Where are all the women?

[ownedsubgal]

And its talked about like its a bad thing. But when women take on more traditionally masculine qualities its usually celebrated. This is something that I find personally insulting.

for me both sides are equally disturbing, at least within a heterosexual context. outside of the straight world, i still find it more logical and acceptable when there is a yin/yang, masculine/feminine, dom/sub, with no overlap, but i recognize that as much own personal hang-up.

 

[JMohegan]

Everyone's talking about the fringe who have hijacked the movement, they must have names, then, if they're such powerful forces. Whatever the "nuts" I'm supposed to be distancing myself from might espouse, it might help to catch some of their soundbites.

These public man-hating loud loonies who have hijacked the struggle to make a buck for the same work and maybe have more people concerned with making work and parenting work together better.

Or are those really not the people in charge of anything significant and more a scapegoat for a concept that still has a long way to go?

IME, the second anyone points out that having a dick wins you a lot of non-hassles, people tend to assume hostility and get nutty, rather than maybe considering the likelihood.

It also entails a lot of hassles, hence my point about feminism phaze 2.

Again, as I said in my post to ITW, my perspective on this starts "in the beginning......"

The face of feminism, to me, was always the people promoting feminism to my face. Guest lecturers, classmates, professional peers. I'm talking about the dialogue of my life.

I am far from alone in feeling that the most outspoken supporters of feminism, in the actual, day-to-day, society-altering debates, discussions, recriminations, and counter-recriminations that took place, were misandrists. Many men and women from my generation shared a similar view.

I am discussing the term, not the root concept of equality. How "feminism" got a bad name.

 

[Netzach]

Again, as I said in my post to ITW, my perspective on this starts "in the beginning......"

The face of feminism, to me, was always the people promoting feminism to my face. Guest lecturers, classmates, professional peers. I'm talking about the dialogue of my life.

I am far from alone in feeling that the most outspoken supporters of feminism, in the actual, day-to-day, society-altering debates, discussions, recriminations, and counter-recriminations that took place, were misandrists. Many men and women from my generation shared a similar view.

I am discussing the term, not the root concept of equality. How "feminism" got a bad name.

I think it's far too common for anger to be labeled hatred.

If everyone hated men they'd all just go land co-op separatist, no problem.

 

[JMohegan]

What does that even mean?

Do you mean the skin care thing? I think they're just being marketed to effectively en masse, my God, try a little Marxist analysis for breakfast.

No one but no one MADE my dude decide that hair south of the eyebrows is nasty nasty nasty. It's like the boy who opts for the doll. How is this a societal woe?

With regard to the "skin care thing," I'd say that being feminized means being encouraged to take on traditionally female insecurities.

Oh my god, a wrinkle! A minor flaw! *hands over cash for absurdly overpriced inanities*

I don't see this as a neutral trend, I see it as a negative. Given my preference, both genders would be moving in the opposite (i.e., *less* insecure) direction.


If you don't like the term "feminized," what would you call the guys in the ad below?

All that preening and posing and smooth girly skin sure doesn't look masculine to me (muscles notwithstanding).



http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/HIM.jpg

 

[JMohegan]

I think it's far too common for anger to be labeled hatred.

This is a fair point, I agree.

 

[Netzach]

With regard to the "skin care thing," I'd say that being feminized means being encouraged to take on traditionally female insecurities.

Oh my god, a wrinkle! A minor flaw! *hands over cash for absurdly overpriced inanities*

I don't see this as a neutral trend, I see it as a negative. Given my preference, both genders would be moving in the opposite (i.e., *less* insecure) direction.


If you don't like the term "feminized," what would you call the guys in the ad below?

All that preening and posing and smooth girly skin sure doesn't look masculine to me (muscles notwithstanding).



http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/HIM.jpg

I don't think I'd be insecure about my wrinkles in a less capitalist and less consumer oriented culture, honestly. Do you think a bunch of women got together to worry about fat and wrinkles in the fifties or something? Some beauty insanity has always been pushed on us, but I don't think the first-gen immigrants were buying in like we are today, something's different.

