Fascism is a violent and non-humanistic sub-set of Socialism

Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
36,253
As one begins to analyze the underpinnings of fascist thought, one learns that this is a group highly anti-capitalist people. One would be hard pressed to find a Bolshevik or a Social Democrat more vehement in his or her renunciation of traditional capitalism. For example in the 1930s, George Orwell (1984 and others) lamented that the struggle leaving so many dead and wounded is, essentially, between fascists and socialists since, at the end of the day (inside joke – disregard) “We are all the same.”

Indeed, in 1932, Hitler’s National Socialist German Workers Party campaigned against both the Marxists and the Capitalists, urging the folks to believe that the nazi system will take the best of both the other systems and create “a new socialist man.”

In his, The Coming American Fascism, 1936, Lawrence Dennis—noted American economist and anti-Semite—boasted that classic liberalism—that is, 18th-century Americanism—would soon become a laughing stock, and that, liberal norms of law or constitutional guarantees of private rights, would be replaced by fascism, that is, the enterprises of public welfare and social control. And, Dennis stated further...
[Fascism] does not accept the liberal dogmas as to the sovereignty of the consumer or trader in the free market.... Least of all does it consider that market freedom, and the opportunity to make competitive profits, are rights of the individual. Such decisions should be made by a 'dominant class', an 'elite'.

See, for example, Lawrence Dennis’ work, The Coming American Fascism (1936), in which he author asserts that 18th Century Americanism, with its foolish notions of liberal norms of law and constitutional guarantees will be replaced by the more efficient fascist system, in which enterprises of public welfare and social control replace greedy and anti-social (read: Jewish) individual economic endeavors which only lead to a capitalist elite class. Gaetano Mosca’s The Ruling Class (1923), restate these notions. Mosca was, as I’m sure y’all know, an Italian Fascist.

Mosca was critical of parliamentary government in his early work, but later, especially in the material added to the 1923 edition of the Elementi, he spoke strongly of its merits; he saw it as the one form of organization able "to utilize almost all human values in the political and administrative departments of government, … [in which] the door has been left open to all elements in the governed classes to make their way into the ruling classes" (The Ruling Class, p. 389). Thus, although Mosca thought that recognition of the inevitable existence of the ruling class in any society was sufficient to destroy the illusions of democratic ideologies, his conclusions are not easy to distinguish from the standard doctrines of socialist political philosophy.

But let’s move on to Spain. I love Spain this time of year. Don’t you? Of course you do! Let’s take a look at the 1936 speech made to the Cortes by the fascist Calvo Sotelo: “I am proposing the integrated state, which will bring economic justice, and which will say with due authority: no more strikes, no more lock-outs, no more usury, no more starvation wages, no more criminal conspiracies against full production, no more capitalist abuses.” The purest socialist state is the fascist state, “If this be the Fascist State, then I proudly declare myself a Fascist!” Of course, Sotelo was assassinated by a Republican (no, not the one Lincoln was in) Army conspiracy working in tandem with the Spanish Socialist-Communist Your League). That’s how the Spanish Civil War got its trolley under way.

Why, even the Bambino, Il Duce, [aka: His Excellency Benito Mussolini, Head of Government, Duce of Fascism, and Founder of the Empire] helps us see that fascism is merely a sect or sub-section of socialism and socialist philosophy: [In reference to the communists’ viewpoints] “In the whole negative part, we are alike. We and the Russians are against the liberals, against democrats, against parliament”. – Mussolini 1932.

What is now considered to be “socialist” philosophy arose under the combined influence of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution. The common theme history was telling us was that the uncontrolled concentration of wealth and unbridled competition would lead to increased suffering by the common man and one socio-economic crisis after another. The idea was to create a system that would organize the means of production so as to do away with poverty and oppression. You with me, camera guy, I can’t do this all day.

Besides the ideals of equality, social programs, and the abolition of private ownership and control over the means of production, both socialist theory and fascist theory were in agreement. It is a common mistake to regard the Nazi movement simply as a revolt against reason, an irrational spasm without intellectual background. Were that the case, National Socialism would have been far less dangerous! Indeed, the doctrines of National Socialism are the culmination of a long evolution of thought, a process in which historic contributors had had substantial influence far beyond the borders of Germany.

Like a monster born with hidden but hideous birth defect, the logic of National Socialism, once its initial premise is accepted, flows smoothly and naturally as a nearly perfect socialist system: essential collectivism, but one in which progress is no longer fettered by inconvenient notions of individualism. Thus, fascism is the exact antithesis of individualism, is the antichrist of capitalist thought, substituting a nation-state based socialist social and economic system for a capitalist or state-capitalist (“Communist”) system and, lacking all sense of individualism, becomes the more brutal section of the socialist movement.

