Post-feminism and BDSM

[ataxia.girl]

The glass ceiling is very real. Trust me on this one, i am close enough i can touch it. If i look to either side i see women right up against it just like me. On the other side i only see dicks with stock options.

 

[Netzach]

I've never been arrested for trying to vote or anything, but I've had enough crap happen to me because I'm a woman to know that what "they're" selling isn't BS. Isn't this like telling black people, "Oh, well, since the Jim Crow laws were abolished, you have nothing to bitch about, and you're all just paranoid fucks"?

God Almighty damn.

Sexism isn't over?

 

[Netzach]

My point wasn't that everything said in womens' studies classes is BS. There is no doubt that evil things happen to some women. The men who do those things should have their balls fed to them.

Maybe a better approach is to say that social trends tend to pendulum. I'd venture that misogyny was more common and accepted 40 or 50 years ago than today. I've worked with many older men, and often their attitudes toward women appall me. I don't see that very much in people my age (late 40s) and younger. Women's studies classes represent the pendulum swinging the other way, in that they focus on the ugly side. Most people's experience today is probably somewhere in the middle. But why would anyone raise that point in a college class? It's not controversial enough to trigger discussion, and it doesn't do much to raise anyone's consciousness.

I don't agree. I think in dealing with someone who's raised in a pre-feminist paradigm at least you *know* what the hell you are getting. When you can't *really* be sure what the deal is, but you know you are being excluded in some way from access to power in your professional life, it's much more effective oppression - it's not them, it's always you. The perpetual "I must be crazy" that you experience is much more comfortable than thinking "everyone else is crazy" - a most disheartening realization.

 

[PertPerth]

This is another very interesting thread!

I was born in the 70's, grew up in the 80's - and my mother is a baby boomer (dad was born pre-war). In my mind, feminism is a dirty word. I'm very much in favour of equal opportunity, and tend to see feminism as two steps forward and one step back for women's rights.

The glass ceiling - don't get me started. I work in a male dominated industry and have been pushed out of the way more times that I can remember. A classic example was when our team moved floors last year and I end up sharing an office with a graduate (I'm more senior than he is) - HE gets the window seat (with beautiful river views) and I got the aisle view. Usually a point is made that the more senior person gets the window view. A little thing, sure, but it happens all to regularly for it to be a one-off oversight.

My mother has often given me grief for being born at the "right time" where I have the ability to choose my career (more than just nursing, teaching or secretarial duties). One day she'll tell me she's proud, the next day she'll be ranting on about "women who become managers are always bitches" when she knows that I'm studying an MBA. My point is that it's not just men who are contributing to the issue, it's women too. We are all responsible (equally).

As for BSDM, I don't think that it is a conflicting concept - not to all the people here. There was a thread not long ago looking at "who has the real power in a relationship" in which many people pointed out that the pyl had power over the PYL. So, in my mind, it's just like all other modern relationships. If we look to some developing countries where women really are marginalised (in an extreem sense), then it's a different matter.

 

[HussarVanburen]

Feminism is deleterious to the mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical well being of individuals, famileis, societies, nations, and civilizations and my sexual worldview reflects that fact.

Furthermore, to speak of limits is to speak of absurdity. What right does property have? Women are property when fully claimed.

I also question the legitimate submissiveness of a woman who thinks that she can have her cake and eat it, too. Subs that play the game of "oh, I am only a sub in the bedroom" seem to me to be entirely disingenuous.

 

[YourCaptor]

Feminism is deleterious to the mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical well being of individuals, famileis, societies, nations, and civilizations and my sexual worldview reflects that fact.

Furthermore, to speak of limits is to speak of absurdity. What right does property have? Women are property when fully claimed.

I also question the legitimate submissiveness of a woman who thinks that she can have her cake and eat it, too. Subs that play the game of "oh, I am only a sub in the bedroom" seem to me to be entirely disingenuous.

All look upon this poor man as an example of the harmful effects of feminism. His sexuality has suffered not just mentally, spiritually, and emotionally, but also physically.

Seriously, eating cake should be forbidden for women. Think of all the more cake I would be getting.