Is femininity reduced to "you have pretty skin?"

All I see is the lens being used the way it is on women. These men are objectified, pleasureable to look at. Pretty.

I also could work out for a million hours and we both know I'll never be ripped like
that. You can't say "muscles notwithstanding" when boys are now killing themselves with excercise addictions and anorexia.

I don't see them as feminized, so much as subject to the same sterile lens treatment as women, that classical flawless plasticity. Like rubber Greek sculpture.

I don't think it's feminization, it's non-naturalism. I'm not saying it's neutral or positive either.

 

[00Syd]

With regard to the "skin care thing," I'd say that being feminized means being encouraged to take on traditionally female insecurities.

Oh my god, a wrinkle! A minor flaw! *hands over cash for absurdly overpriced inanities*

I don't see this as a neutral trend, I see it as a negative. Given my preference, both genders would be moving in the opposite (i.e., *less* insecure) direction.


If you don't like the term "feminized," what would you call the guys in the ad below?

All that preening and posing and smooth girly skin sure doesn't look masculine to me (muscles notwithstanding).



http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/HIM.jpg

I wouldn't call him feminine, but maybe I would call him clean. He does look very clean.

And what does "girly skin" mean? Clean skin? Smooth skin? Those aren't bad things too me.

 

[ownedsubgal]

JMohegan, that ad is pretty disturbing i must admit. himistry...what the flock?! lol

while i do think it's important that men take care of themselves, groom, be mindful of their appearance, etc...it shouldn't come anywhere close to crossing that line between masculine and feminine. now, my Master has been known to spend up to 45 minutes in front of the mirror shaving and trimming his beard/goatee just so. there is a particular shape he feels is right for him, and it must. be. perfect! in the spring and summer, he wears a facial moisturizer with sunscreen. yet, the man refuses to use shave gel or cream, because he finds it girlie and unnecessary. eh, what can ya do.

 

[00Syd]

I don't see them as feminized, so much as subject to the same sterile lens treatment as women, that classical flawless, plasticity.

I don't think it's feminization, it's non-naturalism. I'm not saying it's neutral or positive either.

Now, that is a really good way to put it.

Its like, men are being put through the same wringer that women have been put through and that makes them feminine. No, it just makes them as susceptible to marketing as women, and that has nothing to do with femininity (unless its feminine to be weak-willed, and I know that someone will say this, so I'm just beating them to it).

 

[Netzach]

This is a fair point, I agree.

Any amount of anger I experience at inequalities now would probably go supernova if you put me back about 40 years. Can you imagine?

 

[JMohegan]

I wouldn't call him feminine, but maybe I would call him clean. He does look very clean.

And what does "girly skin" mean? Clean skin? Smooth skin? Those aren't bad things too me.

Most adult males have hair on their torsos. Even a guy of Scandinavian descent, like me, has a combination smattering + trail.

Hairless chest = girly chest, to me.

I don't think I'd be insecure about my wrinkles in a less capitalist and less consumer oriented culture, honestly. Do you think a bunch of women got together to worry about fat and wrinkles in the fifties or something? Some beauty insanity has always been pushed on us, but I don't think the first-gen immigrants were buying in like we are today, something's different.

Is femininity reduced to "you have pretty skin?"

All I see is the lens being used the way it is on women. These men are objectified, pleasureable to look at. Pretty.

I also could work out for a million hours and we both know I'll never be ripped like
that. You can't say "muscles notwithstanding" when boys are now killing themselves with excercise addictions and anorexia.

I don't see them as feminized, so much as subject to the same sterile lens treatment as women, that classical flawless plasticity. Like rubber Greek sculpture.

I don't think it's feminization, it's non-naturalism. I'm not saying it's neutral or positive either.

Okay, commercialized, prettified, objectified, and non-naturalized I'll buy.

 

[Netzach]

I've always been partial to Marxist analysis over Feminist analysis. I don't see the topsy turvy that osg and others find distrubing as the cause of dysfunction and chaos, but a gauge of it. I don't think we're trading up when we're trading in old school patriarchy for this forced consumerist genderfuck, and I'm a proponent of genderfuck and whatever in my *own life*

I'm just very leery of proscriptions versus options.

