Post-feminism and BDSM

[PertPerth]

You talk about the glass ceiling but what about the cement basement? For 2008:

Men suffered 4,703 fatalities in the workplace
Women suffered 368 fatalities in the workplace

Not getting a promotion is one thing. Dead is dead.

This is true - but again, we're not comparing apples with apples. I could throw out the number of women who die in childbirth, it'd make up for those who don't die at work - and some.

The good old boys club is alive in well in my industry.

Ditto. I quit my last job because my boss couldn't "get me out of highschool" and kept on making jokes about me in a school uniform. I was 28, and it was coming from a seedy, married Pom with a 17 year old daughter, so it didn't go down very well with me.

*Not just individuals, but women as a whole, i.e. it's not necessarily the 'fault' of an individual woman that she earns less than a comparable man, the behaviour of other women affects her income too. A married woman may not have children, but because married women tend to have children, she gets paid less. The same as not all young people are bad drivers, but because they tend to be, insurance companies charge them higher premiums.

I remember my highschool maths teacher telling me a story about her not getting a job because she was married. I didn't understand and she replied, "well, apparently because I was married, they thought I was going to have babies. They never asked me if I could."
Indeed this is sexism, and not legal in many countries.

 

[WriterDom]

This is true - but again, we're not comparing apples with apples. I could throw out the number of women who die in childbirth, it'd make up for those who don't die at work - and some.


.

That's her bad for biting the apple first.

 

[YourCaptor]

The glass ceiling, I don’t think its as simple as sexism. It seems more probable that it is caused by the whole rich fucks “inheriting” daddies company, traditions of the aristocracy type thing, which of course sexism is an element of. Purely removing the sexist aspect however still will not guaranty women at the top I think.

 

[BiBunny]

The glass ceiling, I don’t think its as simple as sexism. It seems more probable that it is caused by the whole rich fucks “inheriting” daddies company, traditions of the aristocracy type thing, which of course sexism is an element of. Purely removing the sexist aspect however still will not guaranty women at the top I think.

This I will agree with, to some extent.

 

[ZRT]

Man, this was so much better when it was about beating women instead of politics.

On the topic, sure, there is an old boy's club that is taking a while to crack, but it is cracking. Just keep plugging away.

Anything worth having is worth fighting for.

 

[subish2009]

Well, that's good...I mean, you don't want me getting fat, after all. Gotta keep that girlish figure if I expect you to grant me the privelege of food and clothing and electricity and the right to bear your sons... Sigh, I'm so lucky.

Are you mad woman!! You have to be the one in the kitchen baking my cakes.

Tell you what, I’ll be generous and allow you one slice for every 5th baby you pop out. But remember they have to be boys, girls don't count.

 

[Netzach]

There's no evidence it is caused by sexism, it is simply women's choices.

The whole idea of corporate loyalty, longevity, and "oh shit she might get pregnant" is given the boot to the ass by the fact that now, recruiters wonder about you if you have *not* changed jobs in the last 5-10 years. Losing an employee to reproduction is less likely than losing one to counter offers, it's just that simple.

If you said it's more that they're completely clueless in regard to what they actually need and want when they hire people, or something about the changes in the workplace moving out from under how people think it actually works that's one thing. Women's bizzare choices to partner and have children are often matched by men. And now, as the costs of simply staying alive rise and rise, men are finding themselves more involved with their children - partly by force. Someone has to do it and only the very top among us can just pay other people to do so. Someone has to do it and when you need two incomes to keep a roof over your head, it begins to change paradigms.

However, only women are *punished* fiscally, for doing what men have to do as well now - pick up kids, drop off kids, take kids to the MD, all that crap. Because if you look around at a mid or low level white collar environment you see a LOT of that kind of thing from mothers AND fathers alike - the assumption is not in line with the reality.

A possible positive thing, don't get me wrong, but to talk about the salary gap, the realization that female bodies, male bodies, and total company loyalty and longevity are a crapshoot in reality is overdue.

 

[Netzach]

That's her bad for biting the apple first.

