women who don't fit those molds; new paradigms (civil, please)

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't know. I always knew I was an outsider and I accepted it. When I heard generalities about men, I accepted them if they seemed true and just figured I was an exception. I never came across anything that described the kind of man I was, but it never bothered me much. I just figured I was different.

What's the big deal with seeking external confirmation for your identity anyhow? Who needs role models?

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

Interesting thread and thanks to the OP for starting it. I used to have a lot to say about this subject back in my graduate school days when I got a lot more hot around the collar about such things than I do now. In fact, I wrote a whole thesis on the subject of gender norming in Victorian literature. I guess in some ways that thesis helped me to exorcise my feelings about the issue. The whole purpose of my thesis was to express the notion that women were not just the cardboard constructions of men, nor were they devils in blue dresses but rather capable of gradations of character. That's still my viewpoint, and I don't hold a lot of store in categories now and never really have.

I'm now more interested in anthropological issues as they relate to the past and present lives of all humanoids. And, sometimes, I'm only interested in watching the bluebird take food to his wife and children in the bluebird house. Either way, I'm happy with my world view.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

What's the big deal with seeking external confirmation for your identity anyhow? Who needs role models?

Children.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Agreed

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

STELLA

I'm wading thru a complex treatise about masculinity. The author examines the subject in detail, from a large sample of opinions...ancient and modern.

How you cope with spiders seems to be the line of demarckation separating masculine and feminine. There are fence straddlers with regards to spiders. There is no middle ground. Feminine people do not cope well with spiders. Masculine people do.

Masculine people feel disdain for feminine people. No masculine person yearns to do what feminine people do, or be who feminine people are. So masculine people are chauvinists, and you cant change their minds, because the attitudes are wired at the factory. Masculine people like cotton fabric, but who in hell wants to pick cotton to make cotton fabric! Or clean toilets to ensure a sanitary restroom! Or change diapers (feminine people like the aroma of baby shit...another good indicator of where you fall vis-a-vis masuline/feminine).

Some females are very masculine: Margaret Thatcher, Queen Elizabeth I.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Question: How does this hetero usage differ from the old usage of tomboy?

Tomboy is not often a self-chosen nomer (Maybe that's it? A label you own vs a label that was forced upon you?), but in essence, it seems to describe the same type of person, pretty much.

Tomboys were always described as tree-climbers, fighters, ball-players-- I knew girls who did all of that but I didn't. I sometimes wished I were more atheletic because then the one label that even came close-- would have fit a little better.

I don't know. I always knew I was an outsider and I accepted it. When I heard generalities about men, I accepted them if they seemed true and just figured I was an exception. I never came across anything that described the kind of man I was, but it never bothered me much. I just figured I was different.

What's the big deal with seeking external confirmation for your identity anyhow? Who needs role models?

Like you, Doc, I mostly accepted the notion that I was kinda off when it came to the norms. But once in a while-- like, say, when two discussions rages for four days over the definitions of words that define roles-- the thought occurs to me.

Children.

Yes. And teens, and adults.

And once again, the point is not whether or not we need roles, but whether or not there are roles that fit some of us.

AND-- the point-- is not that individuals need roles, but that society wants us to have roles. And that the choices are limited. I'm quite sure you would have seen me wearing a scold's bridle, back in the day.

Even if we aren't looking back two hundred years, I can see the damage that limits have done; my mother would have been a forceful, effective person, if she hadn't had her opinionated personality beaten out of her. Her brother, my uncle is the same person, in many ways, minus the keep-your-mouth-shut training.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'll Pass

 

[Safe_Bet]

I'll Pass

xxxxxxxx

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

If I had lived during the 19th century, I would have worn one of those beautiful corsets and a fine gown made of silk in a teal color. Inside, I would have been burning with lust and fascinated by all things erotic. And, somehow, oddly, I would have delighted in the juxtaposition of it all.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If I had lived during the 19th century, I would have worn one of those beautiful corsets and a fine gown made of silk in a teal color. Inside, I would have been burning with lust and fascinated by all things erotic. And, somehow, oddly, I would have delighted in the juxtaposition of it all.

