Two Important updates to my last BB response

[Colonel Hogan]

Your own post makes it clear that the Bush administration "temporarily suspended" the interrogation program in 2006 as a result of the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA) passed in December of 2005. The DTA limited interrogation techniques for prisoners under control of the Department of Defense specifically to those techniques described in the Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation.

Furthermore, section 1003(a) prohibited "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment of persons under custody or control" of the United States generally.

It defined those terms as follows:

(d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined- In this section, the term `cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984. http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gazette/2005/12/detainee-treatment-act-of-2005-white.php
​

Prior to passage of the DTA, the Bush administration had already been backing away from enhanced interrogations. It hadn't used waterboarding since 2003.

The phrase "temporarily suspended" implies that the CIA interrogation program was somehow re-implemented prior to Obama taking office.

It wasn't. Simply not true.

Thus, Obama's Executive Order 13491 of January 22, 2009 which supposedly "outlawed torture" was mostly smoke and very little fire. It didn't do anything which really had not already been done. It did reference a more recent version of the Army Field Manual than had been relied upon by the DTA, and it did close CIA detention facilities abroad.

But any interrogation remotely resembling "torture" had long been outlawed by the DTA -- which George Bush signed into law.

Besides, it's not like Barack really, really meant it. In a classic example of government doublespeak, President Obama, in the very same executive order that restricted interrogation techniques to those described in Army Field Manual 2 22.3, established a Special Interagency Task Force on Interrogation and Transfer Policies to study the matter and advise him on whether the first half of EO 13491 was really that good of an idea after all.

Specifically, he said:

e) Mission. The mission of the Special Task Force shall be:

(i) to study and evaluate whether the interrogation practices and techniques in Army Field Manual 2 22.3, when employed by departments or agencies outside the military, provide an appropriate means of acquiring the intelligence necessary to protect the Nation, and, if warranted, to recommend any additional or different guidance for other departments or agencies; and

(ii) to study and evaluate the practices of transferring individuals to other nations in order to ensure that such practices comply with the domestic laws, international obligations, and policies of the United States and do not result in the transfer of individuals to other nations to face torture or otherwise for the purpose, or with the effect, of undermining or circumventing the commitments or obligations of the United States to ensure the humane treatment of individuals in its custody or control.​

Guess what? The Task Force reported back to the President with its recommendations this past August. The Task Force assured the President, after consulting with the "most experienced and skilled" interrogators, that the provisions of Army Field Manual 2 22.3 were just fine for interrogations, thank you, and that no "additional or different guidance" was necessary.

Uh.....sort of.

"The Task Force concluded, however, that the United States could improve its ability to interrogate the most dangerous terrorists by forming a specialized interrogation group, or High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG), that would bring together the most effective and experienced interrogators and support personnel from across the Intelligence Community, the Department of Defense and law enforcement. The creation of the HIG would build upon a proposal developed by the Intelligence Science Board.

To accomplish that goal, the Task Force recommended that the HIG should coordinate the deployment of mobile teams of experienced interrogators, analysts, subject matter experts and linguists to conduct interrogations of high-value terrorists if the United States obtains the ability to interrogate them. The primary goal of this elite interrogation group would be gathering intelligence to prevent terrorist attacks and otherwise to protect national security. Advance planning and interagency coordination prior to interrogations would also allow the United States, where appropriate, to preserve the option of gathering information to be used in potential criminal investigations and prosecutions.

The Task Force recommended that the specialized interrogation group be administratively housed within the Federal Bureau of Investigation, with its principal function being intelligence gathering, rather than law enforcement. Moreover, the Task Force recommended that the group be subject to policy guidance and oversight coordinated by the National Security Council.

The Task Force also recommended that this specialized interrogation group develop a set of best practices and disseminate these for training purposes among agencies that conduct interrogations. In addition, the Task Force recommended that a scientific research program for interrogation be established to study the comparative effectiveness of interrogation approaches and techniques, with the goal of identifying the existing techniques that are most effective and developing new lawful techniques to improve intelligence interrogations."

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/August/09-ag-835.html​

Does it get any more hilarious? Immediately, after saying that no "additional or different guidance" was necessary, the Task Force advocates the HIG.

Secondly, the HIG's objective of gathering intelligence (mentioned TWICE) rather than law enforcement is hardly an accidental distinction. It implies an interrogation that, at the very least, is coercive in nature and might not withstand the due process requirements necessary for a successful criminal conviction.

