Your Religion

[ApprenticeApril]

Okay, please no one yell at me! I'm merely asking this question to start a conversation...
Here's the background:
I'm in the process of converting to Judaism. In doing so, I'm getting pretty deep into learning all sorts of things, and of course doing my weekly Torah readings.
Well last week, and this week, I got to the amazing little section about homosexuality. I was immediately confused about my own beliefs on the subject, and furiously researched all about homosexuality and it's relation to Judaism.
Now, my bf and I are both bi, and we indulge often. So I'm feeling very, very, very confused right now. I'm torn between my beliefs/thoughts/opinions on sexuality and my new religion.

I only said all that to preface the question:
What religion are you? How do you incorporate religious beliefs with sexual beliefs? Or any other questions I'm not asking that you may want to answer...

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[Night_Jasmine]

I'm pagan, so it's a lot more open minded.

To be frank, what I recall of the Hebrew faith is very closed minded to homosexuals because the Torah speaks out against it. Mind you, that was written due to population issues and cleanliness back then. It's not the case now.

When choosing a religious path, you need to consider what works best for you and your personal beliefs and values.

If you want to talk more about it, feel free to PM me.

Good luck!

 

[Wolfman1982]

Well, I believe in God. And I am raised in a some what Christian way. But I would never convert to a religion that would say to me, you can´t eat pork. Since I am too much of a viking to accept that.

Anyway here goes for third (fourth maybe ?) time around here: I believe in God, I follow the karma rules (which is in the Bible to those who don´t believe). And I try hard to be a good human being.

Yes, I have Jewish blood in me, but I look like a Scandinavian. Thanks to the strong Scandinavian genes. And in some ways I am too pagan to accept any insane religions that are closed minded. That is why I am not a Christian in modern sense. But in common sense, then you could call me a Christian, but fuck it. I am not going into this shit.

Anyway, my religion is a case between God and me. And not any body else.

 

[DarkBee]

I consider myself a combination of Agnost and Humanist, believing only in humans themselves.

Imho, religion shouldn't have anything to say about what you can and cannot do in your private life, whether it's about the food you eat, what day you may or may not work or the people you fuck.
In short: fuck all major religions when it comes to sex.

 

[versatile1]

The scriptures of many religious traditions have passages that can be interpreted in the context of the time, place, and culture in which they are written.

I am no expert on Judaism, but I am sure that different rabbis from different branches of Judaism--Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed--would interpret the same passages differently.

I consider myself spiritual, yet I refuse to box myself into a particular religion. It may sound strange, but I believe God does and does not exist. In either case I can't believe that God hates GLBT people.

 

[GratefulFred]

Okay, please no one yell at me! I'm merely asking this question to start a conversation...
Here's the background:
I'm in the process of converting to Judaism. In doing so, I'm getting pretty deep into learning all sorts of things, and of course doing my weekly Torah readings.
Well last week, and this week, I got to the amazing little section about homosexuality. I was immediately confused about my own beliefs on the subject, and furiously researched all about homosexuality and it's relation to Judaism.
Now, my bf and I are both bi, and we indulge often. So I'm feeling very, very, very confused right now. I'm torn between my beliefs/thoughts/opinions on sexuality and my new religion.

I only said all that to preface the question:
What religion are you? How do you incorporate religious beliefs with sexual beliefs? Or any other questions I'm not asking that you may want to answer...

Thanks in advance for any input.

Most elements of Judaism are very accepting towards homosexuality though you will always find those who condone it. There are some clauses in the bible that you should learn but understand that they aren't how the majority of Jews feel or act.

There are even temples that are geered for your lifestyle as well in the US such as in South Florida. Where I live in Israel the situation is a struggle to gain acceptance, whereas the religious parties are apart of the government. Still the masses of secular usually win out and Tel Aviv is a perfect place for anyone young or acting young no matter their sexual orientation.

Good luck in your conversion studies...