So here we are! “But master, I was taught in school that the Nazi movement was a capitalist knee-jerk over-reaction to the onset of European socialism, blended with a beer and sausage aroma of exaggerated nationalism!”

Not quite, Grasshopper! The support which brought National Socialism to power in Germany came precisely from the socialist camp. The engine of National Socialism came not from an overly strong bourgeoisie, but from its absence!

As we all can figure, political philosophy is not lineal but circular. If you go far enough to the right, you end up on the left, and vice versa. The socialists on the far left drift around the circle like the condiment lazy susan over at Dan Rather’s house, until they become “little Hitlers” as people here on the GB like to say, for whatever reason. It was the fusion of radical and conservative socialism that killed off liberal notions of individual rights in Germany.

The connection between socialism and nationalism in Germany was close from the beginning. It is significant that the most important ancestors of National Socialism—Fichte, Rodbertus, and Lassalle—are at the same time acknowledged fathers of socialism. .... From 1914 onward there arose from the ranks of Marxist socialism one teacher after another who led, not the conservatives and reactionaries, but the hard-working laborer and idealist youth into the National Socialist fold. It was only thereafter that the tide of nationalist socialism attained major importance and rapidly grew into the Hitlerian doctrine. OKAY !!!!

I know that many of you have the attention span of a snail darter with attention deficit disorder, so I will give you the CLIFF NOTES carry-in-your purse-or-wallet cheat-sheet Easy-Target-Rule-Of-Thumb card which, for your amusement, has some generalizations salted here and there so you can pick on those when your failure to grasp the earlier parts of this post frustrate you. Here we go now…..
How am I to be able to tell that fascists are socialists, Coach?

Well, the Nazis called themselves The National Socialist German Workers Party, not, The National Capitalist German Plutocrats Party, and the National Socialists boasted that Hitler had created in Germany, the most modern socialist state in the world.
Also, Ernst Roehm, a dedicated socialist, leader of the SA, second only to Hitler in power in the National Socialist Party, in a letter to a friend, observed how often his street thugs switched back and forth between Roehm's National Socialist gangs and the Communist gangs, uncertain on whose side they rightly belonged.


While you are thinking about it, consider that in Mussolini's early days, before his rise to power, many of his Marxist critics viewed his fascism as a curiosity and recognized it as more of a heresy from, rather than a mortal challenge to revolutionary Marxism. (See Agursky's, The Third Rome, 1963.)


Beginners stop. Advanced may continue:


During the 1920s and 30s, because such little practical difference existed between fascists and Bolsheviks, critics of Hitler's National Socialism routinely called it, National Bolshevism. Needless to say the Bolshevists got all pouty and pissed off to have to share the same bed with the fascists and invented their very own “agency theory” of fascism. (Any of you eve take this stuff in school? No? Okay, let’s continue. So the Comintern established the 1930s version of “inherited from Bush;” “end of the day” mantra that fascism must immediately and forever more be associated with capitalism and thereby, per formal Stalinist/Leninist dogma, fascism became the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinist, and most imperialist elements of finance capital. That dumb tune played over and over and over again and is still popular with the left today! Imagine that! Although there is nothing to suggest it is true, leftists insist (via snark and ad hominem fallacy, of course) that fascism is a necessary component of capitalism. Needless to say the critics of the socialist gospel get tagged as fascists through this little joke for half-wits.


In his book, The Road to Serfdom, Friedrich August von Hayek (recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences in 1974), Hayek remarks that, during the 1930s, the propagandists of both parties recognized the relative ease with which a young communist could be converted into a Nazi or vice versa and how university professors in the U.S. and Britain noticed that students returning from study in Germany could not decide whether they were Marxists or fascists, but were certain only that they hated, Western Civilization. But I guess that’s one of those Nobel Prize LOL moments. What does Hayek know, right? If he’s so smart, why’s he dead, right? RIGHT?

But what do I know? I bet I can find an online dictionary that proves me wrong in some sort of really cool WIKI-WAY (not to be confused with Mikey Way…)
 
has the daft bint put the quote marks in or is she still passing other's work off as her own?
 
Old Today, 12:13 PM

Kybele
This message is hidden because Kybele is on your ignore list.


Let me guess: It can't refute it, so it's claiming I stole it. Right?

What a stupid piece of shit.

Never should have taken it off iggy last week.
 
Hey, KillBill:

No, that’s just C&P.

All you do is cut and paste.

Ever had an original thought?
 
Actually, I've known it for years, being educated and experienced an all.:D

I love the way, even when warned in advance, they can't resist the ad hominem cheap shot. If you post anything well thought out, it has to have been stolen. Why is that? Because they majored in "feelings" in school and the only way THEY made it through was by cheating (or blowing the professor - or both).
 
I like to remind the bevy of deniers here that Mussolini edited the Italian Socialist magazine Avanti before coming to power.

