatters her emotional well-being.

 

[JMohegan]

of course. the very fact that it causes such trauma makes it effective for certain purposes he may have.

This sounds like manipulation to me.

 

[midwestyankee]

What's inherently wrong with intentionality? What's inherently wrong with manipulation itself? That's what I don't get.

The way I see it, manipulation can be good, great, bad, or terrible. And all of this is context- and person-specific.

Good manipulation = manipulation that gets you what you want, without material negative consequences.

Great manipulation = manipulation that gets you what you want, with positive ancillary side effects - e.g., genuine appreciation of the female for the process itself, leading to increased arousal, trust, etc.

Bad manipulation = manipulation that results in a diminishing of trust, sense of resentment, increasingly pissed off or inclined-to-leave female, or some other such thing.

Terrible manipulation = the kind that lands you in jail and/or shatters her emotional well-being.

I guess perhaps we're at an impasse. In your view, manipulation appears to be a normal part of a relationship and I just can't see it that way. I see relationships as partnerships wherein honesty is a paramount virtue. My understanding of manipulation, particularly intentional manipulation, is that it's inherently dishonest.

 

[JMohegan]

I guess perhaps we're at an impasse. In your view, manipulation appears to be a normal part of a relationship and I just can't see it that way. I see relationships as partnerships wherein honesty is a paramount virtue. My understanding of manipulation, particularly intentional manipulation, is that it's inherently dishonest.

So what do you do, as a D?

What is the alternative, I mean?

You want something that she doesn't want to give. What happens next?

 

[ownedsubgal]

This sounds like manipulation to me.

really, how so? no one's wearing any blinders here.

 

[JMohegan]

really, how so? no one's wearing any blinders here.

What do blinders have to do with it?

He has "certain purposes." To achieve those purposes, he deliberately manipulates your emotional state with bondage. How is that not manipulation?