Finally, -- and this is the very BEST part -- the Task Force recommends that the HIG develop and "disseminate to other agencies that conduct interrogations" a set of "BEST PRACTICES" that are scientifically verifiable as to their effectiveness. Hah! So much for those bumbling Bush amateurs. Leave it to Obama to take the guess work out of "torture."

But, hey, if it gets ya some good intelligence, right? Well, duuuuuhhhh. That's what the previous administration was trying to do, dumbasses!

The Task Force's concern for detainees transferred to other countries was equally touching. In order to ensure that such individuals are not tortured, the Task Force came up with this gem:

"The Task Force also made several recommendations aimed at improving the United States’ ability to monitor the treatment of individuals transferred to other countries. These include a recommendation that agencies obtaining assurances from foreign countries insist on a monitoring mechanism, or otherwise establish a monitoring mechanism, to ensure consistent, private access to the individual who has been transferred, with minimal advance notice to the detaining government."​

Yeah, good luck with that. And if the receiving country tells you to shove your "monitoring mechanism" up your ass, do you transfer anyway? No? Yes? Maybe? Yeah. I'm guessing "maybe" works.

In short, BB, Bush had backed off enhanced interrogations long before Barack Obama hypocritically used the issue to win a Nobel Peace Prize.

And contrary to what he would like you and everyone else to believe, Barack Obama has reserved the right to reinstate the practice of enhanced interrogations anytime he wants.

Most probably right after the next successful attack on America.

Update no. 1: For those who did not know (I sure didn't), the High Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG) referenced above was, in fact, enacted by Executive Order on August 24, 2009. "One national security official said this new interrogation group will be focused on intelligence gathering and will not be reading Miranda rights to captured terrorism suspects." http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/white-house-confirms-president-signed-off-on-interrogation-group.html

Update no. 2: For those who have been wondering why the Detroit Christmas bomber was not held for trial by military tribunal, Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair agrees with you that he should have been. Blair told the Senate Homeland Security Committee today that he was not consulted on whether Abdulmutallab should be questioned by the recently created High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group, or HIG.

"That unit was created exactly for this purpose," Blair said. "We did not invoke the HIG in this case. We should have."

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/US-Terror-Hearings/2010/01/20/id/347448

In short, we just didn't fuck up letting the idiot ON the plane. We fucked up taking him OFF.

 

[Songcatcher]

http://rss.nfowars.net/20100119_Tue_Alex.mp3

 

[Peregrinator]

Hush, Scarlett.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Update no. 1: For those who did not know (I sure didn't), the High Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG) referenced above was, in fact, enacted by Executive Order on August 24, 2009. "One national security official said this new interrogation group will be focused on intelligence gathering and will not be reading Miranda rights to captured terrorism suspects." http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/white-house-confirms-president-signed-off-on-interrogation-group.html

Update no. 2: For those who have been wondering why the Detroit Christmas bomber was not held for trial by military tribunal, Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair agrees with you that he should have been. Blair told the Senate Homeland Security Committee today that he was not consulted on whether Abdulmutallab should be questioned by the recently created High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group, or HIG.

"That unit was created exactly for this purpose," Blair said. "We did not invoke the HIG in this case. We should have."

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/US-Terror-Hearings/2010/01/20/id/347448

In short, we just didn't fuck up letting the idiot ON the plane. We fucked up taking him OFF.

With the OP you have proven one thing beyond all doubt: you have devoted about one thousand times as much thought to the issue between you two as BB does in the course of posting a thousand threads.

That's really not necessary to do just for the purpose of proving him wrong, since that's pretty much the default assumption, anyway.

So, what gives?

Did he kick your dog?

 

[fair_warning]

that's pretty much the default assumption, anyway.

Maybe I'll take BB off ignore now...

 

[Byron In Exile]

Maybe I'll take BB off ignore now...

Be prepared for the sigline from hell.

 

[tactful]

Secret agent, spy, terrorist, POW, just a few things that come to mind,
times sure have changed.

 

[Songcatcher]

Hush, Scarlett.

Nanda? Bakayaro?!

 

[hogjack]

Policy wonks hardly need more masturbation material.

 

[busybody..]

Update no. 1: For those who did not know (I sure didn't), the High Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG) referenced above was, in fact, enacted by Executive Order on August 24, 2009. "One national security official said this new interrogation group will be focused on intelligence gathering and will not be reading Miranda rights to captured terrorism suspects." http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/white-house-confirms-president-signed-off-on-interrogation-group.html

Update no. 2: For those who have been wondering why the Detroit Christmas bomber was not held for trial by military tribunal, Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair agrees with you that he should have been. Blair told the Senate Homeland Security Committee today that he was not consulted on whether Abdulmutallab should be questioned by the recently created High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group, or HIG.