I am not claiming moral equivalence between Benito Mussolini and Ronald Reagan, but Reagan voted for Franklin Roosevelt four times.

James Burnham, who became an editor of National Review, was at one time a Trotskyist. People change their minds.
 
George Orwell on fascism

As one begins to analyze the underpinnings of fascist thought, one learns that this is a group highly anti-capitalist people. One would be hard pressed to find a Bolshevik or a Social Democrat more vehement in his or her renunciation of traditional capitalism. For example in the 1930s, George Orwell (1984 and others) lamented that the struggle leaving so many dead and wounded is, essentially, between fascists and socialists since, at the end of the day (inside joke – disregard) “We are all the same.”

Where did George Orwell write that? I have a four volume set of The Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters of George Orwell.

In the first volume, which covered Orwell's writings from 1920 to 1940 I could not find that quote. I did find, "I think one must fight for Socialism and against Fascism. I mean fight physically with weapons," and "Fascism is only a development of capitalism."
 
Last edited:
Hitler on the Social Democrat Party

Indeed, in 1932, Hitler’s National Socialist German Workers Party campaigned against both the Marxists and the Capitalists, urging the folks to believe that the nazi system will take the best of both the other systems and create “a new socialist man.”

In Mein Kampf Hitler condemns Marxism as vehemently as he condemned the Jews. The index of my edition of Mein Kampf does not include an entry for capitalism. This is what he wrote about Social Democracy in Chapter II, "Years of Study and Suffering:"

"At the age of seventeen I had rarely heard the word 'Marxism,' whereas 'Social Democracy' and 'Socialism' were identical ideas to me. Here too, the hand of fate had to open my eyes to this unprecedented betrayal of the people.

"Till then I had known the Social Democratic Party only from a spectator's point of view, on the occasion of various mass demonstrations, without having the slightest insight into the mentality of its followers or the meaning of its doctrine; but now I suddenly came into contact with the products of its education and view of life; I not achieved in a few months what otherwise might have taken decades: the realization that it was a pestilential whore covered with the mask of social virtue and brotherly love, and that mankind must rid the world of her as soon as possible, or otherwise the world might easily be rid of mankind."
 
Unread Today, 12:50 PM

The_Trouvere
This message is hidden because The_Trouvere is on your ignore list.


=======

More accusations that I stole?

I presume so.

Why not go talk to people who agree with you all the time?

That's best. Then everyone agrees and it's a happy happy world for ya.
 
Unread Today, 12:50 PM

The_Trouvere
This message is hidden because The_Trouvere is on your ignore list.


=======

More accusations that I stole?

I presume so.

Why not go talk to people who agree with you all the time?

That's best. Then everyone agrees and it's a happy happy world for ya.

You just put me on your ignore list. That is because you have not been able to answer my arguments.
 
Old Today, 12:13 PM

Kybele
This message is hidden because Kybele is on your ignore list.


Let me guess: It can't refute it, so it's claiming I stole it. Right?

What a stupid piece of shit.

Never should have taken it off iggy last week.

So, you put Kybele on your ignore list too. That's a lot easier than refuting her arguments.
 
Unread Today, 12:50 PM

The_Trouvere
This message is hidden because The_Trouvere is on your ignore list.


=======

More accusations that I stole?

I presume so.

Why not go talk to people who agree with you all the time?

That's best. Then everyone agrees and it's a happy happy world for ya
 
Unread Today, 12:50 PM

The_Trouvere
This message is hidden because The_Trouvere is on your ignore list.


=======

More accusations that I stole?

I presume so.

Why not go talk to people who agree with you all the time?

That's best. Then everyone agrees and it's a happy happy world for ya

Oh Oh. Karen Kraft is getting angry. Pretty soon s/he will start to post huge photos to stretch out the comments. :eek:

You can avoid the truth, but you cannot refute it.
 
A favored tactic of the intellectually indolent, or an involuntary response to a successful intellectual ambush.:D

For them, it's some sort of mitzvah. Every time they can do something, even something dishonest, to injure an "evil" person, the dishonesty being the presumably regrettable part, they get a little gold star in their "I did good, huh?" CommieBook.

"Evil" is defined as anyone who disagrees with them, of course.

Accusing a writer of wholesale stealing -- posting a mere C&P, is all these idiots can muster. Once you have accused a writer of that kind of stealing, there can be no recovery. Ever.

LT took me on and had the balls to admit that I don't do that.

I do research and join many ideas that I find into a concept that I then present. Were this a writing for money, there would be a bibliography, foot- or end- notes, etc.