I'd actually like to see stats on women in the trades killed in the workplace versus men in the trades killed in the workplace. No shit there are fewer women in the trades than men. At the height of seventies feminism that everyone has a giant constipated shit about all the time a LOT of women were gravitating toward the trades, and toward law enforcement in the desire to do whatever men do.

If we treated sex work like work and not like crime that might also be very interesting to look at stats.

 

[ZRT]

I'd actually like to see stats on women in the trades killed in the workplace versus men in the trades killed in the workplace. No shit there are fewer women in the trades than men. At the height of seventies feminism that everyone has a giant constipated shit about all the time a LOT of women were gravitating toward the trades, and toward law enforcement in the desire to do whatever men do.

I'd be interested to see those stats as well. My experience is anecdotal, but women in the trades still tend to end up with the less dangerous jobs and spots when there's potential for losing life and limb.

If we treated sex work like work and not like crime that might also be very interesting to look at stats.

Agreed.

 

[Netzach]

I'd be interested to see those stats as well. My experience is anecdotal, but women in the trades still tend to end up with the less dangerous jobs and spots when there's potential for losing life and limb.

Yeah, we're also still focusing on the West, too. Which is my point about feminism policing people's sexuality being kind of indulgent and stupid. I don't think it's too terribly culturally imperialistic of me to want other women to work in a rape-free workplace where they are allowed to use the toilet.

 

[lennythelion]

To try and wrestle my thread back from this debate on whether sexism still exists in the post-feminist society, I'd like to say that my original post talked more than anything else about SOCIALISATION. We ALL have a view of society and certain questions based on how we have been influenced. Pre-women's lib generations tend to see things differently from those who have grown up with the notion that we should live in an equal society (which is not to say that we believe this equal society has come to pass). Socialisation is composed of individual values (usually family-derived), societal values, and systemic subliminal messages, which may be in contradiction to those espoused more generally.

In the context of my question, I personally, as a sub, find conflict. I fully understand that feminism has allowed me to choose rather than to endure, but the subliminal message I received is that under no circumstances would any self-respecting woman wish to put herself in a position where she has no say, where she is nothing more than a toy to a man. The fact that he has feelings for her does not make it easier to deal with. Without having done anything like women's studies, I have in my head a thousand images of abused women in "loving relationships" fed to me by the media in all its forms.

What makes the difference, is that I know that Sir respects me and respects women in general. But that is when I'm thinking.

The easiest way for me to deal with the conflict is simply to stop thinking and just feel, to let the sensations wash over me. As long as it feels right, all is well.

Looking at Sir, what messages has he received? That women should be treated with respect? That they should be protected? That they are just like men? That they are stronger? I guess I should have asked him the other night. (Perhaps if he reads this, he'll tell me.)

And what of you Doms? What messages do you think you've received, and what conflicts do they create, or not?

 

[Netzach]

To try and wrestle my thread back from this debate on whether sexism still exists in the post-feminist society, I'd like to say that my original post talked more than anything else about SOCIALISATION. We ALL have a view of society and certain questions based on how we have been influenced. Pre-women's lib generations tend to see things differently from those who have grown up with the notion that we should live in an equal society (which is not to say that we believe this equal society has come to pass). Socialisation is composed of individual values (usually family-derived), societal values, and systemic subliminal messages, which may be in contradiction to those espoused more generally.

In the context of my question, I personally, as a sub, find conflict. I fully understand that feminism has allowed me to choose rather than to endure, but the subliminal message I received is that under no circumstances would any self-respecting woman wish to put herself in a position where she has no say, where she is nothing more than a toy to a man. The fact that he has feelings for her does not make it easier to deal with. Without having done anything like women's studies, I have in my head a thousand images of abused women in "loving relationships" fed to me by the media in all its forms.

What makes the difference, is that I know that Sir respects me and respects women in general. But that is when I'm thinking.

The easiest way for me to deal with the conflict is simply to stop thinking and just feel, to let the sensations wash over me. As long as it feels right, all is well.

Looking at Sir, what messages has he received? That women should be treated with respect? That they should be protected? That they are just like men? That they are stronger? I guess I should have asked him the other night. (Perhaps if he reads this, he'll tell me.)

