Article: The Healthy Female Submissive

[Netzach]

Yes, of course I've met these people. I went to college & grad school with some of these people. Didn't you?

Here's a synopsis of their message (without the profanity and shrieking):

"You (person with a cock) are an active participant in a system that deliberately oppresses women, whether you admit it or not. Your cock gives you privilege, and that privilege blinds you and renders you incapable of ethical behavior or reasonable thought."

No room for conversation or question or constructive debate. No effort to distinguish between various types of men. Just a blanket dismissal of cock as evil, the end.

So sorry. I don't buy it. I'm willing to listen to you, but only if you listen right back. I'm willing to acknowledge that I harbor ill-founded prejudices, but only if you'll do the same.

And you can swear and shriek all you want to, but if your message is ultimately that I can't possibly change, then frankly I really don't see the point.

I'm trying to think if I did go to school with these people, I don't think I did, really. I more closely remember being confronted with the idea that my white skin does the same. Rather than get offended at the woman who pointed this out I had to think about it and admit she was right. The only way I'm even going to approach being an ally of some sort to people who don't share that privilege is by believing what they have to say about their own lives, even, no, especially - when the experiences seem hard for me to believe or extremely unfamiliar. Also realizing that those experiences aren't going to add up to some monolithic "Black experience" that anyone could even get their head around.

We later bonded over the fact that we were both non-Christian, her Muslim, me Jewish.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm trying to think if I did go to school with these people, I don't think I did, really. I more closely remember being confronted with the idea that my white skin does the same. Rather than get offended at the woman who pointed this out I had to think about it and admit she was right.

We later bonded over the fact that we were both non-Christian, her Muslim, me Jewish.

Isn't that...you know, racist and bigoted? Bonding's cool though.

 

[Netzach]

Isn't that...you know, racist and bigoted? Bonding's cool though.

I don't think it is when you are in a town of "what church do you go to?" I think it's called remaining sane. I wish the rest of our respective peeps would realize that we've got more in common than not.

 

[Recidiva]

I don't think it is when you are in a town of "what church do you go to?"

I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

I came from a white, Christian background, but I grew up embracing lots of different things. And I don't consider my family inherently evil. Okay - some of them are, but since others aren't, I just consider it a human condition thingy.

And me being curious and stubborn.

Hell, I've gotten the most crap in my life from being involved with the Church of Scientology and defending some of their tenets. You should see me play "What Church do you go to."

But then I know the Bible, Tao Te Ching, Bhaghavad Gita and Koran pretty well too. I didn't always hang out with just the pagan feminists.

 

[Recidiva]

I think it's called remaining sane. I wish the rest of our respective peeps would realize that we've got more in common than not.

Then you made out better than many of the White Christians. Good.

It's not all peaches and roses in there. Maybe being inside that taught me that the grass is not greener under the pews.

 

[JMohegan]

Two obvious signs that men need a liberation movement:

"Tool Time" - Now, I love Tim Allen, but I couldn't bear at all his dumbassery while his wife was ultimately the greatest repository of patience and wisdom. Oh come on...really? If a show existed with a female Tim Allen...being constantly berated for being stupid by her husband...it'd have been off the air in a week and a half. But a dumb man? Money.

I went shopping one week and saw an ad for some sort of pre-cooked meal. The motto? "So Simple Even A Man Can Do It." What Ad agency in their right mind would have swapped out the word "Woman" in that?

Never seen it, but that show does sound bad.

I'm not one who's ever developed much interest in cooking beyond the basics. Perhaps for this reason, my response to the ad is a mildly self-deprecating chuckle.

 

[Recidiva]

Never seen it, but that show does sound bad.

I'm not one who's ever developed much interest in cooking beyond the basics. Perhaps for this reason, my response to the ad is a mildly self-deprecating chuckle.

That's your brainwashed response to the matriarchy! Don't be self deprecating, dammit! Get mad! Fight back! Start an infuriated letter campaign to the agency! Boycott!