"That unit was created exactly for this purpose," Blair said. "We did not invoke the HIG in this case. We should have."

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/US-Terror-Hearings/2010/01/20/id/347448

In short, we just didn't fuck up letting the idiot ON the plane. We fucked up taking him OFF.

1- I was right, wasnt I?

2-The fuck ups come from the TOP DOWN.

The Ft Hood shit didnt even MENTION TERROR or ISLAM, they called it an INCIDENT and ALLEGED SHOOTER



FROM THE TOP DOWN!

 

[busybody..]

With the OP you have proven one thing beyond all doubt: you have devoted about one thousand times as much thought to the issue between you two as BB does in the course of posting a thousand threads.

That's really not necessary to do just for the purpose of proving him wrong, since that's pretty much the default assumption, anyway.

So, what gives?

Did he kick your dog?

Moron!

 

[busybody..]

Not an inspiring bunch to be in control of the nation's security


The administration's top four intelligence and security officials went before the Senate Homeland Security Committee yesterday and had some startling news. They admitted that not one of them had been consulted before the Christmas undie bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab was Mirandized and got lawyered up. It wasn't even clear who had made the decision to place Abdulmutallab in the justice system rather than continuing intelligence briefings. The director of national intelligence, Dennis Blair, first told the committee that Abdulmutallab should have been question by the special groups that Obama had ordered back in January to be created to interrogate high value terrorists. Attorney General set up these interrogation units in August but, apparently, they hadn't considered that they might need these units to interrogate suspects captured in the United States.


Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair told a Senate committee that when Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab was taken into custody, the so-called High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG) should have been involved in questioning him.

"We should have automatically deployed the HIG. We will now," Blair told the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. He said that when the group was set up it was expected they would handle suspects detained overseas.

"We did not think about ... (a) case in which a terrorist was apprehended, as this one was, in the United States and we should have thought of that," Blair said.


Say what? Hadn't they noticed all the terrorist suspects who have been arrested in the United States since 9/11? It didn't occur to them that such suspects might know very important intelligence that we would like to know?

Later after Blair's testimony, the administration contradicted his remarks and said that they still weren't sure if they should use HIG to interrogate suspects captured domestically.Clearly, they are not on teh same page


Another administration official said the unit was intended to interrogate high-value detainees overseas, and the administration hasn't yet decided whether it could also be deployed domestically. But Mr. Blair specifically said using the teams solely overseas is a mistake, and that they would be used domestically in the future....The "WHITE" House clearly isnt interested in orotecting America and the DIA guy is, when does HE get shit canned?

And Blair admits that, even though the President issued the executive order to create these units in January, they're still not up and running. So now we have a conflict between the director of intelligence and the administration on such a basic question. And it seems that they scrapped the Bush administration's procedures and stil lhaven't put their own in place. Wonderful.

At least Blair recognizes that someone like Abdulmutallab should have been interrogated for the intelligence he might have had about Yemeni terrorist training camps. But it seems that the Justice Department is determined to treat such terrorists as ordinary criminals who deserve the full protections of the Bill of Rights. And now Blair is trying to tell us that it was sufficient for some FBI agents to have interrogated Abdulmutallab for several hours before he was given a lawyer and medical treatment. Don't they understand that successful interrogations might take place over a longer period of time as the interrogator goes back over and over what the terrorist previously stated in order to try to leverage out more information. A single questioning one time is not enough.

And it is disturbing that no one in the leadership of the nation's intelligence was even questioned about how to deal with a man who admitted that he'd been sent by Al Qaeda to blow up an airplane full of people on Christmas day. They can do all the reexaminations of their mistakes leading up to the bombing attempt, but it seems that they're ignoring the mistakes that they made after the guy fell into our custody. It seems that the passengers and stewardesses on that airplane showed more determination and initiative than those responsible for our nation's security.

 

[Songcatcher]

Which professors are being employed by European Union in the University of Kent.

Follow the money, idiot.

 

[busybody..]

Stunning, stubborn national-security incompetence [Andy McCarthy]


On the decision to treat Christmas bomber Umar Abdulmutallab as a criminal defendant rather than an enemy combatant — and it is a drastic overstatement to call it a "decision" since that implies that actual thought went into it — Steve Hayes has a hair-raising post at the Standard's blog on the testimony yesterday by four Obama national security officials before the Senate Homeland Security Committee. Bill Burck offered excellent thoughts on it here on the Corner yesterday, and I'll be weighing in as well.