And what of you Doms? What messages do you think you've received, and what conflicts do they create, or not?

I don't think that Dominant women escape a lot of the same kinds of dialogues with feminism. Feminism is about *equality* *egalitarian-ness* the virtues of *non violence*, right? I know that most of the Dominant women I know have spent much more time thinking "there must be something wrong with me" than "girl power, woot!"

What exactly happens when you are eroticizing your capacity for violence?
What about when your own sexual gratification lines up with the gratification of men who think that women are surreptitiously more evil powerful and who are fetishizing you as a kind of sociopathic icon? Don't you begin to wonder if you're actually that thing?

Maybe you begin to despise the men who are attracted to you, at the same time that you're dependent on that attraction to get what you need. Maybe you're not into men at all, and you begin to wonder if your entire sexual thing is some kind of internalized self-hate, or internalized sexism or what?

I basically think that any people who go outside "man and a woman, the man in charge, but not *too* much or you're weird" are all equally suspect in the culture and screwed at the outset by that. Which has something to do with feminism, but just as much to do with capitalism, sexual-revolution access to sexuality, text message hookups and the rest of the picture.

 

[HussarVanburen]

All look upon this poor man as an example of the harmful effects of feminism. His sexuality has suffered not just mentally, spiritually, and emotionally, but also physically.

Seriously, eating cake should be forbidden for women. Think of all the more cake I would be getting.

Liberals like Antoinette simply have gone too far, what happened to the good old days when a man could smirk while watching other people starve.

Feminists is what happen.

The phrase "to have one's cake and eat it, too" does not derive from Antoinette. That is the famous, "Let them eat cake!" which actually references the burnt remains at the bottom of a bread pan, rather than the dessert.

 

[where]

Yeah, we're also still focusing on the West, too. Which is my point about feminism policing people's sexuality being kind of indulgent and stupid. I don't think it's too terribly culturally imperialistic of me to want other women to work in a rape-free workplace where they are allowed to use the toilet.

*be still my beating heart!*

To try and wrestle my thread back from this debate on whether sexism still exists in the post-feminist society, I'd like to say that my original post talked more than anything else about SOCIALISATION. We ALL have a view of society and certain questions based on how we have been influenced. Pre-women's lib generations tend to see things differently from those who have grown up with the notion that we should live in an equal society (which is not to say that we believe this equal society has come to pass). Socialisation is composed of individual values (usually family-derived), societal values, and systemic subliminal messages, which may be in contradiction to those espoused more generally.

In the context of my question, I personally, as a sub, find conflict. I fully understand that feminism has allowed me to choose rather than to endure, but the subliminal message I received is that under no circumstances would any self-respecting woman wish to put herself in a position where she has no say, where she is nothing more than a toy to a man. The fact that he has feelings for her does not make it easier to deal with. Without having done anything like women's studies, I have in my head a thousand images of abused women in "loving relationships" fed to me by the media in all its forms.

What makes the difference, is that I know that Sir respects me and respects women in general. But that is when I'm thinking.

The easiest way for me to deal with the conflict is simply to stop thinking and just feel, to let the sensations wash over me. As long as it feels right, all is well.

Looking at Sir, what messages has he received? That women should be treated with respect? That they should be protected? That they are just like men? That they are stronger? I guess I should have asked him the other night. (Perhaps if he reads this, he'll tell me.)

And what of you Doms? What messages do you think you've received, and what conflicts do they create, or not?

OK, as a non-sub but with a submissive sexual bent, i would say that being a lifestyle sub is not incompatible with feminism because you not only choose to be so, but you could also presumably walk away from it without fear of physical or legal punishment. the lack of a legal punishment is partly thanks to feminism and hopefully the lack of physical punishment is also because your Sir respects you as a fellow human being and not as a piece of property (even though you may have used such terms in your relationship) because he has been socialised to understand that this is the 'right' thing to do because of moves by the feminist movement.

 

[culloden]

Thank you for the clarification. I could be wrong about that, but living and working in New England, it seems people's attitudes are less hidebound here. That said, I've never lived in the South, and I am just going on impressions.