 

[sunandshadow]

I'm an atheist. My perspective is that all scriptures were written by humans, generally by humans who liked to preach, and they liked to preach because they had strong opinions about what other people should and should not be doing, and knew that tying their opinions to promises of divine rewards and punishments would make people more likely to obey them. There's no doubt that many of these historical preachers had some good messages, like being kind to neighbors and strangers. There's evidence that some of the odder rules like not eating pork in some places and cows in other places had underlying reasons like dangerous microorganisms in pigs or destruction of arable land by overgrazing cattle. And even of the people who preached that homosexuality was a horrible sin, some of them had understandable reasons, like being an old man whose only son had no interest in siring grandchildren for you, a military commander whose men got tangled up in some jealousy drama and started killing each other instead of the enemy, a father whose daughter refused to marry anyone blocking the formation of a useful economic alliance... and before the 1900s beliefs in individuality, the right to the pursuit of happiness, and being true to oneself just weren't developed enough for anyone to make an equally strong argument in favor of homosexuals (or anyone who wanted to do something different from the group) being allowed to do what they wanted to do.

The modern Jewish community sees one of its major strengths as maintaining this historical social unity while other population segments focus on individuals, couples, maybe nuclear families but have no sense of being a lifelong member of a larger group and having your personal existence contribute to that group. This has both positive and negative effects - being part of any group can be comforting and useful, but requires agreeing on some philosophical beliefs with the group, and the more cohesive and historically rooted the group the more philosophical territory their mandatory (possibly outdated or nonsensical) beliefs cover, reducing the individual aesthetic and philosophical freedom of group members.

Personally I find my commitment to understanding the world and humanity in an honest and logical way, and my ability to live my life based on my own evaluations of what is right and important, to be more important than fitting in with a group or feeling impressed by and connected to that group's historical and mythical traditions.

 

[Wolfman1982]

sunandshadow: the most simple answer is probably the hardest to some people to get their heads around. And that is : Do to others what you want them to do to you. Meaning every thing you do in either positive way or negatives have effects on the outcome. So behave properly, and you should be fine quite a long way , but at the same time karma has its quirks and strange things involved. So religion in a GLBT area is a firebomb, waiting to blow. The last time, there I was almost beheaded, when I knew I told the truth about what is in the Koran about "infidels" women were prostitutes. And I backed out, but I know it is true where I got the information from. But it didn´t stand crystal clear through the text. It was written in a strange way, but the meaning was the same. And second of all, I have heard it from Muslim women that non Muslim women were "cheap", so there is a reason. Why religion in a GLBT area is a firebomb.

 

[Svejk]

Personally, I'm a Nihilist. Not in the Big Lebowski sense, but more in the fact that I believe in nothing. I'm not, however, one of these militant atheists who object to the notion of anyone believing in god, if someone finds comfort in the belief in the existance of a higher being or whatever, so be it, personally I find comfort in the belief that there is no higher being, thus freeing myself from the guilt based systems most organised religions are based on. In my ethos I won't burn in hell for all eternity for having sex outside of marriage, becuase I will have simply ceased to exist, a notion I find oddly comforting.

I understand that most people would not find comfort in the idea of the numbing inevitability of eternal oblivion, and if you find some comfort through organised religion, good for you. Personally I am perfectly happy to live and die alone.

As for how this informs my sex life, it doesn't really, I spend far too much time philosiphising.

I should point out that on any official forms, surveys or what-have-you I am Jedi.

 

[ApprenticeApril]

I really appreciate everyone's responses. I want to put a response of my own in here, but I'm still mulling it over in my head (what exactly I want to say). But I thought I would at least comment so it doesn't look like I'm ignoring my own thread.

 

[Programmer Cat]

I don't have a religion. I was raised Catholic, but turned my back on that years before I had my first sexual experiences because I couldn't justify living my life according to somebody or something else's rules. I don't know if god exists or not. I figure I'll find out soon enough. In the meantime, I do as I please as long as I don't hurt anybody else. You could, if you needed a label, call me an atheist. That's fine, as being irreligious made it a lot easier for me to accept that my wife and I are bi.

 

[none2_none2]

Over time most people have to integrate acceptance of their sexuality with their world view. If you don't, you'll end up with a psychosis or possibly attempting suicide. A human being cannot thrive if you believe some essential part of you is evil or wrong. Self-loathing isn't desirable.

I think most gays either give up on religion, or they learn to belive that one's religion CAN be flawed. I'm in the latter case. To me it is like going to a cafeteria. You take what you want, and let someone else pick up the bad stuff if they so choose.

Some people cannot fathom taking only parts of ones organized religion. To them it is all black/white, all/nothing mentality. I pity them. Such fenced in ways of thought must be unhealthy.

As to those that gave up on their religion, that is their right. Just don't get upset that not all came to the same conclusion. Also, don't turn gayness into a religion of itself. Being gay doesn't make you any better than anybody else.