 

[Netzach]

Most adult males have hair on their torsos. Even a guy of Scandinavian descent, like me, has a combination smattering + trail.

Of no relevance, but I'm screwing Ursus Norveigicus. Yum.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Most adult males have hair on their torsos. Even a guy of Scandinavian descent, like me, has a combination smattering + trail.

Hairless chest = girly chest, to me.

maybe you don't hang around a lot of topless guys (giggles), but many very masculine, manly men have no visible chest hair (or any hair beyond pits and pubes), particularly men of african descent. so smooth chest does not necessarily equate to girlie for me....MANUFACTURED smooth chest, does. outside the world of professional swimming, a straight guy shouldn't be comfortable waxing and shaving his body hair. nowadays a shockingly large number of them are.

 

[Homburg]

I'm queer. Got a dog in the hunt or three.

Is the sissy/queer continuum in need of explanation?

Eh, only if you assume that my definition of manly is solely wrenches, axle grease, and misogyny. I have made very pointed examples of cross-dressers, slaves, and gay men that I consider very manly.

I totally get the loathing of incompetence thing, I feel the same way about men and women. How one defines incompetence is subjective. BiBunny's definition and mine could not be more different.

It is less a loathing purely of incompetence, and more the manner in which that incompetence is expressed. I'm largely thumbs when it comes to carpentry, but I don't lose it when faced with it.

But the special loathing and recasting of male incompetence as inherently feminine is really interesting. Like testosterone increases your competence magically?

This has been covered by myself and Keroin in regards to our respective posts. Not-manly generally refers to boyish. Feminine is a different concept. There is some feminising going on, but it is a somewhat different area. More marketing than behaviour.

 

[Netzach]

Eh, only if you assume that my definition of manly is solely wrenches, axle grease, and misogyny. I have made very pointed examples of cross-dressers, slaves, and gay men that I consider very manly.

Right. I got that. And I think you'll see how I feel about the role of marketing and consumerism in this in the rest of this thread.

But at the back of my mind in these discussions is "so what if he's the flaming freakingest flaming queen on earth?"

Some of the toughest, fiercest, and most admirable people I know fit that bill. Because honey, ain't no one cheering you on but you.

This always = bad. Why aren't there threads crying about the existence of butch women, or scary-ass butch straight cowgirls?

 

[JMohegan]

Any amount of anger I experience at inequalities now would probably go supernova if you put me back about 40 years. Can you imagine?

Yes and no.

That is, I can imagine why you would be super angry and frustrated. But I'm so used to a respectful exchange of ideas with you now, that I'm having trouble imagining that not happening.

Besides, you always seem to get me. Usually, anyway, or at least more often than most. It's hard for me to imagine you telling me that my voice has no value, any attempt at mutual understanding would be pointless, and I should just shut the fuck up.

 

[Homburg]

Right. I got that. And I think you'll see how I feel about the role of marketing and consumerism in this in the rest of this thread.

But at the back of my mind in these discussions is "so what if he's the flaming freakingest flaming queen on earth?"

Some of the toughest, fiercest, and most admirable people I know fit that bill. Because honey, ain't no one cheering you on but you.

This always = bad. Why aren't there threads crying about the existence of butch women, or scary-ass butch straight cowgirls?

Because the people that should likely be bothered by it here, aren't.

How many times have we seen women complaining because a given male is not quite man enough for her taste? It is not exactly uncommon, and usually refers to their partner more often than not. Why these women are with those partners in the first place, I dunno. You rarely see a guy griping that his wife/girlfriend is too butch because most guys that would be bothered by it just won't go for that in the first place.

Honestly, it may be because the males being griped about acted more manly during courtship, and presented a false image. *shrug* The butch cowgirl isn't as likely to do that maybe? I dunno, not my area. The butch women I've known were pretty up front about how they were.