 

[YourCaptor]

To try and wrestle my thread back from this debate on whether sexism still exists in the post-feminist society, I'd like to say that my original post talked more than anything else about SOCIALISATION. We ALL have a view of society and certain questions based on how we have been influenced. Pre-women's lib generations tend to see things differently from those who have grown up with the notion that we should live in an equal society (which is not to say that we believe this equal society has come to pass). Socialisation is composed of individual values (usually family-derived), societal values, and systemic subliminal messages, which may be in contradiction to those espoused more generally.

In the context of my question, I personally, as a sub, find conflict. I fully understand that feminism has allowed me to choose rather than to endure, but the subliminal message I received is that under no circumstances would any self-respecting woman wish to put herself in a position where she has no say, where she is nothing more than a toy to a man. The fact that he has feelings for her does not make it easier to deal with. Without having done anything like women's studies, I have in my head a thousand images of abused women in "loving relationships" fed to me by the media in all its forms.

What makes the difference, is that I know that Sir respects me and respects women in general. But that is when I'm thinking.

The easiest way for me to deal with the conflict is simply to stop thinking and just feel, to let the sensations wash over me. As long as it feels right, all is well.

Looking at Sir, what messages has he received? That women should be treated with respect? That they should be protected? That they are just like men? That they are stronger? I guess I should have asked him the other night. (Perhaps if he reads this, he'll tell me.)

And what of you Doms? What messages do you think you've received, and what conflicts do they create, or not?

While current social trends don't welcome our kind of relationship with open arms, and the degree of adversity may be a little bit less then healthy, I think the "norm" relationship message is rather close to something healthy, and that is a good thing.

If their were more men like me in this world, it would be a fucked up place, this kind of thing only works in small doses. In fact it is only because of the opposition to this type of relationship that I feel comfortable indulging in it. If it was common, I think I would have to make the judgment call of forgoing it in favor of improving the world.

All that said though, I do wish their was a little bit more emphasis on person a freedom, as opposed to being left alone if you act like this.

What messages did I receive about women? You don't disrespect them, you should be prepared to protect them, not just yours but communally. However growing up my father, to put it simply, didn't fit into society. So I also got a very strong message that what you do in private does not have to match what you do in public, even to the point of illegal but logical activity. My mother was the bread winner. She was also the one that applied the pressure often required to get what we needed. So I know a lot women aren't pushovers, but I still feel that responsibility towards them.

 

[BiBunny]

Thank you for the clarification. I could be wrong about that, but living and working in New England, it seems people's attitudes are less hidebound here. That said, I've never lived in the South, and I am just going on impressions.

Yet you feel qualified to make sweeping generalizations?

 

[Keroin]

I'd be interested to see those stats as well. My experience is anecdotal, but women in the trades still tend to end up with the less dangerous jobs and spots when there's potential for losing life and limb.

I've got to jump in here. Let me get two cents out of my pocket first...

As a stunt performer, we gals did everything the men did except we did it in miniskirts and six inch heels with little/no protective padding underneath. No one ever expected us to be coddled because we were female and I preferred it that way. If I wanted a safe career I would have chosen one.

Injury rate was identical for both sexes in the business...frequent.


(Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread so this may have nothing to do with anything but I have a bit of chip on my shoulder about the notion that women must be protected)

 

[intothewoods]

To try and wrestle my thread back from this debate on whether sexism still exists in the post-feminist society, I'd like to say that my original post talked more than anything else about SOCIALISATION. We ALL have a view of society and certain questions based on how we have been influenced. Pre-women's lib generations tend to see things differently from those who have grown up with the notion that we should live in an equal society (which is not to say that we believe this equal society has come to pass). Socialisation is composed of individual values (usually family-derived), societal values, and systemic subliminal messages, which may be in contradiction to those espoused more generally.