 

[ApprenticeApril]

The more I think about this situation, the more sense it makes to me.
When I really think about it, I kind of am already picking and choosing. I am closer to Conservative Judaism, but there are still several aspects of Orthodoxy that appeal to me.
I don't know if it's something that I will ever be 100% confortable with the whole situation, but I really don't think I could turn my back on something that is so ingrained in me. (Being bi)
At the same time, I chose Judaism because it really felt like a right fit for me. I don't necessarily think that anything that may have been written in biblical times can necessarily just be pushed aside because "times have changed." I know that's a controversial statement, but it's what I believe.
Basically I really think this is a subject that my opinion will always be an ever-evolving concept for me. But, I'm already a lot more clear than I was two weeks ago. Thanks every one for sharing your opinions.

 

[Night_Jasmine]

I'll be the first to tell you this - if any religion demands you alter a core part of yourself (sexuality or whatnot) and that part of yourself is something that makes you happy and balanced..WALK AWAY!!!

 

[JerseyDreams]

I'll be the first to tell you this - if any religion demands you alter a core part of yourself (sexuality or whatnot) and that part of yourself is something that makes you happy and balanced..WALK AWAY!!!

That makes a lot of sense!!

One of the reasons why I believe in God, but not in organized religion.

 

[Tymeless]

The more educated I become the less I find myself being able to follow religion of any kind blindly. As far as I'm concerned its all mythology. I still have a slight belief in god but I won't say I'm convinced there is a god. I want to believe I really do but being of a scientific mindset I'd like some proof before I'll ever fully commit and state matter of factly their is a god. Its getting late and I'm heading off to bed but I can expand on this later if anyone is interested.

 

[KokopelliRises]

I'm a pagan deist. I believe that the universe was created by some power, perhaps a god, that decided afterwards to sit back and watch. I think deism forces people to think for themselves, not to blindly accept what a preacher/priest/rabbi/any other kind of religious authority figure tells them. This also helps me justify my belief in a heaven.

But there is a reason the pagan part is first (other than the fact that the word order is more fluid). I do believe that we were all created from nature and that nature can produce things more powerful than human beings could ever dream it could. Think of all of the destruction that hurricanes, flash floods, tsunamis, tornadoes, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions can do, the pain, the sorrow, the loss. I believe that nature isn't that bad because of all the beautiful things it can create, the small things like robins chirping, cherry trees blossoming in the spring, a cooing baby, a refreshing rain. Nature also creates people just as they are, not perfectly good or perfectly bad, just human. This leaves the world open for many different kinds of people.

I'm not sure how my spiritual (not religious) beliefs affect what I believe about sexuality and as sexual beings, but I do know my system of beliefs leaves the world open for people of all different sexual orientations and preferences, as long as they live/practice them responsibly.

 

[gloriann]

I was not raised in or with a religion, nor any guidance in spirituality. It was left up to me to become spiritual, and for me it is a very private matter. However, because of this, I have been able to take the good from many different belief systems and cultures, the things that make sense in my own brain, and incorporate them into my own morality. My sexuality is different from my spirituality, however they are connected, of course, and they support one another.

 

[ApprenticeApril]

The more educated I become the less I find myself being able to follow religion of any kind blindly. As far as I'm concerned its all mythology. I still have a slight belief in god but I won't say I'm convinced there is a god. I want to believe I really do but being of a scientific mindset I'd like some proof before I'll ever fully commit and state matter of factly their is a god. Its getting late and I'm heading off to bed but I can expand on this later if anyone is interested.

Actually the more educated I become, the more I believe in religion. But, I don't see myself as following blindly. One of the things that drew me to Judaism is their belief in a fanatical pursuit of knowledge. Learning and questioning are a form of worship.

I also believe in science (I'm a follower of evolution). If you're interested in learning how science and religion can indeed work together, you should try reading The Language of God. It's really an amazing book.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

I will start out by saying I'm an atheist.
That said, no one no one no one follows all the rules of their religion.
It would be paralyzing.
Actually, to follow them all, you'd have to kill people, in most religions, and certainly discriminate against some people.
So, you really do have the option of leaving things out. People might give you some flack, but it has always seemed to me that, if there's a god, he forgives everyone or he forgives no one.
*shrug*

 

[none2_none2]

Actually the more educated I become, the more I believe in religion. But, I don't see myself as following blindly. One of the things that drew me to Judaism is their belief in a fanatical pursuit of knowledge. Learning and questioning are a form of worship.