Anyway, that's what part of me said inside, then I heaved a deep sigh, wished men would get off their ass so I wouldn't have to feel insulted on their behalf, and then went and got my groceries, avoiding that cart in the future.

I'm a pragmatist.

 

[Netzach]

I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

I came from a white, Christian background, but I grew up embracing lots of different things. And I don't consider my family inherently evil. Okay - some of them are, but since others aren't, I just consider it a human condition thingy.

And me being curious and stubborn.

Hell, I've gotten the most crap in my life from being involved with the Church of Scientology and defending some of their tenets. You should see me play "What Church do you go to."

But then I know the Bible, Tao Te Ching, Bhaghavad Gita and Koran pretty well too. I didn't always hang out with just the pagan feminists.

How did we get on to evil?

I'd have moved back to NYC if it was that big a deal to me.

It's simply a touch of recognition that someone else is sharing an experience with me for different reasons. I guess we could have gone on feeling uncomfortable around one another after that confrontation.

I witnessed another Jewish student have her head checked for horns. No, really.

I had my "cracker" in april made fun of.

Those things are racist and bigoted. Finding comfort in some small commonality with someone else isn't going to feed anyone to a lion.

I realize that I was a lot of people's "first Jew" so I didn't leave or hate them for it. But you know, that entitled to complain thing?

I don't think I need to apologize.

 

[Recidiva]

How did we get on to evil?

I'd have moved back to NYC if it was that big a deal to me.

It's simply a touch of recognition that someone else is sharing an experience with me for different reasons. I guess we could have gone on feeling uncomfortable around one another after that confrontation.

I witnessed another Jewish student have her head checked for horns. No, really.

I had my "cracker" in april made fun of.

I realize that I was a lot of people's "first Jew" so I didn't leave or hate them for it. But you know, that entitled to complain thing?

I don't think I need to apologize.

Complaint is fine.

I'm only questioning the extent to which you acknowledged that being white inherently made you evil.

Are you talking 7% evil or 87% evil?

Was a calculator introduced and variables? Cause that'd be interesting.

Evil came in as an extension of JMohegan's objection to the idea that being something inherently made you something else.

See, in my universe, nothing about white skin makes you inherently (backs up to the original quote to avoid confusion of terms) "Just a blanket dismissal of cock as evil, the end."

In this case extending it to white skin: "Just a blanket dismissal of white as evil, the end."

 

[JMohegan]

I'm trying to think if I did go to school with these people, I don't think I did, really. I more closely remember being confronted with the idea that my white skin does the same. Rather than get offended at the woman who pointed this out I had to think about it and admit she was right. The only way I'm even going to approach being an ally of some sort to people who don't share that privilege is by believing what they have to say about their own lives, even, no, especially - when the experiences seem hard for me to believe or extremely unfamiliar. Also realizing that those experiences aren't going to add up to some monolithic "Black experience" that anyone could even get their head around.

We later bonded over the fact that we were both non-Christian, her Muslim, me Jewish.

I don't think it's a question of getting offended so much as it is the impression that someone who puts all males in the same evil box is irrational. As I said before, that's just nuts.

I accept the idea that I'm never gonna know what it's like to walk around female. I agree with your earlier comment, that when a bunch of intelligent, rational women say society feels a certain way, then a reasonable guy should listen.

 

[JMohegan]

That's your brainwashed response to the matriarchy! Don't be self deprecating, dammit! Get mad! Fight back! Start an infuriated letter campaign to the agency! Boycott!

Anyway, that's what part of me said inside, then I heaved a deep sigh, wished men would get off their ass so I wouldn't have to feel insulted on their behalf, and then went and got my groceries, avoiding that cart in the future.

I'm a pragmatist.

Haha, okay. I'll think about it.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think it's a question of getting offended so much as it is the impression that someone who puts all males in the same evil box is irrational. As I said before, that's just nuts.