In the context of my question, I personally, as a sub, find conflict. I fully understand that feminism has allowed me to choose rather than to endure, but the subliminal message I received is that under no circumstances would any self-respecting woman wish to put herself in a position where she has no say, where she is nothing more than a toy to a man. The fact that he has feelings for her does not make it easier to deal with. Without having done anything like women's studies, I have in my head a thousand images of abused women in "loving relationships" fed to me by the media in all its forms.

What makes the difference, is that I know that Sir respects me and respects women in general. But that is when I'm thinking.

The easiest way for me to deal with the conflict is simply to stop thinking and just feel, to let the sensations wash over me. As long as it feels right, all is well.

Looking at Sir, what messages has he received? That women should be treated with respect? That they should be protected? That they are just like men? That they are stronger? I guess I should have asked him the other night. (Perhaps if he reads this, he'll tell me.)

And what of you Doms? What messages do you think you've received, and what conflicts do they create, or not?

First of all, let me just say generally in this thread that feminsm and women's studies are not synonymous.

I don't think you should stop thinking. I'm not advocating political correctness in your relationship, but I do think it's important that you feel comfortable with your relationship. What you do in the bedroom is one thing. How you interact and relate to your partner outside of the bedroom is another. If your Dom is going to be in your life, that person is going to meet and spend time with your friends and family. Now, your dynamic need not be on complete display, but whatever it is, you should feel comfortable.

 

[ZRT]

I've got to jump in here. Let me get two cents out of my pocket first...

As a stunt performer, we gals did everything the men did except we did it in miniskirts and six inch heels with little/no protective padding underneath. No one ever expected us to be coddled because we were female and I preferred it that way. If I wanted a safe career I would have chosen one.

Injury rate was identical for both sexes in the business...frequent.


(Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread so this may have nothing to do with anything but I have a bit of chip on my shoulder about the notion that women must be protected)

Hence why I said my experience is anecdotal. I can see how it'd be different in the stunt biz- there's no substituting a two hundred pound guy for a ninety pound woman there.

But in construction/industrial, where you do see women you're more likely (in my experience) to see them operating the excavator rather than being in the ditch shoveling. There are exceptions, and it's no slight to the work ethic of the women involved. And where there's that sort of 'get your face melted off' risk, it's usually the men that get put into the line of fire.

And at the risk of chipping at the chip on your shoulder, given the choice I'd rather take the risk myself than put a woman in the line of fire. Call me an old-fashioned cro magon and I'll smile, nod, and club you, but it's just the way I am.

 

[Keroin]

Hence why I said my experience is anecdotal. I can see how it'd be different in the stunt biz- there's no substituting a two hundred pound guy for a ninety pound woman there.

But in construction/industrial, where you do see women you're more likely (in my experience) to see them operating the excavator rather than being in the ditch shoveling. There are exceptions, and it's no slight to the work ethic of the women involved. And where there's that sort of 'get your face melted off' risk, it's usually the men that get put into the line of fire.

And at the risk of chipping at the chip on your shoulder, given the choice I'd rather take the risk myself than put a woman in the line of fire. Call me an old-fashioned cro magon and I'll smile, nod, and club you, but it's just the way I am.

Club away, cro-man. I think that instinct of yours is not exclusive to men alone, though. I feel equally protective of those who are smaller and/or weaker than me in some capacity.

 

[Franks_Angel]

Feminists are great. They are like our military .. having fought so women have the right to CHOOSE.

Femi-nazis should be taken into the showers with no water and exterminated.

MNSHO

Feminists gave me the right to choose my path. That path has ALWAYS, my whole adult life, been "Domestic". Housewife. Stay-at-home-mother. Homeschooling mother. Slave.