No birth control.

No prophylactics.

At least by that time, some women had some say in which man married them...

You wouldn't have had teal silk, by the way, until the later half of the century, when Aniline dyes came into being...

And safe_bet, might i request that you edit your comment? I asked that we not indulge in gender-based attacks-- even in jest-- here, please?

 

[cloudy]

No birth control.

No prophylactics.

At least by that time, some women had some say in which man married them...

You wouldn't have had teal silk, by the way, until the later half of the century, when Aniline dyes came into being...

I would've been in heaven: lots of long-haird bronze men around.

*drool*

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

STELLA Ah! Sexuality as fashion.

The core fact of sexuality is: Masculinity never changes while femininity is a slave to fashion.

 

[cloudy]

STELLA Ah! Sexuality as fashion.

The core fact of sexuality is: Masculinity never changes while femininity is a slave to fashion.

*snort*

Shows how much you know.

 

[Stella_Omega]

*snort*

Shows how much you know.

please don't pick up the monkey poo.

 

[cloudy]

please don't pick up the monkey poo.

sorry, won't do it again. As it is, my arms are full of sleepy pitbull puppy at the mo

 

[voluptuary_manque]

No birth control.

No prophylactics.

At least by that time, some women had some say in which man married them...

You wouldn't have had teal silk, by the way, until the later half of the century, when Aniline dyes came into being...

I beg to differ. By the latter half of the century when aniline dyes were available, both prophylactics (made, admittedly, from sheep's intestine like sausage skins) and birth control (inserted sponge pieces) were too available. They might have been officially illegal but that didn't stop people from using them.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I beg to differ. By the latter half of the century when aniline dyes were available, both prophylactics (made, admittedly, from sheep's intestine like sausage skins) and birth control (inserted sponge pieces) were too available. They might have been officially illegal but that didn't stop people from using them.

So, if Lesbiaphrodite had been a lady in the latter half of the 19th century, she could have had the appurtenances she needed-- but she'd have been living in a society that by that time, was putting curtains around piano legs to hide them from prurient view.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

So, if Lesbiaphrodite had been a lady in the latter half of the 19th century, she could have had the appurtenances she needed-- but she'd have been living in a society that by that time, was putting curtains around piano legs to hide them from prurient view.

But very hypocritically so. The Victorians had a higher whore/repectable lady ratio than any other period in history, I believe. Besides, she's in Nahlins. Things were a lot different there than they were is middle-class London. All that French influence and the steamy weather took a toll on "proper behavior".

 

[3113]

Can we get back to lipgloss? Oh, darn. Just broke a nail....

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Can we get back to lipgloss? Oh, darn. Just broke a nail....

You can borrow my bubblegum lip gloss if you want. And I've got this awesome new cotton candy body spray...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

VM

If you study the feminist literature, 'what women want' is always a slave to current fashion, because what they want constantly changes. That is, if one feminist regime wants compulsory military service for women, another regime says no thank you!

But if you examine the history closely women want 2 things: 1) They want men to conform to their moral philosophy, and 2) they want release from their reproductive costs.

Males are reproductive parasites. Males can impregnate a different woman every day and walk away from the result while profiting from spreading their genes. Not so with women. They get one pregnancy which they either abort or sustain. But they get no consolation prize if they abort. That is, Mother Nature allows men to exploit women.

 

[Stella_Omega]

...That is, if one feminist regime wants compulsory military service for women, another regime says no thank you!...

Once again demonstrating the futility of thinking of any group of people as a single lump.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

STELLA

It might surprise you where I get my screwy ideas. Have you ever studied any of the feminist philosophers?

 

[Stella_Omega]

STELLA

It might surprise you where I get my screwy ideas. Have you ever studied any of the feminist philosophers?

Not sure if it's easy to tell, but I'm not impressed by philosophy in general-- feminist philo is as screwy as any other.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Not sure if it's easy to tell, but I'm not impressed by philosophy in general-- feminist philo is as screwy as any other.

I knew there was something about you I loved! Equal opportunity scorn, yeah!