Post-feminism and BDSM

[BossySon21a]

If she lost, she faced public humiliation through on-air spanking, and if she won, he had to buy tickets to watch women's basketball? Have I got that right?

I don't think you have to be have to hardcore to see what's wrong with that picture. Jesus Christ.

Case in point.

She entered into it of her own free will, and then the usual nonsense started, from the people who have made feminism into a perceived joke. It was none of their business, and they ended up hurting their own cause by adding to the public perception of being obsessives.

Why do you assume she would have felt humiliated? Maybe so, maybe not, but she didn't have to do it as far as I know.

 

[Netzach]

Case in point.

She entered into it of her own free will, and then the usual nonsense started. from the people who have made feminism a joke. It was none of their business, and they ended up hurting their own cause by adding to the public perception of being obsessives.

Why do you assume she would have felt humiliated? Maybe so, but she didn't have to do it as far as I know.

Things are not "none of anyone's business" when you enter into the public eye, get notoriety and contracts, and become "a role model for the children." It's time to grow up and accept your new job.

If you can't handle that added baggage, stay out of the public eye, play pickup games in the park.

What she did was plain garden variety tacky. No one is arguing that she had a gun to her head, quite the contrary.

 

[BossySon21a]

Of course it's not an accident.

The word feminist is perceived as a pejorative by many because the opponents of feminism were relentless and successful in associating both the term, and the movement, with shrieking militant bitches

Nope. The 'opponents' had nothing to do with it. Until recently, for a period of about 25 years, they had little voice and were routinely shouted down. The rest of the feminists allowed the fringers to gain control of the message and become its public face, starting in the late 80s.

, as opposed to the legions of non-man-hating, everyday females who stepped out of the home and into the halls of higher education and the corporate, medical, legal, and political worlds - busting through stereotypes, stigmas, and pervasive old boy networks without ever eviscerating a male. Metaphorically or otherwise.

But they've allowed the haters and shriekers and fakes (the later being by far the largest group in the bad actor category) to become their public face, so completely that the word 'feminist' is not even associated in the public mind with the above people.

 

[BossySon21a]

Things are not "none of anyone's business" when you enter into the public eye, get notoriety and contracts, and become "a role model for the children." It's time to grow up and accept your new job.

If you can't handle that added baggage, stay out of the public eye, play pickup games in the park.

Not good enough.

What she did was plain garden variety tacky. No one is arguing that she had a gun to her head, quite the contrary.

And thus none of the feminists' business. The very fact that they were so outraged by it is the problem, it isn't that big a deal.

 

[Netzach]

Nope. The 'opponents' had nothing to do with it. Until recently, for a period of about 25 years, they had little voice and were routinely shouted down. The rest of the feminists allowed the fringers to gain control of the message and become its public face, starting in the late 80s.



But they've allowed the haters and shriekers and fakes (the later being by far the largest group in the bad actor category) to become their public face, so completely that the word 'feminist' is not even associated in the public mind with the above people.

Fringers like what? Germaine Greer? Naomi Wolfe? Doesn't Camilla Paglia cancel out 2 or 3 Naomi Wolfe's? Does anyone even READ at all that much anyway?

If I were to ask 100 people who Camille Paglia is, maybe 6 will know.

 

[Netzach]

Not good enough.

Yes good enough.*


*Tiger Woods.

 

[Netzach]

See, I figure what's good for the gander, a strict moralizing sense of keep it in your pants and don't do things that are outrageously tacky without expecting to take flack for it is good for the goose here.

Nothing he did was illegal or ANYONE's business. Except he is who he is, so they are everyone's business, apparently. To a far greater and more insane extent. I mean if you want to see RABIDITY just read the news.

The tsk tsking over this event is nothing in comparison.

 

[JMohegan]

Case in point.

She entered into it of her own free will, and then the usual nonsense started, from the people who have made feminism into a perceived joke. It was none of their business, and they ended up hurting their own cause by adding to the public perception of being obsessives.

Why do you assume she would have felt humiliated? Maybe so, maybe not, but she didn't have to do it as far as I know.

Have you ever been to a WNBA game? I'm guessing no.

Having taken my niece to multiple games, I can tell you who's in the crowd. Lots of families, including, most notably, many young girls cheering for the athletic accomplishments of strong young women.

That bet was a giant fucking mistake, made by an athlete who obviously temporarily forgot BOTH her personal responsibility as a role model AND where her bread is buttered.

 

[JMohegan]

Nope. The 'opponents' had nothing to do with it. Until recently, for a period of about 25 years, they had little voice and were routinely shouted down. The rest of the feminists allowed the fringers to gain control of the message and become its public face, starting in the late 80s.



