America..tarnished, torn, yet still the shining beacon of hope

[Emperor_Nero]

Okay. How about: Freeing Afghanistan from the murderous dictatorship of a band of religious zealots from outside the nation? That hasn't been accomplished yet, and is still in progress.

Don't forget about freeing the Afghans from a dictatorship of religious zealots from outside the nation that came to power in the first place because of funding and military equipment given them by the United States in the first place.

Then again, we gave a lot of people money, arms and covert backing that we now are firmly against -- Saddam, Muggabe ... the list goes on and on

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Don't forget about freeing the Afghans from a dictatorship of religious zealots from outside the nation that came to power in the first place because of funding and military equipment given them by the United States in the first place.

Then again, we gave a lot of people money, arms and covert backing that we now are firmly against -- Saddam, Muggabe ... the list goes on and on

And, to bring back a theme I tried to start earlier, sometimes because we were trying to do the Right Thing. Mugabe can be placed squarely in Jimmy Carter's lap and if there ever was a man who tried to govern from the standpoint of righteousness and virtue, he was it. The Law of Unforseen Consequences prevails. I believe someone named Murphy wrote it.

 

[rgraham666]

I prefer Finagle's Law myself.

The perversity of the universe tends towards a maximum.

 

[Emperor_Nero]

And, to bring back a theme I tried to start earlier, sometimes because we were trying to do the Right Thing. Mugabe can be placed squarely in Jimmy Carter's lap and if there ever was a man who tried to govern from the standpoint of righteousness and virtue, he was it. The Law of Unforseen Consequences prevails. I believe someone named Murphy wrote it.

We are now being bitten firmly in the ass for decades of foreign policy based on what was convienient and expedient instead of what was right for the long term. The pain of correcting those mistakes is (and will continue to be for some time) far more painful than what would have been inflicted by doing the right thing initially.

 

[Belegon]

I am still proud of my country and will remain so.

In a few short months we will once again have a peaceful revolution here. Because of term limits, a wise application by later generations of an ideal espoused at the very beginning by General Washington, we will be done with Bush.

It remains possible McCain will be elected and continue some of his policies, although I do not believe so and will work against that happening. But even if we elect the Arizonan, Bush is gone. I find it difficult to believe John can match the incompetency and nepotism of George.

Our ideals, as written in the Declaration, are indeed still special. Let us not forget that Jefferson, Adams and Franklin stood upon others shoulders to write them, but let us also celebrate the fact that they pushed boundaries.

We still have greatness within us and ahead of us. I believe this.

The pessimism and despair of many is not necessarily unwarranted, but I remain confidant that it can be offset by the optimism of others.

 

[Boxlicker101]

We are now being bitten firmly in the ass for decades of foreign policy based on what was convienient and expedient instead of what was right for the long term. The pain of correcting those mistakes is (and will continue to be for some time) far more painful than what would have been inflicted by doing the right thing initially.

I wouldn't call it based on what was "convenient and expedient". From the late 1940's on, the primary Anglo-American foreign policy was halting the world hegemony ambition of the USSR. This is what got us into Korea and Vietnam, but we were ultimately successful. I still believe this was something that needed to be done, even though it got us into bed with some unsavory characters, such as The Taliban. At the time, it was probably a good idea.

As for Mugabe, I believe he was a client of the Soviets, in one of their successes, and he probably was supported by Chucklehead Carter. The peanut farmer never was really very bright.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

IAs for Mugabe, I believe he was a client of the Soviets, in one of their successes, and he probably was supported by Chucklehead Carter. The peanut farmer never was really very bright.

Well, he was trying to govern from a position of righteousness and virtue. Whaddya expect?

 

[DeeZire]

Well, he was trying to govern from a position of righteousness and virtue. Whaddya expect?

A question for all you brainiacs out there: would it be fair to say that Carter has done more good as an ex-president than any other ex-president in our history? You've got to give him credit for trying, rather than resting on his laurels and getting rich on the lecture circuit.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

A question for all you brainiacs out there: would it be fair to say that Carter has done more good as an ex-president than any other ex-president in our history? You've got to give him credit for trying, rather than resting on his laurels and getting rich on the lecture circuit.

Oh that's a slam-dunk! Carter is, bar none, the best ex-president America has ever produced. While I'm no great fan of his attempts at personal foreign policy, his efforts on behave of Habitat for Humanity, the Carter Center and, just in passing, his superior personal woodworking make his appear such a superior person to his Democratic successor that the question of "legacy" is reduced to farce.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeZire
A question for all you brainiacs out there: would it be fair to say that Carter has done more good as an ex-president than any other ex-president in our history? You've got to give him credit for trying, rather than resting on his laurels and getting rich on the lecture circuit.

Oh that's a slam-dunk! Carter is, bar none, the best ex-president America has ever produced. While I'm no great fan of his attempts at personal foreign policy, his efforts on behave of Habitat for Humanity, the Carter Center and, just in passing, his superior personal woodworking make his appear such a superior person to his Democratic successor that the question of "legacy" is reduced to farce.