Liberals like Antoinette simply have gone too far, what happened to the good old days when a man could smirk while watching other people starve.

Feminists is what happen.

 

[Daddys_Touch]

I've not seen data for the US, but in the UK there is no glass ceiling for women per se. Single women actually earn slightly more than men. When the average woman goes from single (earning 1.1% more than the average man) to married, her pay falls by over 15 percentage points to 14.5% less than the average man.

There are a number of reasons. Married woman are more likely than single women (or men full stop) to get pregnant which means maternity leave and her possibly quitting altogether, leaving her employer without all the skills and knowledge she had, and the cost of hiring someone else (either temporarily, or permanently). Employers know this, so they factor the costs of employing married women into their pay structures. Whilst the likelihood of marriage increases with men's incomes, it decreases with women's i.e. lower income women are more likely to get married. Thus, married women are more likely to rely, to some extent, on their husband's income so they are more likely to work part time or not at all, and are less likely to seek high paying employment. Married women are also more likely to have children, which leads women to work part time or not at all.

The more children a woman has, the larger the pay gap between comparable males e.g. the average woman with 1 child suffers a 12.3% pay gap between herself an the average male with 1 child, and the average woman with 4 children suffers a 35.5% pay gap between herself and the average man with 4 children. Again, there are several reasons. The more children a woman has, the more likely she is to work part time or not at all, reducing income as number of children increases. The underlying hourly figures show that men tend to earn slightly more, the more children they have (either because richer men can afford more children, or because men with more children have to work harder), so you have a push-pull that widens the gap by 5-7% with each child.

There's no evidence it is caused by sexism, it is simply women's choices.

 

[PertPerth]

There's no evidence it is caused by sexism, it is simply women's choices.

Rubbish. You're not comparing apples with apples. If I wasn't so tired, I'd look up the journal articles I read last trimester for uni. The studies which have compared women Vs men in the same job, same amount of experience and qualifications show that men are always paid more.
One of the reasons is that women don't ask for pay rises - and are seen to be pushy if they do. Men, on the other hand, ask for payrises and are given them because they're seen as assertive when they ask.

 

[culloden]

I don't agree. I think in dealing with someone who's raised in a pre-feminist paradigm at least you *know* what the hell you are getting. When you can't *really* be sure what the deal is, but you know you are being excluded in some way from access to power in your professional life, it's much more effective oppression - it's not them, it's always you. The perpetual "I must be crazy" that you experience is much more comfortable than thinking "everyone else is crazy" - a most disheartening realization.

Interesting take. And I don't deny the glass ceiling, but think it's probably more prevalent in the South and parts of the West. I work in publishing in the Northeast, and at least in my little world, it doesn't seem to be an issue. The last company I worked for had a woman CEO, and about half the group publishers were women. While the company I work for now has a male CEO, something like a third of the publishers are women. Not bad, considering we specialize in topics that are traditionally male.

While there may be value in knowing what you're getting, I'm not sure my mother would have agreed with your overall view. She came of age in the 1950s, and was one sharp and classy lady. Her career was limited because she never went to college. The reason she didn't go to college was that, "Girls just didn't do that then." You have come a long way, baby. (I hope you're old enough to remember that commercial!)

All of which is far afield from the original question, what place feminism in BDSM?

 

[Daddys_Touch]

Rubbish. You're not comparing apples with apples. If I wasn't so tired, I'd look up the journal articles I read last trimester for uni. The studies which have compared women Vs men in the same job, same amount of experience and qualifications show that men are always paid more.
One of the reasons is that women don't ask for pay rises - and are seen to be pushy if they do. Men, on the other hand, ask for payrises and are given them because they're seen as assertive when they ask.

Neither is that evidence of sexism, nor does it contradict what I said. I don't disagree that women in the same jobs as men with the same experience, skills and qualifications are paid lower than men.

 

[WriterDom]

You talk about the glass ceiling but what about the cement basement? For 2008:

Men suffered 4,703 fatalities in the workplace
Women suffered 368 fatalities in the workplace

Not getting a promotion is one thing. Dead is dead.