You have a large number of submissive women on this board. They generally want a manly alpha dude as their partner. If they lack a partner, and can't find that alpha guy, they might complain. Likewise, if they have one, and he's not alpha, they may complain too. Thus we see more potential comments against non-manly men due to the demographics of the boards.

 

[Netzach]

Because the people that should likely be bothered by it here, aren't.

How many times have we seen women complaining because a given male is not quite man enough for her taste? It is not exactly uncommon, and usually refers to their partner more often than not. Why these women are with those partners in the first place, I dunno. You rarely see a guy griping that his wife/girlfriend is too butch because most guys that would be bothered by it just won't go for that in the first place.

Honestly, it may be because the males being griped about acted more manly during courtship, and presented a false image. *shrug* The butch cowgirl isn't as likely to do that maybe? I dunno, not my area. The butch women I've known were pretty up front about how they were.

You have a large number of submissive women on this board. They generally want a manly alpha dude as their partner. If they lack a partner, and can't find that alpha guy, they might complain. Likewise, if they have one, and he's not alpha, they may complain too. Thus we see more potential comments against non-manly men due to the demographics of the boards.

I dunno. I'm having trouble buying that it's our pervy distribution entirely. I've seen the same accusations fly in Femdom all the time, the hairy manly man bottom is at a premium.

 

[00Syd]

Its true, domly alpha-male types who want submissive partners don't seem to complain that women just aren't lady-like enough anymore. Maybe thats because the domly alph-male types are manly and it isn't manly to complain about that sort of thing? And that's why the sub girls like them? And its feminine to complain...? And so the very faminine sub girls complain because its girly to and thats why the dom guys like them...?

So many gender expectations, my head is spinning.

 

[satindesire]

This always = bad. Why aren't there threads crying about the existence of butch women, or scary-ass butch straight cowgirls?

Because by and large, people are generally more tolerant of a masculine woman than they are of a feminine man.

To society as a whole, it's a greater sin to give up femininity and put on masculinity than it is the other way around. Masculinity is still considered greater than.

 

[00Syd]

Because by and large, people are generally more tolerant of a masculine woman than they are of a feminine man.

Right. And that is fucked.

 

[JMohegan]

maybe you don't hang around a lot of topless guys (giggles), but many very masculine, manly men have no visible chest hair (or any hair beyond pits and pubes), particularly men of african descent. so smooth chest does not necessarily equate to girlie for me....MANUFACTURED smooth chest, does. outside the world of professional swimming, a straight guy shouldn't be comfortable waxing and shaving his body hair. nowadays a shockingly large number of them are.

I'm with you on the "shocking" bit. I find the waxing and shaving of chest hair to be truly bizarre.

Over the course of my life, I've actually spent a ridiculous amount of time in the company of nude males, including some African Americans. (Lifelong athletic pursuits = many hours spent in locker rooms. )

I just checked Wiki, and you're right - there's an ethnic disparity.

"A study of 1100 men aged 17 to 71 defined and documented ten patterns of chest hair in Caucasoid men. In this study 6 percent of the men were found to have no chest hair."

"The same study documented the chest hair patterns of 60 African-American men aged 20-40. For these men 22 percent were found to have no chest hair."

 

[Netzach]

Yes and no.

That is, I can imagine why you would be super angry and frustrated. But I'm so used to a respectful exchange of ideas with you now, that I'm having trouble imagining that not happening.

Besides, you always seem to get me. Usually, anyway, or at least more often than most. It's hard for me to imagine you telling me that my voice has no value, any attempt at mutual understanding would be pointless, and I should just shut the fuck up.

Totally not my style, I dig.

I can see, however, telling the nearest person next to me with a penis to sit down and shut the fuck up if I'm finally being asked how I feel after 5 years of being the office decoration and coffee maker - a common career path at that point, and I'm being dismissed in some fashion.

 

[Netzach]

Because by and large, people are generally more tolerant of a masculine woman than they are of a feminine man.

To society as a whole, it's a greater sin to give up femininity and put on masculinity than it is the other way around. Masculinity is still considered greater than.

For the win.