Meantime, as Steve points out, Sen. Jeff Sessions was just tremendous in his pointed questioning at the hearing. Sen. Sessions released this statement afterwards:

I am deeply disturbed by the stunning revelations from today's oversight hearings in the Homeland Security and Judiciary Committees. The decision to prosecute Umar Abdulmutallab in civilian court, which required him to be given a Miranda warning and access to a defense lawyer, may have cost us crucial intelligence about current and future plots against our country. Even more alarming, we learned today that these rash decisions were made without consulting key counter-terrorism officials in the administration, including the Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair.

In his testimony today, Mr. Blair stated that the administration failed to deploy the High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group that was put in place for this very purpose. We learned that the administration had no policy in place to determine whether Abdulmutallab would be treated as a civilian or as an unprivileged belligerent-that, in effect, these decisions were made "on the fly" without any meaningful consideration of the consequences. And we learned from FBI Director Mueller's questioning that


responsibility for the decision to switch gears from intelligence collection to criminal processing lies with an unnamed high-ranking official at the Department of Justice.

To understand the mistakes that were made and avoid them in the future, we must get to the bottom of exactly what decisions were made and by whom. Today's Judiciary Committee hearing concluded with a bipartisan agreement that our intelligence officials must take immediate steps to put a clear policy in place to determine the course of action when a terrorist like Abdulmutallab is captured. It is truly alarming that, more than 8 years after 9/11, and on the heels of so many recently attempted strikes against our country, no such policy or directive is in place. Ultimately, I fear these failures are the product of efforts by the Obama Administration to ignore the fact that we are at war, as well as efforts to treat foreign terrorists as though they had the same rights as American citizens.

Director Mueller stated flatly that intelligence gathering stopped when Abdulmutallab was told he had the right to remain silent and to an attorney. By contrast, captured enemy combatants are not provided with these same privileges. While they do have important rights, they are available for interrogation and can be detained as long as the war continues.

Intelligence saves lives-but this administration's wrongheaded quest to grant American criminal trials to foreign terrorists puts valuable intelligence out of reach.

Terrorists are at war with us whether we like it or not. Failing to recognize that reality will not serve us any better now than it did before 9/11. It will only increase the danger.

 

[KRCummings]

Why do people take BB so seriously?
I've gotten to where I think anyone who takes him seriously is a bigger idiot than he is.

 

[unregistered]

 

[busybody..]

This President and his crew are too incompetent to be trusted with the national security.

I disagree

the crew is NOT incometent

they take orders from BAM, he is NOT protecting America, he has an anti America agenda

and

Holder defended terrorists PRO BONO as a lawyer

They either DONT get it or are ON THE OTHER SIDE!

WHY?

 

[busybody..]

FBI Most Wanted Terrorist Arrested in Yemen, Obama Promptly Sends Him a Lawyer...



Just yesterday the Obama administration admitted they fucked up when they gave the Christmas Day bomber a lawyer...

BUFFALO, NY - Federal officials say a man accused of helping recruit men known as the "Lackawanna Six" to train at an al-Qaida terrorist camp has been taken into custody again in his
native Yemen.

U.S. Attorney Kathleen M. Mehltretter tells the Buffalo News that Jaber Elbaneh is being held and has asked for a lawyer to defend him against charges he's faced in western New York since 2002. The 43-year-old Yemeni-American is on the FBI's list of most-wanted terrorism suspects. He's been held several times by Yemeni officials since being charged in the U.S. The two countries don't have an extradition treaty.

Another lesson not learned...

BUFFALO (AP) - The United States has appointed a Buffalo, N.Y., lawyer to counsel Yemeni-American terror suspect Jaber Elbaneh, who's been in custody in Yemen since 2008 and faces charges in New York that he helped recruit the so-called "Lackawanna Six" to train with al-Qaida.


U.S. Attorney Kathleen Mehltretter says the 43-year-old Elbaneh asked for a lawyer during a recent visit from U.S. government officials. Yemeni officials tell The Associated Press Thursday he's been in prison there since a 2008 terror conspiracy conviction. (incorrect, he was just re-arrested -ed.)

The former resident of Lackawanna, near Buffalo, is on the FBI's list of most-wanted terror suspects. He's been in and out of custody in Yemen since 2004. The U.S. wants to try him in Buffalo on 2003 charges of providing material support to terrorists, but Yemeni officials have refused to extradite him.

 

[Aliea]

Why do people take BB so seriously?
I've gotten to where I think anyone who takes him seriously is a bigger idiot than he is.

When I see people arguing with him in a serious debate, I just wonder about the other person. And I see him quoted by the right to pat him on the back in agreement, really? Come on now, you can't find someone else here to agree with? Instead of the guy who goes out of his way to be as racist as possible to get reactions.