I also believe in science (I'm a follower of evolution). If you're interested in learning how science and religion can indeed work together, you should try reading The Language of God. It's really an amazing book.

I like that comment. Too many people assume that ignorance equates to religion and knowledge equates to atheism. You find that a lot among academia.

I have had challenges to my belief system. I was raised by my grandmother, so we were very close. She died in Nov 2003 less than 3 months from 100. I felt nothing after she died. No sense that she was in a better place, a worse place, or any place at all. However, I came to my own conclusion that I was expecting to experience something "my way". The universe doesn't bow down to "my needs". That doesn't negate that there is something more. Plus I figured that if thoughts, feelings, personalities, etc (spirit/soul/whatever you want to call it) were just momentary energy events, it would be such a waste of time and energy. So I guess you can say as sad as the event of her passing was, I just found no solace or peace of mind by jumping ship into a belief of nothingness. I simply know that my senses are limited and I cannot conclusively say there is nothing just because I didn't get some "visitation" or whatever I thought I would encounter in dealing with loosing her.

 

[littleninja]

I've noticed that most major religions tend to be very patriarchal, which always begged the question, for me, what is so threatening about women that religious institutions feel the need to repress them.... And now I'm thinking the same thing about sex. What is it about sex that inspires religious people to call it dirty and push it into a dark closet?

The Torah is indeed not very friendly towards homosexuality, but my impression of sex in general in the torah wasn't really positive either.

Is it feasible to you to be part of a religion, but simply choose to disagree on the subject of sex?

I was raised evangelical christian, but now I'm more or less unaffiliated. I had a hard time mixing sexual "beliefs" with spiritual beliefs.... and had that been the only problem, I might still be a christian. I will say that my upbringing had a lot of negative influences on my sexual development, so my gut reaction is to separate sex and religion, the same way I want to separate politics and religion.

A religion should make you a happier, more balanced person, in all areas of your life. If it's doing that, then great. If not, fix it or move on.

 

[alaskabibear]

Oh my! Such a potentially dangerous Thread topic. But just look at all the responses - clearly there is a lot of interest. And as none2none said above, until we can reconcile our world view with our actual lives we will live in a distressed state of being. So, it is an important topic as well I think. Many of us have visited this topic in the past, but like wolfman, I'll try to reiterate again some of what seems important to me. (sorry, it again turned out probably too long for this format! but since it's now done I might as well post it and you can read it or skip it.)

First, I too am formally trained in the sciences. I tend to value logic and rational analysis - just part of my education. As a young man I was un-churched. However, in my late teens I experienced what can best be termed I suppose as a "spiritual awakening" - an inner hungering may be more accurate. Therefore, in addition to the formal education, I have spent probably thousands of hours in personal study and have read hundreds of books on this subject.

When I was young I was convinced that I knew for certain all about God. (ok, don't laugh! I said I was young!). However, now I can say with acceptance that I know nothing with certainty. But, logic tends to convince me that there is in fact a 'God' - (a word in bad favor because of past bad behavior - but, let us call this; 'Creator', or 'First Cause', or 'Mother', whatever - what we call "It" is irrelevant because any name given is for our ability to communicate our thoughts only. I kind of like the "I Am Who I Am" of the Jews).

Again, logic tends to convince me that "Nature" in and of itself cannot be the Source - it is only a record that some "Greater Force" has been here - much like a wonderful painting by an unknown artist can never be called the artist, it can only point to something more wonderful who created it. Thus, the worship of Nature as the Source seems to be lacking. (however, Nature as an icon of the greatness of 'God' is clearly worthy of honor, awe and respect.)

From my own considerations and meditations I believe that 'God' is beyond our understanding - but not beyond our intuitive inner knowledge of 'God's' existence. I don't think 'God' "lives" in our universe or is even bound by our understanding of time. The great religions teach that God transcends all that we can know or even imagine. Jesus said, God is spirit, and those who would worship (e.g. know?) God must worship in spirit. This statement is a "proof" in and of itself of our inability to know about 'God' - consider and answer for yourself; What is a spirit? Of what is spirit made of? What is Life? However, we see all around us things endowed with a small portion of Life - Life is the very essence of 'God'. The absence of life is death - thus, the absence of 'God' is death.