I accept the idea that I'm never gonna know what it's like to walk around female. I agree with your earlier comment, that when a bunch of intelligent, rational women say society feels a certain way, then a reasonable guy should listen.

I don't blame people of color for assuming the worst of me one bit. I hope to defy the expectations some of the time, and I work on that. That's the best I can offer.

 

[Recidiva]

Haha, okay. I'll think about it.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to better ads and programming due to your efforts. I'm indebted.

 

[Recidiva]

I don't blame people of color for assuming the worst of me one bit. I hope to defy the expectations some of the time, and I work on that. That's the best I can offer.

Oh. See, I do. I consider that racism. If I'm not supposed to judge anybody according to their skin color, why is it okay if they do it to me? It's universally a stupid thing to do.

 

[Netzach]

Oh. See, I do. I consider that racism. If I'm not supposed to judge anybody according to their skin color, why is it okay if they do it to me?

Saying "you can't understand what it's like to have my experience in this skin color, so when I say this is how it is for me, maybe you don't actually know and need to listen" isn't a judgement and isn't racist.

I was on a liberal whining streak of "why won't they come to our meeetings" at the moment.

I think this notion that we can encounter every individual we meet without regard to prior experience, pattern, or anything whatsoever isn't remotely realistic, we're constantly sizing one another up, judging, and assuming. The degree to which our assumptions are defied by one another is where things improve. And dialogue is more important to me than trying to squash the assumptive impulse. I'd rather be forced to weigh whether or not I may actually suck in some way I've been trained to suck, even if it's not the most comfortable feeling.

Maybe this is a New Yorker thing. In NYC you will hear people call one another every name in the book, say every fucked up thing about each other, but all the while learn about each other in a way that you can't when you can't challenge one another or talk about the taboos. As a diverse experiment, it's one of the longest successes in History. We don't especially like each other per se but we share this very strong identity as a city.

 

[Recidiva]

Saying "you can't understand what it's like to have my experience in this skin color, so when I say this is how it is for me, maybe you don't actually know and need to listen" isn't a judgement and isn't racist.

I was on a liberal whining streak of "why won't they come to out meeetings" at the moment.

Yeah, but they can't understand what it's like to be me either, nor do they care. They think they already know. Which they don't. It's sad.

I'll come to meetings. I will. But it's for the company, not the cause. I'm fickle that way.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think my life story is an open book, or easy-peasy perfect.

But it's safe to say I don't get followed around stores when I go in.
It's safe to say I don't get pulled over for being in the wrong area.
It's safe to say my name isn't throwing me to the bottom of the resume slush pile.
It's safe to say there's no quota on how many people like me are admitted to technical colleges because white students are complaining.
It's safe to say no one's touching my hair all the time.
This list can get very long.

 

[Recidiva]

I think this notion that we can encounter every individual we meet without regard to prior experience, pattern, or anything whatsoever isn't remotely realistic, we're constantly sizing one another up, judging, and assuming. The degree to which our assumptions are defied by one another is where things improve. And dialogue is more important to me than trying to squash the assumptive impulse. I'd rather be forced to weigh whether or not I may actually suck in some way I've been trained to suck, even if it's not the most comfortable feeling.

Maybe this is a New Yorker thing. In NYC you will hear people call one another every name in the book, say every fucked up thing about each other, but all the while learn about each other in a way that you can't when you can't challenge one another or talk about the taboos. As a diverse experiment, it's one of the longest successes in History. We don't especially like each other per se but we share this very strong identity as a city.

I grew up around Northern NJ/NYC and went to NYU.

I make few assumptions and respect those who take the time to learn before they teach. I certainly make no assumptions regarding skin.

If I suck, I do so honestly, and I have a right to suck, as no human being is perfect and I'm just a concatenation of what I tried best to do, but I'm human, so I'm gonna suck. So's everyone else. The diversity comes in all sucking in different unique ways.

The hatred I encounter is rare and I usually make fun of it and providing me with humor opportunities is its main contribution to my life as I rarely work/associate with people prone to hatred.