 

[BiBunny]

There's no evidence it is caused by sexism, it is simply women's choices.

Bullshit.

Interesting take. And I don't deny the glass ceiling, but think it's probably more prevalent in the South and parts of the West.

Bullshit.

 

[Daddys_Touch]

Bullshit.

Suddenly I'm convinced.

 

[where]

I've not seen data for the US, but in the UK there is no glass ceiling for women per se. Single women actually earn slightly more than men. When the average woman goes from single (earning 1.1% more than the average man) to married, her pay falls by over 15 percentage points to 14.5% less than the average man.

There are a number of reasons. Married woman are more likely than single women (or men full stop) to get pregnant which means maternity leave and her possibly quitting altogether, leaving her employer without all the skills and knowledge she had, and the cost of hiring someone else (either temporarily, or permanently). Employers know this, so they factor the costs of employing married women into their pay structures. Whilst the likelihood of marriage increases with men's incomes, it decreases with women's i.e. lower income women are more likely to get married. Thus, married women are more likely to rely, to some extent, on their husband's income so they are more likely to work part time or not at all, and are less likely to seek high paying employment. Married women are also more likely to have children, which leads women to work part time or not at all.

The more children a woman has, the larger the pay gap between comparable males e.g. the average woman with 1 child suffers a 12.3% pay gap between herself an the average male with 1 child, and the average woman with 4 children suffers a 35.5% pay gap between herself and the average man with 4 children. Again, there are several reasons. The more children a woman has, the more likely she is to work part time or not at all, reducing income as number of children increases. The underlying hourly figures show that men tend to earn slightly more, the more children they have (either because richer men can afford more children, or because men with more children have to work harder), so you have a push-pull that widens the gap by 5-7% with each child.

There's no evidence it is caused by sexism, it is simply women's choices.

would you care to post references/links for these stats?

 

[subish2009]

All look upon this poor man as an example of the harmful effects of feminism. His sexuality has suffered not just mentally, spiritually, and emotionally, but also physically.

Seriously, eating cake should be forbidden for women. Think of all the more cake I would be getting.

Liberals like Antoinette simply have gone too far, what happened to the good old days when a man could smirk while watching other people starve.

Feminists is what happen.

You're awesome.

Hey, what if I only want to eat my cake in the bedroom? Is that allowed?

 

[ataxia.girl]

Bullshit.



Bullshit.

my company is national. All you have to do is go to their website and look at the pictures of all the executives to know the glass ceiling is not bullshit.

i know some of the women who could easily fill those shoes and them not being there has nothing to do with their "choices." Most of them have chosen not even to have children at all because their careers come first.

So yeah... i second bunny's bullshit and call bullshit.

These guys only give big bonuses and stock options on the golf course and boobies are not invited. They'll screw you on the pool table but the real decisions are made smoking cigars and drinking bourbon and vaginas are not invited.

The good old boys club is alive in well in my industry.

 

[Sharpened]

While I'm not going to disagree with the assertions that the glass ceilings exist and that women are discriminated against, nonspecific anecdotes aren't particularly helpful.

The fact that all the executives of a company are male, by itself, is not evidence of anything. Sure, it probably happened as a result of sexism, but definitly not necessarily.

So giving a singular example, or even just refutations backed up by nothing aren't interesting or helpful discussion.

I find the most fascinating thing about the glass ceiling is how unconcious it is. Feminism has done a wonderful job at reducing the number of people who consciously beleive that women are inferior (obviously, they are still out there). The fact is that far too many of decisions made about people are made based on factors that the decisionmaker is not aware of.

Look, it's no surprise that the majority of Fortune 500 company CEO's are white men. And people will go on and on to their blue in the face arguing about why that is for both factors (WHITE and MEN). But the most revealing this is that they are TALL, white men. In the US, 14.5% of all men are 6 feet or taller. Among those CEO's, 58% are 6 feet plus. Think about that for a second.

No one is going to argue that tall men work harder, prioritize their career more or whatever. It's not like there is a sign in HR like outside of a rollercoaster "You must be this tall to run the company", or people need CEO's that can grab something off of a high shelf without a step ladder.