But they've allowed the haters and shriekers and fakes (the later being by far the largest group in the bad actor category) to become their public face, so completely that the word 'feminist' is not even associated in the public mind with the above people.

I came of age in the 70's. If you want to try re-writing history, try addressing someone who wasn't there.

 

[BossySon21a]

I would have liked to see the Kobe sucks my dick on air challenge.

Where's everyone's sense of humor now?

You're digging the hole deeper with that silly comparison.

That wouldn't be remotely a comparable action.

A plausible male equivalent would be wearing a dress in public, a short skirt, or a woman's swimsuit. Something along those lines. And yes, jumping up and down in outrage at that would be just as silly, and there would be a fringe of (mostly) right-wing kooks who would do it.

And yes, it would be funny under the right circumstances if nobody was forced.

 

[Netzach]

You're digging the hole deeper with that silly comparison.

That wouldn't be remotely a comparable action.

A plausible male equivalent would be wearing a dress in public, a short skirt, or a woman's swimsuit. Something along those lines. And yes, jumping up and down in outrage at that would be just as silly, and there would be a fringe of (mostly) right-wing kooks who would do it.

And yes, it would be funny under the right circumstances if nobody was forced.

No shit, really? It's not the same? Like identical? Because I there's no tongue in cheek allowed here, I see.

And feminists have no sense of humor.

Since you're worried about apples to apples, how's this:

A Kobe bends over and says "spank me harder Daddy" action.

Surely no one would say anything.

 

[ZRT]

You're digging the hole deeper with that silly comparison.

That wouldn't be remotely a comparable action.

A plausible male equivalent would be wearing a dress in public, a short skirt, or a woman's swimsuit. Something along those lines. And yes, jumping up and down in outrage at that would be just as silly, and there would be a fringe of (mostly) right-wing kooks who would do it.

And yes, it would be funny under the right circumstances if nobody was forced.

Ricky Williams in the famous wedding dress shot with Mike Ditka comes to mind.

 

[Netzach]

Ricky Williams in the famous wedding dress shot with Mike Ditka comes to mind.

No one said anything about that, for sure. Just another day at ESPN.

 

[ZRT]

No one said anything about that, for sure. Just another day at ESPN.

Mostly from the other side of the argument, though.

Personally I didn't see anything wrong with either set-up. The Ricky Williams thing was funny to me, especially because I saw the looming disaster for the Saints from trading away their entire draft for one freaking running back.

(Niners fan and all.)

 

[BossySon21a]

Fringers like what? Germaine Greer? Naomi Wolfe? Doesn't Camilla Paglia cancel out 2 or 3 Naomi Wolfe's? Does anyone even READ at all that much anyway?

If I were to ask 100 people who Camille Paglia is, maybe 6 will know.

Paglia is the honorable exception to the problem. I don't necessarily agree with her on everything, but she has more intellectual honesty than any five of Catherine MacKinnon's or their ilk.

 

[BossySon21a]

See, I figure what's good for the gander, a strict moralizing sense of keep it in your pants and don't do things that are outrageously tacky without expecting to take flack for it is good for the goose here.

This has, again, almost nothing in common with the situation I cited.

Nothing he did was illegal or ANYONE's business. Except he is who he is, so they are everyone's business, apparently. To a far greater and more insane extent. I mean if you want to see RABIDITY just read the news.

The tsk tsking over this event is nothing in comparison.

It's mostly not our business, and I've not been following the story all that closely, it strikes me mostly as just sad and pathetic. There is one consideration that applies here: Tiger, or rather his PR team, deliberately shaped a false public persona, which got shattered. That does change the equation somewhat, but it has nothing to do with the shrill outrage over that sports bet. The feminist movement isn't the only one that's run aground.

 

[BossySon21a]

Have you ever been to a WNBA game? I'm guessing no.

Having taken my niece to multiple games, I can tell you who's in the crowd. Lots of families, including, most notably, many young girls cheering for the athletic accomplishments of strong young women.

That bet was a giant fucking mistake, made by an athlete who obviously temporarily forgot BOTH her personal responsibility as a role model AND where her bread is buttered.

She doesn't have any such responsibility, and while the bet may well have been a mistake, it's her mistake to make, and the objection the feminists (by which I mean the PR-based political ones) were making wasn't based on that anyway.

The idea that athletes, actors, celebrities generally have a responsibility to behave as a role model is wishful thinking, it never ends well. At best you get a long-delay disappointment, more often you end up with Tiger Woods or worse. Maybe they should behave that way, but it simply isn't going to happen on a reliable basis, and we should make it clear to kids that these people aren't role models.

(The ones who do behave that way, a way you'd want kids to emulate, do it because that's who they are, not because of any sense of duty.)