 

[rinka]

Glad for the opportunity to clarify. Again, as I said many times, I don't really hold the institution of feminism responsible. But there are those who take the ugliest possibilities to the extreme, and unfortunately, those who would otherwise be sane and argue with them, are afraid to, because it would look like a betrayal. A lot of ugliness takes place under cover of "this is a safe space, nobody will argue with you here." That much safety and acceptance can actually breed a lot of nasty when nobody will say boo.

Keep in mind I've explored this sorta thing to the ultimate extreme, including women's retreats where men aren't allowed on the grounds for two weeks while women create in their own energy. I've been to a lot of that, wiccan, lesbian vibe. Some amazing role models that I've encountered that I've tried to emulate. And some songs, prayers, proposed spells, wishes or creative writing that contain such bile and hatred they're etched in my brain and I'll never be able to get them out.

What I consider to be the biggest loss is all that information about being a good mother...devalued and discounted and all that traditional information...wiped out in a few generations. People not listening and so much lost. That actually makes me really sad and rather angry.

I share your sense of irony. I really don't think I have to beat 'em or join 'em. But it's sad how many feminists think they have to become a man to beat a man. I don't want to be a man. I'd rather just join 'em for drinks and leave it at that.

Sometimes you may need to take things to the extreme to find something. To be able to see or deal with a certain detail in the big picture. I've never gone to anything remotely wickan, but plenty separatist meetings and gatherings. Sometimes I've really smiled at how narrow the issues can get, but often it makes me happy.

Once at a demonstration I got a note about a weekend course to discuss gender opression within the animal rights movement which kind of stood out like that. At first I made a lot of fun of it, but then I saw it in a different light when I imagined a bunch of teenage girls with burning engagement get together for this purpose. How they would talk about how they sometimes don't feel that they're being heard when their group is planning to free some minks or similar action. Because that discussion and what they learn will spill over into other areas.

We don't expect men to talk about fatherhood at the cigarclub. Noone is responsible for every issue everytime. And sometimes it's really healthy to be pissed off. As long as you don't get stuck there.

 

[rinka]

Yes, of course I've met these people. I went to college & grad school with some of these people. Didn't you?

Here's a synopsis of their message (without the profanity and shrieking):

"You (person with a cock) are an active participant in a system that deliberately oppresses women, whether you admit it or not. Your cock gives you privilege, and that privilege blinds you and renders you incapable of ethical behavior or reasonable thought."

No room for conversation or question or constructive debate. No effort to distinguish between various types of men. Just a blanket dismissal of cock as evil, the end.

So sorry. I don't buy it. I'm willing to listen to you, but only if you listen right back. I'm willing to acknowledge that I harbor ill-founded prejudices, but only if you'll do the same.

And you can swear and shriek all you want to, but if your message is ultimately that I can't possibly change, then frankly I really don't see the point.

Men as group, with cocks, are privileged in comparison to women as group.

Men generally dislike to be seen as a collective.
Women are used to it....

Saying "you can't understand what it's like to have my experience in this skin color, so when I say this is how it is for me, maybe you don't actually know and need to listen" isn't a judgement and isn't racist.

I think this is where it gets most interesting, when you start to look at intersectionalism. What makes up our identity? Gender, ethnicity, religion, class, education, sexuality, health, income, family-structure....

One of the most visual and effective images I've seen of this is the privilege walk-exercise. Everyone starts out on a line and then you look at these different aspects of life. Man one step forward, hearing impaired one step back, immigrant back, hetero forward and so on. ..

You can't really see the ones behind you, but you sure see the backs of those ahead.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't blame people of color for assuming the worst of me one bit. I hope to defy the expectations some of the time, and I work on that. That's the best I can offer.

I guess that depends on how you define "the worst." If someone can't tell the difference between you and a white supremacist in short order, then they're either being deliberately obtuse or taking a stand that I find irrational and pointless.