The purpose of all major religions is to make a connection to the source of Life. In Christianity (of which I am most familiar) the culminating theological revelation made by Jesus was made on the night of his betrayal as recorded in John 17:20-26. In the briefest summary, what he prayed to 'God' for was that all of us might become reunited into the "Source of Life". (vs 21, ...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us...). And remember, Jesus had already revealed that 'God' is spirit (whatever that is). So, it seems that we are intended for a greater journey into the unknown based on these statements! Which very thing most of the major religions have also revealed.

I guess to try to end this I would just say; We are spiritual beings. What we shall be has not yet been revealed to us (for whatever reason). But, 'God' has given humans revelations throughout history through various men and women gifted with an inner knowledge - a spiritual knowledge. (and I urge you to not dismiss that which you simply cannot understand. These men and women can be likened to great mathematicians or other geniuses we cannot understand. I just read some words by a Native American "wise man" who said something along these lines; "this power comes and we cannot stop it, it goes and we cannot hold it..."). These great contemplatives, monks and prophets of all ages and places have tried to express this "spiritual language" which they had heard in the inner universe of the spirit. But, all of the great religions acknowledge that it is impossible to fully express these magical and wonderful "spiritual words" into weak and feeble words used by us humans. Thus, the great spiritual truths having once been revealed also become corrupted and mis-understood. Humans (men mostly) of corrupt mind and spirit try to use the great truths to their own personal advantage. That which was intended for good becomes evil in the hands of evil men. But, that in and of itself does not make the great truths into an untruth - darkness can never overcome light, it is simply the absence of light - as soon as the light is restored, darkness does not have true existence at all. It is the same with Evil, 'God' did not create evil - it is simply the temporary absence of Good. I think in the final outcome, all humans will be reunited with the 'Source of Life'. Unlike modern American Evangelical Christianity, I tend to believe as many of the ancient teachers thought - that God is greater than we can imagine and God's Love is beyond our understanding - if that is true, then this means that God's Love is so much greater than even the most loving human. And if even I would have enough love and compassion to desire that all humans would be returned to God and be in a state of ultimate peace - how much more so does God desire this very thing? In the end, I think I will just trust in this God to do the right thing - actually, what other choice do I have? As to the question of which "religion"; they are all of the realm of flesh and bone - they feed our senses, our soul and mind - they all point to the Source of Life, but in and of themselves they are not that Life - thus, they all serve a purpose which we physical/sensual creatures need and if taken in that context they are a good and useful thing - but, it is up to us individually to journey inward, to attempt to awaken and discover our own spirit, and to seek and try to reconnect with this Source of Life (should we so choose).

I guess I should add - IMHO!!!

 

[Noira]

I'm a non-denominational Christian, and I don't believe that God hates homosexuals more than he hate any other sinner. (shrugs) My beliefs lead me to believe that EVERYONE has sinned. It also led me to the Bible verse that says, paraphrased 'all sin is equal', and hence any Christian who denounces a homosexual is no better than them because they TOO are sinners. Basically, I believe in equality, so no one should have the right to discriminate.

And that's how my religion effects my sexuality.

Incidentially, I'm straight, not bi, just adding in my imput, seeing as I am posting on a site about sex. =P

 

[ApprenticeApril]

I've noticed that most major religions tend to be very patriarchal, which always begged the question, for me, what is so threatening about women that religious institutions feel the need to repress them.... And now I'm thinking the same thing about sex. What is it about sex that inspires religious people to call it dirty and push it into a dark closet?

The Torah is indeed not very friendly towards homosexuality, but my impression of sex in general in the torah wasn't really positive either.

Is it feasible to you to be part of a religion, but simply choose to disagree on the subject of sex?

I was raised evangelical christian, but now I'm more or less unaffiliated. I had a hard time mixing sexual "beliefs" with spiritual beliefs.... and had that been the only problem, I might still be a christian. I will say that my upbringing had a lot of negative influences on my sexual development, so my gut reaction is to separate sex and religion, the same way I want to separate politics and religion.

A religion should make you a happier, more balanced person, in all areas of your life. If it's doing that, then great. If not, fix it or move on.

Bold added by me.
One of the things I like about Judaism is that it actually Does recognize that sex is about a man AND a woman. For instance, in the marriage contract signed by the husband and given to his bride, one of the promises made is that he will fulfill her sexual needs as well. It is the husbands responsibility to ensure his wife's happiness in the bedroom. I personally believe in the whole, hey it's a two way street thing but I like that it's recognized in a religion where often it's overlooked.