I hate to be that cynical, but sometimes the facts of life require it.

 

[BossySon21a]

I came of age in the 70's. If you want to try re-writing history, try addressing someone who wasn't there.

Did you not note that I said 'the last 25 years or so'? The seventies were between thirty and forty years ago.

Feminism, as a movement, lost control of their public image and message in the late 1980s. It wasn't the only 60/70s movement to undergo that experience about that time, but it was hit worse than most. The reasons are complicated, much it has to do with the Baby Boomers reaching mid-life, and some of it has to do with the fact that the 'low hanging fruit' had been picked.

 

[BossySon21a]

No shit, really? It's not the same? Like identical? Because I there's no tongue in cheek allowed here, I see.

And feminists have no sense of humor.

Since you're worried about apples to apples, how's this:

A Kobe bends over and says "spank me harder Daddy" action.

Surely no one would say anything.

Not many would have said much, no. It would't have been a big deal, certainly there wouldn't have been a demand for pretended apologies and all the rest of the nonsense.

A few kooks would have piped up, but they would have been perceived as just that. Kobe would have been seen as doing something silly, but it wouldn't be seen as some kind of threat to society or wrong against all men.

That would be about the same level of severity, but the reaction would have been quite different.

 

[BiBunny]

Multi-quote. Use it. Please.

 

[JMohegan]

She doesn't have any such responsibility, and while the bet may well have been a mistake, it's her mistake to make, and the objection the feminists (by which I mean the PR-based political ones) were making wasn't based on that anyway.

The idea that athletes, actors, celebrities generally have a responsibility to behave as a role model is wishful thinking, it never ends well. At best you get a long-delay disappointment, more often you end up with Tiger Woods or worse. Maybe they should behave that way, but it simply isn't going to happen on a reliable basis, and we should make it clear to kids that these people aren't role models.

(The ones who do behave that way, a way you'd want kids to emulate, do it because that's who they are, not because of any sense of duty.)

I hate to be that cynical, but sometimes the facts of life require it.

I agree that dispelling the athlete = role model myth is a good idea for parents when talking to their kids.

But parents *do* care about the way prominent athletes behave. Kellogg's dropped Phelps for a reason.

 

[Netzach]

This has, again, almost nothing in common with the situation I cited.



It's mostly not our business, and I've not been following the story all that closely, it strikes me mostly as just sad and pathetic. There is one consideration that applies here: Tiger, or rather his PR team, deliberately shaped a false public persona, which got shattered. That does change the equation somewhat, but it has nothing to do with the shrill outrage over that sports bet. The feminist movement isn't the only one that's run aground.

Simply because you can't see any similarities doesn't mean none exist. In both cases, I see athletes running afoul of the fact that they exist in the public eye with more stringent standards of behavior and sexual mores than "the rest of us." If you want to hunt Andrea Dworkins everywhere you go, fine, but I think a lot of mainstream moms and dads who are saying "my daugher goes to those games with us and it's not cool" are hardly Andrea Dworkin.

 

[Netzach]

I agree that dispelling the athlete = role model myth is a good idea for parents when talking to their kids.

But parents *do* care about the way prominent athletes behave. Kellogg's dropped Phelps for a reason.

We can sit here and hold our heads and go "it's none of our business" but when it comes to people and celebrity and how we've acted for decades, I think that's a sure sign that your tailfeathers are protruding from the desert landscape. Personally, I loathe the fact that everyone has to be up in everyone else's ass all the time, but if you're anyone, from a WNBA player to the President, and you're shocked that people care what you do with your genitals, you are an idiot.

 

[JMohegan]

Nope. The 'opponents' had nothing to do with it. Until recently, for a period of about 25 years, they had little voice and were routinely shouted down. The rest of the feminists allowed the fringers to gain control of the message and become its public face, starting in the late 80s.

Did you not note that I said 'the last 25 years or so'? The seventies were between thirty and forty years ago.

Feminism, as a movement, lost control of their public image and message in the late 1980s. It wasn't the only 60/70s movement to undergo that experience about that time, but it was hit worse than most. The reasons are complicated, much it has to do with the Baby Boomers reaching mid-life, and some of it has to do with the fact that the 'low hanging fruit' had been picked.

Yes, I did note what you said. I've been around, and paying attention, for *more than* 25 years.

The part in bold is just nonsense. Opponents were active, vocal, and relentless from the very beginning.

 

[JMohegan]

I think a lot of mainstream moms and dads who are saying "my daugher goes to those games with us and it's not cool" are hardly Andrea Dworkin.

I wouldn't be thrilled with the idea of explaining to my niece why one of her favorite players was attempting to promote game attendance this way.

I guess you could view it as a teachable moment of sorts, but still, I'd be pissed.