But you're changing the subject.

There's a difference between racial wariness and open hostility. Just as there's a difference between gender wariness and the tirades I've already mentioned.

I may understand the root of someone's frustration and rage from a general societal perspective, but that doesn't mean I'll stick around and be their punching bag.

 

[Netzach]

I guess that depends on how you define "the worst." If someone can't tell the difference between you and a white supremacist in short order, then they're either being deliberately obtuse or taking a stand that I find irrational and pointless.

But you're changing the subject.

There's a difference between racial wariness and open hostility. Just as there's a difference between gender wariness and the tirades I've already mentioned.

I may understand the root of someone's frustration and rage from a general societal perspective, but that doesn't mean I'll stick around and be their punching bag.

OK, that's fair. I didn't see anyone confrontational to men, baseline, in class, as you are talking about. Zero.

No one that simplistic - man or white person = devil kind of reduction. If anything the question of fragmentation complexity and hybrid identities was where it's at, man. Who is and isn't black, or female, or anything, and who decides? The things which seemed so obvious 20 years ago are less obvious than ever.

I didn't take a lot of womens' studies, though, I was a queer media kinda gal. Being a hetero-passing white girl is a lot easier than being a flaming fag of any stripe most days of the week in a lot of respects. It's not a contest or anything. People were urged to consider in what ways they have and do not have social power handed to them and what that power is and how it changes in context.

The other half of this idea is to lend legitimacy, listening, and respect to prior marginalized POV's, rather than dismissing them because they don't mesh with the reality of middle class white men, because they enhance our sense of reality - because they enrich us. Not just because we feel bad about all the horrible things that have happened to X demographic. The more sides to the elephant we're seriously taking into consideration the more accurate picture.

If feminist theory has changed the world, the world has also changed feminist theory quite a lot, more, in fact. I don't think you're going to find the same POV as you would in the seventies and early 80's.

 

[JMohegan]

Men as group, with cocks, are privileged in comparison to women as group.

Men generally dislike to be seen as a collective.
Women are used to it....

I don't have a problem acknowledging that men, as a group, are privileged - or even that I, as an individual white male, am privileged. I get that.

But if you've got a proposal for something, and you want my voice or my legwork or vote, then you're gonna have to stop screaming about what an irreparably flawed asshole prick I am, and start with some actual talk.

 

[JMohegan]

OK, that's fair. I didn't see anyone confrontational to men, baseline, in class, as you are talking about. Zero.

No one that simplistic - man or white person = devil kind of reduction. If anything the question of fragmentation complexity and hybrid identities was where it's at, man. Who is and isn't black, or female, or anything, and who decides? The things which seemed so obvious 20 years ago are less obvious than ever.

I didn't take a lot of womens' studies, though, I was a queer media kinda gal. Being a hetero-passing white girl is a lot easier than being a flaming fag of any stripe most days of the week in a lot of respects. It's not a contest or anything. People were urged to consider in what ways they have and do not have social power handed to them and what that power is and how it changes in context.

The other half of this idea is to lend legitimacy, listening, and respect to prior marginalized POV's, rather than dismissing them because they don't mesh with the reality of middle class white men, because they enhance our sense of reality - because they enrich us. Not just because we feel bad about all the horrible things that have happened to X demographic. The more sides to the elephant we're seriously taking into consideration the more accurate picture.

If feminist theory has changed the world, the world has also changed feminist theory quite a lot, more, in fact. I don't think you're going to find the same POV as you would in the seventies and early 80's.

This could definitely be a generational thing.

Think campus activists who were trying to be like the Malcolm X of the Women's movement, or something.

 

[Netzach]

This could definitely be a generational thing.

Think campus activists who were trying to be like the Malcolm X of the Women's movement, or something.

I think you need a Malcolm AND a Martin in liberations. It's not where you want to stagnate, but I think being genuinely pissed off enough to throw things is something you don't want to completely lose touch with.