People aren't as rational as we think we are. Corrected for pretty much all other factors, each inch of height tends to work out into a difference of $789 a year in salary. And that's among everybody, not just among CEOs and other leadership positions.

If we are incapable of treating people of different heights equally (correcting for other factors), how the hell are we supposed to treat men and women equally?

 

[00Syd]

Heightism!!

 

[YourCaptor]

You're awesome.

Hey, what if I only want to eat my cake in the bedroom? Is that allowed?

Are you mad woman!! You have to be the one in the kitchen baking my cakes.

Tell you what, I’ll be generous and allow you one slice for every 5th baby you pop out. But remember they have to be boys, girls don't count.

 

[Daddys_Touch]

would you care to post references/links for these stats?

Office for National Statistics (table 1, page 23).

 

[where]

Office for National Statistics (table 1, page 23).

no, I meant this stuff:

There are a number of reasons. Married woman are more likely than single women (or men full stop) to get pregnant which means maternity leave and her possibly quitting altogether, leaving her employer without all the skills and knowledge she had, and the cost of hiring someone else (either temporarily, or permanently). Employers know this, so they factor the costs of employing married women into their pay structures. Whilst the likelihood of marriage increases with men's incomes, it decreases with women's i.e. lower income women are more likely to get married. Thus, married women are more likely to rely, to some extent, on their husband's income so they are more likely to work part time or not at all, and are less likely to seek high paying employment. Married women are also more likely to have children, which leads women to work part time or not at all.

and the bit about it not being down to sexism, but women's choice to earn less.

 

[Daddys_Touch]

no, I meant this stuff:



and the bit about it not being down to sexism, but women's choice to earn less.

The latter is a conclusion, not a statistic i.e. there is evidence that the behaviour of women* leads to the wives/mothers pay gap, there is no evidence that sexism does. Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary as you have seen: single women earn more, not less, than men.

All the figures are in the ONS report. Some assertions extrapolated, but the data is in there.

*Not just individuals, but women as a whole, i.e. it's not necessarily the 'fault' of an individual woman that she earns less than a comparable man, the behaviour of other women affects her income too. A married woman may not have children, but because married women tend to have children, she gets paid less. The same as not all young people are bad drivers, but because they tend to be, insurance companies charge them higher premiums.

 

[where]

The latter is a conclusion, not a statistic i.e. there is evidence that the behaviour of women* leads to the wives/mothers pay gap, there is no evidence that sexism does. Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary as you have seen: single women earn more, not less, than men.

All the figures are in the ONS report. Some assertions extrapolated, but the data is in there.

*Not just individuals, but women as a whole, i.e. it's not necessarily the 'fault' of an individual woman that she earns less than a comparable man, the behaviour of other women affects her income too. A married woman may not have children, but because married women tend to have children, she gets paid less. The same as not all young people are bad drivers, but because they tend to be, insurance companies charge them higher premiums.

which is sexism. the very definition of sexism is being treated differently on the basis of gender. the ONS report you linked is very clear that the pay gap is not only in existence but significant.

your suggestion that women 'choose' to be paid less because they marry or have children would indicate that you have failed to have caught up with the 20th century, let alone the 21st.

 

[culloden]

Bullshit.



Bullshit.

I'd be curious for how you back that up. It's a great premise, but lacking in proof.

I acknowledged the glass ceiling, said I thought is was more prevalent in certain geographic areas, and said that I thought that two of the companies I've worked for had made good progress. I also mentioned my mother's experiences as an anecdotal illustration of how society has in fact changed. I'm really unsure what you're calling bullshit on.

 

[intothewoods]

I'd be curious for how you back that up. It's a great premise, but lacking in proof.

I acknowledged the glass ceiling, said I thought is was more prevalent in certain geographic areas, and said that I thought that two of the companies I've worked for had made good progress. I also mentioned my mother's experiences as an anecdotal illustration of how society has in fact changed. I'm really unsure what you're calling bullshit on.

I think she's calling bullshit on your statement that you think the glass ceiling is more prevalent in the South and parts of the West.

You didn't exactly cite any proof for your statement either. But you're hardly the first in this thread.