 

[ataxia.girl]

i used to be really conflicted about being both a feminist and a submissive. The stereotypical Male Dom/female sub still makes me uncomfortable. i try to do the "whatever works for them" thing but sometimes i wonder if it really is working. Some subs seem to thrive and some seem to just continue to feel bad about themselves and constantly anxious all the time they will displease their PYL and he will leave.

i basically solved my own conflict by no longer identifying as a submissive. i wield my feminine power in my relationship with Daddy and i don't mean feminine as it has been defined traditionally by any Patriarchy. i can express wrath and a desire to destroy as well as play helpless little girl and relish in being taken care of. i enjoy being in a cage where i am free to express anything without fear of abandonment or even punishment.

i don't do obedient submissive because for me personally it is just too similar to the patriarchy i escaped. Although my husband and i are very egalitarian that is not the formula which really turns me on. It works for us to raise kids and feel comfortably safe and attached with each other but we have to work to find the passion. We are strictly bedroom D/s. i used to think i wanted something more outside the bedroom but i have found in the end my husband was right and we just work better side by side. We even tried it for awhile but it just stirred up too much anger and frustration in me and kept me from really being able to move forward out of my issues with Patriarchy in general.

Everyone has to find their own way. i do think there are women who have a desire to be over-powered who basically settle for a traditional Dom/sub relationship which requires their unquestioning obedience because they are not aware they can demand something else and still achieve a power exchange. They attempt to be whatever it is a Dom wants and end up unhappy, fearful and anxious. i think for the most part those relationships don't last all that long.

The other thing i think feminism has done had been to basically suck all the fun and excitement out of the "negotiation" process. Everything is a conversation, everything becomes civil, mature dialog between two adults. Each side TALKS at the negotiation table about what they need\want\expect in a way that honestly feels way to egalitarian and equal for me. i don't want to negotiate as two rational adults. i prefer to "negotiate" between the sheets or on the floor.

Ultimately for a woman to exercise feminism within any relationship means she knows what she wants and figures out how to get it. Maybe she wants to be perfectly obedient and to be shaped into whatever it is her Dom wants. If that is what turns her gears then i say great. If she desires to feel dominated, over powered, powerless in a relationship but is unhappy with the traditional slave or sub role then she needs to figure that out and get what she needs\wants.

A lot of Doms like to wax on about how they would never put up with a disobedient sub\slave but the fact is there are plenty who really have no problem with it. i think part of the rhetoric against it derives from the online crowd. In a virtual world the only way you can control a woman is for her to be obedient and submissive all the time. This just isn't the case when you are talking about face to face interaction. i've had Doms go on and on about how they would never put up with me and i'm impossible and yet is very easy for Daddy. He just ignores most of it and fucks his holes when he feels like it. The rest is just banter, chatter and entertainment.

 

[Cattypuss]

Like Lenny I was born in the 60s in the UK and consider myself a post-feminist - an egalitarian.

To me, being able to walk out of the bedroom after a scene in which I have been dominated, hurt and humiliated by a man, and being able once we cross that threshold to view and treat him as an equal and have him view and treat me as an equal... well, that's something I have to thank the feminist movement for. 40 years ago I would not have been able to hope, much less expect, to be viewed as an equal outside the bedroom after submitting inside the bedroom.

 

[bisexualsmoker]

Growing up in the 70s and 80s, I consider myself a "post-feminist". That is, it isn't my generation that burned their bras or fought for equal pay or whatever. In fact, "feminism" is something of a dirty word to those of us born in the 60s. I usually prefer to think of myself as an "egalitarian".

And I realise that men of my generation think the same way. They have certain ideas about how women are and how they should be in relation to them, that are very different from our parents' generation. Of course, this is a good thing. Unless you want him to slam you against the wall and pull your hair.

I am sure I am not the only woman who has experienced a warring of emotions between the "modern egalitarian woman" persona she has always identified with, and the "submissive slut" persona she revels in being. I expected it. I deal with it.

What I didn't expect was that Sir also experiences the same warring of emotions. While he has no problem tying me up and fucking me dirty, he balks somewhat at my requests for him to be rougher, and I am not sure what to say because I find it incongruous that he should want to attach clothes pins to various parts of my body and drip hot wax on my skin, but not pull my hair a little bit.

Anyone else with similar experiences? And philosophically, how do you deal with this warring of emotions?

As far as the textbook practice goes, according to the official rules, I can't really say much,
being an outsider to the true, proper-core etiquette and set in stone criteria of the
engulfed, established d/s scene.
I can only listen to what my friends tell me, which is "fuck the little wench hard until
she quits fucking whining."
Otherwise, I'm completely at a loss.