I don't know that I would call it a slam-dunk. Whatever good Carter did domestically, it is at least partially outweighed by his inept meddling in foreign affairs.

Most former presidents went into quiet retirement. Lately, some have gotten rich on the lecture circuit or have become, like Slick Willie, de-facto lobbyists, and gotten rich that way. However, J. Q. Adams had a distinguished career in Congress after he was defeated in his bid for a second term and Taft was a Chief Justice of SCOTUS. Andrew Johnson was briefly a senator from Tennessee. It may be a coincidence but, like Carter, the last three men I mentioned served one term and were defeated in a bid for re-election.

 

[Belegon]

Quote:
I don't know that I would call it a slam-dunk. Whatever good Carter did domestically, it is at least partially outweighed by his inept meddling in foreign affairs.

I will never understand the amount of ire Jimmy Carter gathers in some quarters.

Carter's results in international relations are far superior to that of our current sitting president. Look at the overall perspective. How does the WORLD view him and his legacy?

Now, how do they view Bush?

We are NOT the world. We just think we are. Some moreso than others.

 

[SpicyPepper]

It's a great country.

It's the first one ever founded on ideals of individual liberty and autonomy enunciated in the Declaration. That and Founders' undertanding of the "mixed bag" nature of human nature, and their "baking it into the cake" of the government they created - and the national psyche - means that this country has an ability to "self-correct" and reform itself that is rare if not unique.

People today, including many here, have no sense of historical perspective and context. If they did they would look to something like the Civil War and the "original sin" of slavery and know that the "tarnishes and tears" they perceive to characterize the present era are really very minor. We expiated the original sin then, knitted the nation back together, and 100 years later completed the task of making real our committment to "all men are created equal." Yes it took longer than it should have but we did it - changing culture, hearts and minds rapidly just isn't something that humans do very well - but we did it.

The important thing is that the standard of value enunciated in our founding documents, the values and principles we measure ourselves against, are powerful and right. I don't know of any other nation that has anything similar that guides and binds them, something that goes deeper than ethnicity, ancient origins or other superficial things.

How about also built on the back of the cultural genocide of the Native American people?
In all your celebrations not one person has mentioned that the ONLY reason you HAVE a country is because your ancestors walked in and decided it was theirs, taking everything away from the Native people, breaking hundreds of treaties to found this wonderful country you now live in...

I'm just saying, is all....

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BELEGON

Carter was a marvel unless you happened to be captured by ragheads.

DEE-ZIRE

Carter had no laurels to rest on. He gave the world Reagan.

The 80s were the zenith of Democrat talent: CARTER, MONDULL, and DUKAKIS

 

[cloudy]

How about also built on the back of the cultural genocide of the Native American people?
In all your celebrations not one person has mentioned that the ONLY reason you HAVE a country is because your ancestors walked in and decided it was theirs, taking everything away from the Native people, breaking hundreds of treaties to found this wonderful country you now live in...

I'm just saying, is all....

It's been mentioned, but Rox thinks that it doesn't matter, since she's decided we had no culture to speak of.

Thank you.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

It's been mentioned, but Rox thinks that it doesn't matter, since she's decided we had no culture to speak of.

Thank you.

You do know that the U.S. Constitution is strongly based on the terms that united the Five Civilized Tribes, don't you? Of course the Founders weren't about to include the advanced status women held among the Great Lakes nations.

 

[cloudy]

You do know that the U.S. Constitution is strongly based on the terms that united the Five Civilized Tribes, don't you? Of course the Founders weren't about to include the advanced status women held among the Great Lakes nations.

It wasn't the Five Civilized Tribes; it was modeled on the Iroquois Confederacy. The "Five Civilized Tribes" were the southern nations: Creek, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, and Seminole.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

It wasn't the Five Civilized Tribes, it was modeled on the Iroquois Confederacy. The "Five Civilized Tribes" were the southern nations: Creek, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, and Seminole.

*Slaps wrist vigorously*
Bad enough I can't remember people's names, when the names of entire cultures get away from me, I know I'm getting old!

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxanne Appleby
It's a great country.

It's the first one ever founded on ideals of individual liberty and autonomy enunciated in the Declaration. That and Founders' undertanding of the "mixed bag" nature of human nature, and their "baking it into the cake" of the government they created - and the national psyche - means that this country has an ability to "self-correct" and reform itself that is rare if not unique.

People today, including many here, have no sense of historical perspective and context. If they did they would look to something like the Civil War and the "original sin" of slavery and know that the "tarnishes and tears" they perceive to characterize the present era are really very minor. We expiated the original sin then, knitted the nation back together, and 100 years later completed the task of making real our committment to "all men are created equal." Yes it took longer than it should have but we did it - changing culture, hearts and minds rapidly just isn't something that humans do very well - but we did it.