I have BB on ignore now. Not for his stupid commentary, and it is stupid. But because he makes a ton of threads and when he replies he does so one after the other. We have a multi-quote button now, thanks.

 

[busybody..]

When I see people arguing with him in a serious debate, I just wonder about the other person. And I see him quoted by the right to pat him on the back in agreement, really? Come on now, you can't find someone else here to agree with? Instead of the guy who goes out of his way to be as racist as possible to get reactions.

I have BB on ignore now. Not for his stupid commentary, and it is stupid. But because he makes a ton of threads and when he replies he does so one after the other. We have a multi-quote button now, thanks.

Grow the fuck up!

 

[Aliea]

Old Today, 09:42 AM
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Multiquote dumbass!

 

[busybody..]

Grow the fuck up!

Grow the fuck up

 

[Aliea]

View Post Old Today, 01:16 PM

No no, I won't do it. No matter how dull the day is. I need to go to the conference room and join whatever horrible meeting is going on. That will save me.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

With the OP you have proven one thing beyond all doubt: you have devoted about one thousand times as much thought to the issue between you two as BB does in the course of posting a thousand threads.

That's really not necessary to do just for the purpose of proving him wrong, since that's pretty much the default assumption, anyway.

So, what gives?

Did he kick your dog?

Why do people take BB so seriously?
I've gotten to where I think anyone who takes him seriously is a bigger idiot than he is.

When I see people arguing with him in a serious debate, I just wonder about the other person. And I see him quoted by the right to pat him on the back in agreement, really? Come on now, you can't find someone else here to agree with? Instead of the guy who goes out of his way to be as racist as possible to get reactions.

I have BB on ignore now. Not for his stupid commentary, and it is stupid. But because he makes a ton of threads and when he replies he does so one after the other. We have a multi-quote button now, thanks.

How is it that three normally intelligent people so thoroughly miss the point?

In the vast majority of instances, my responses to BB have little to do with refuting his arguments specifically. If you would bother to read them, I believe you would find that they tend to be broader discussions and analyses of issues he happens to bring up. It isn't about him.

In this case the point is that Obama, in January of last year, made a BFD about and issued an executive order restricting interrogation techniques to those outlined in the latest edition of the Army Field Manual. But in the very same executive order he establishes a task force to study whether such restrictions were "appropriate" for non-military government agencies and whether "additional or different" interrogation techniques might be required.

It was hypocritical. It was like a little boy making a solemn promise with his fingers crossed behind his back. Especially since the prohibition against "torture" got all the publicity.

We now find that the task force copied the President's dance moves in its August 1, 2009 report by proclaiming the Army Field Manual totally sufficient in its interrogation guidelines and in need of NO additions or amendments and then, in the next breath, suggesting the ADDITION of a High Value Detainee Interrogation Group (HIG). Talk about transparency in government!

So much for the recommendations. On August 24th, the President enacted those recommendations by executive order. But since the HIG was set up as a separate interrogation group distinguishable from the Army Field Manual restrictions in the President's original order, the question which remains unanswered is whether or not the HIG is still restricted to the interrogation techniques outlined in that manual.

We do know that Miranda rights will NOT be read to detainees and that the primary purpose of the HIG is to gather intelligence rather than secure criminal convictions.

What we do not know is to what degree the "rights" of a detainee undergoing interrogation by the HIG would be further compromised.

I'd really like to know that. Not because I particularly give a shit about the care and comfort of terrorist combatants and certainly not so that I can better debate Busybody. To hell with him! This has nothing to do with him!

It has to do with the Obama's administration's degree of hypocrisy related to "enhanced" interrogations.

And then when I learn that the Director of National Intelligence is not even consulted as to whether to engage the services of HIG in interrogating the latest terrorist captive........What. The. Fuck.

The issues someone like Busybody might raise, however poorly he might raise them, are not about him, nor are his more radical viewpoints in any way validated simply because I and others happen to address those issues in threads that he happened to initiate.

Pay attention, FFS!!

 

[busybody..]

How is it that three normally intelligent people so thoroughly miss the point?



The issues someone like Busybody might raise, however poorly he might raise them, are not about him, nor are his more radical viewpoints in any way validated simply because I and others happen to address those issues in threads that he happened to initiate.

Pay attention, FFS!!

Most become UNHINGED when BUSYBODY posts

Because mostly they are MORONS and CANT see the real ISSUE!

They are so FIXATED on

"RACISM" etc, thatthey CANT SEE THE REAL ISSUES!