But these mindless assholes don't take the time to read what I write -- they simply say, "NAUGHTY - you just stole that." That's one way, as LT pointed out quite some time back, you can tell that they are guys -- even the ones who post as females. They actually believe that a woman is not capable of presenting an intelligent point of view here. Girls are supposed to be dumb, you see, and they have no idea why they are so unlucky to be on their fourth or fifth unsuccessful marriage.

Funny thing, eh?

They're kids who should hang from piano wires.
 
False Analogy Fallacy

Those who agree with the OP that, "Fascism is a violent and non-humanistic sub-set of Socialism," resort to the false analogy fallacy:

---------

In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property P.
http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm

---------

Anyone who claims that there meaningful similarities between Nazism and Social Democracy lies knowingly, especially since, as I have proven with a quote from Mein Kampf, Hitler hated the Social Democratic Party.
 
Last edited:
For example in the 1930s, George Orwell (1984 and others) lamented that the struggle leaving so many dead and wounded is, essentially, between fascists and socialists since, at the end of the day (inside joke – disregard) “We are all the same.”

Please bear in mind that Orwell remained a socialist to the end of his life.

He was also very clear on the difference between socialism and fascism. From The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius (1941):

Socialism is usually defined as “common ownership of the means of production”. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does NOT mean that people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and furniture, but it DOES mean that all productive goods, such as land, mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State. The State is the sole large-scale producer. It is not certain that Socialism is in all ways superior to capitalism, but it is certain that, unlike capitalism, it can solve the problems of production and consumption. At normal times a capitalist economy can never consume all that it produces, so that there is always a wasted surplus (wheat burned in furnaces, herrings dumped back into the sea etc etc) and always unemployment. In time of war, on the other hand, it has difficulty in producing all that it needs, because nothing is produced unless someone sees his way to making a profit out of it. In a Socialist economy these problems do not exist. The State simply calculates what goods will be needed and does its best to produce them. Production is only limited by the amount of labour and raw materials. Money, for internal purposes, ceases to be a mysterious all-powerful thing and becomes a sort of coupon or ration-ticket, issued in sufficient quantities to buy up such consumption goods as may be available at the moment.

However, it has become clear in the last few years that “common ownership of the means of production” is not in itself a sufficient definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the reappearance of a class system. Centralised ownership has very little meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal level, and have some kind of control over the government. “The State” may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on money.

But what then is Fascism?

Fascism, at any rate the German version, is a form of capitalism that borrows from Socialism just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes. Internally, Germany has a good deal in common with a Socialist state. Ownership has never been abolished, there are still capitalists and workers, and—this is the important point, and the real reason why rich men all over the world tend to sympathise with Fascism—generally speaking the same people are capitalists and the same people workers as before the Nazi revolution. But at the same time the State, which is simply the Nazi Party, is in control of everything. It controls investment, raw materials, rates of interest, working hours, wages. The factory owner still owns his factory, but he is for practical purposes reduced to the status of a manager. Everyone is in effect a State employee, though the salaries vary very greatly. The mere EFFICIENCY of such a system, the elimination of waste and obstruction, is obvious. In seven years it has built up the most powerful war machine the world has ever seen.

But the idea underlying Fascism is irreconcilably different from that which underlies Socialism. Socialism aims, ultimately, at a world-state of free and equal human beings. It takes the equality of human rights for granted. Nazism assumes just the opposite. The driving force behind the Nazi movement is the belief in human INEQUALITY, the superiority of Germans to all other races, the right of Germany to rule the world. Outside the German Reich it does not recognise any obligations. Eminent Nazi professors have “proved” over and over again that only nordic man is fully human, have even mooted the idea that nonnordic peoples (such as ourselves) can interbreed with gorillas! Therefore, while a species of war-Socialism exists within the German state, its attitude towards conquered nations is frankly that of an exploiter. The function of the Czechs, Poles, French, etc is simply to produce such goods as Germany may need, and get in return just as little as will keep them from open rebellion. If we are conquered, our job will probably be to manufacture weapons for Hitler’s forthcoming wars with Russia and America. The Nazis aim, in effect, at setting up a kind of caste system, with four main castes corresponding rather closely to those of the Hindu religion. At the top comes the Nazi party, second come the mass of the German people, third come the conquered European populations. Fourth and last are to come the coloured peoples, the “semi-apes” as Hitler calls them, who are to be reduced quite openly to slavery.

However horrible this system may seem to us, IT WORKS. It works because it is a planned system geared to a definite purpose, world conquest, and not allowing any private interest, either of capitalist or worker, to stand in its way. British capitalism does not work, because it is a competitive system in which private profit is and must be the main objective. It is a system in which all the forces are pulling in opposite directions and the interests of the individual are as often as not totally opposed to those of the State.
 
has the daft bint put the quote marks in or is she still passing other's work off as her own?

If you want to claim that this is not original, why not show where it was derived from? There are search engines for just that purpose.
 
Back
Top