The important thing is that the standard of value enunciated in our founding documents, the values and principles we measure ourselves against, are powerful and right. I don't know of any other nation that has anything similar that guides and binds them, something that goes deeper than ethnicity, ancient origins or other superficial things.

How about also built on the back of the cultural genocide of the Native American people?
In all your celebrations not one person has mentioned that the ONLY reason you HAVE a country is because your ancestors walked in and decided it was theirs, taking everything away from the Native people, breaking hundreds of treaties to found this wonderful country you now live in...

I'm just saying, is all....

I don't believe anybody would argue with what you are saying, but this is a matter of relativity. Because of its founding principles, the US is a great country, compared to the other major nations of the world. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe there is a single major nation that is controlled by that area's indigenous people. The UK, for instance, is peopled by descendants of Saxon, Roman, Celtic, Norman, and Anglo conquerors. Mexico comes fairly close, being run by descendants of the conquerring Spanish and the natives, but even there, the upper class are mainly European in descent.

 

[cloudy]

*Slaps wrist vigorously*
Bad enough I can't remember people's names, when the names of entire cultures get away from me, I know I'm getting old!

It's okay. Rox would prefer we forgot that little tidbit, anyway.

 

[rgraham666]

It's a great country.

It's the first one ever founded on ideals of individual liberty and autonomy enunciated in the Declaration. That and Founders' undertanding of the "mixed bag" nature of human nature, and their "baking it into the cake" of the government they created - and the national psyche - means that this country has an ability to "self-correct" and reform itself that is rare if not unique.

I'm afraid not, Roxanne. The Corsican Republic came first. The Founders made many a nod to Corsica, and its founder, Pasquale Paoli. Once of history's unfortunately forgotten great people.

 

[SpicyPepper]

Quote:
I don't believe anybody would argue with what you are saying, but this is a matter of relativity. Because of its founding principles, the US is a great country, compared to the other major nations of the world. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe there is a single major nation that is controlled by that area's indigenous people. The UK, for instance, is peopled by descendants of Saxon, Roman, Celtic, Norman, and Anglo conquerors. Mexico comes fairly close, being run by descendants of the conquerring Spanish and the natives, but even there, the upper class are mainly European in descent.

Fair enough, but that might not be the case today if the american government at the time hadn't gone back on their words and treaties and actually left the Natives the land that they said they could keep. Instead of throwing them on the reservations (or reserves) and trying to forget about them. Or worse, taking their children away and sending them off to Catholic boarding schools and raping or killing the Indian out of them.
Maybe instead of living this "throw-away" lifestyle, we could be living WITH nature, in harmony with her and helping her replenish herself instead of using her like a cheap whore and expecting her to keep on giving...

The point I'm trying to make is that there should be a HUGE acknowledgment to the Native people of North America for why you can celebrate your fourth of July and the love of your country.
Give credit where credit is due.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Fair enough, but that might not be the case today if the american government at the time hadn't gone back on their words and treaties and actually left the Natives the land that they said they could keep. Instead of throwing them on the reservations (or reserves) and trying to forget about them. Or worse, taking their children away and sending them off to Catholic boarding schools and raping or killing the Indian out of them.
Maybe instead of living this "throw-away" lifestyle, we could be living WITH nature, in harmony with her and helping her replenish herself instead of using her like a cheap whore and expecting her to keep on giving...

The point I'm trying to make is that there should be a HUGE acknowledgment to the Native people of North America for why you can celebrate your fourth of July and the love of your country.
Give credit where credit is due.

You know, no one made any reference of this sort on Canada day but as my friend, Prof. Marcus Young Owl, who is both Native and Canadian born once firmly pointed out, what happened north of the border was much the same as what happened south. You know this, we know this so why is it only the U.S. who has to make that huge acknowledgement? Sauce for the goose, Spicy . . .

 

[rgraham666]

We're trying, VM.

Our government recently apologized for the residential schools.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

We're trying, VM.

Our government recently apologized for the residential schools.

An excellent first step. We're doing it the hard way. We're sending our First Nations peoples to law school to teach them to fight us for what they should already have.

BTW, did you see that there is movement to returning a large portion of the Black Hills National Park to the Dakota? It won't contain the Hills themselves, unfortunately, but still . . . it's another step.

 

[SpicyPepper]

You know, no one made any reference of this sort on Canada day but as my friend, Prof. Marcus Young Owl, who is both Native and Canadian born once firmly pointed out, what happened north of the border was much the same as what happened south. You know this, we know this so why is it only the U.S. who has to make that huge acknowledgement? Sauce for the goose, Spicy . . .

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I wasn't including us northerners in that, but we also didn't have a gigantic post about the history of Canada and how wonderful it is and why. We just said "Happy Canada Day" and that was about it...
If we had started it with a nice long post about our history with no reference to the Natives, I definitely would have commented on it, you better believe it.
Also, I figured I'd wait until after the actual fourth of July before I posted something that would probably upset people so I wouldn't disrupt their fun...