Silencing the voices

[DEFCOM5]

If you want me to go into more detail about my feedback, I would be happy to give you some time for that.

Thank you. If/when I decide to revisit this story, i will go over your feedback and reach out for details if needed.

 

[iwatchus]

Thank you. If/when I decide to revisit this story, i will go over your feedback and reach out for details if needed.

You know I think you should revisit the story. There is a good story in there that is begging be let out. My offer always stands.

 

[DEFCOM5]

You know I think you should revisit the story. There is a good story in there that is begging be let out. My offer always stands.

Thank you. As I said to @TheRedLantern, if I ever decide to pull the story off the shelf, I have your feedback and will reach out.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Thank you. As I said to @TheRedLantern, if I ever decide to pull the story off the shelf, I have your feedback and will reach out.

We worked OK on Gypsy Lake (which has a great premise). I’ve got an edit / beta backlog, but - maybe when some time has passed - we can take a look at it again.

Once more ideas are much less common than writing proficiency, much of which is practice. You can do this.

 

[DEFCOM5]

We worked OK on Gypsy Lake (which has a great premise). I’ve got an edit / beta backlog, but - maybe when some time has passed - we can take a look at it again.

Thank you for the offer. Let's see if the story ever leaves the shelf

Once more ideas are much less common than writing proficiency, much of which is practice. You can do this.

@EmilyMiller, thank you for the encouragements.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Coming in late here. Sorry.

Brandon Sanderson wrote a dozen or more unpublishable novels before he sold one. He has said in his advice for writers: be willing to write bad stories, to learn how to write better ones.

Accept that you need to get better. Write anyway.

--Annie

 

[jsmiam]

Two things. Two and a half.

One: posts like this are complex. The answer is a simple “don’t be so sensitive”, but we all know saying “don’t be so sensitive” will do no good. Nonetheless, don’t be so sensitive.

Two: you eventually made yourself clear, so you’ve absolved yourself and apologized enough, for seeming to have been blaming your volunteer editors.

Two and a half: nonetheless, you could lightly edit post number 1 (I recommend via strike through, not wholesale changes. Just to make further misunderstandings less likely.)

 

[lovecraft68]

The other side of something like this is volunteer editors and beta readers are giving up their time to provide feedback to an author who claims they want honest feedback.

Until that feedback leaves them butthurt because they weren't told their work is the best they've read. Then the author gets snarky with them, or like now, come to the boards bitching as this is far from the first thread we've had like this. Meanwhile the beta reader wasted their time.

I had a thread at some point "Why do they bother asking" because this has happened to me a few times over the years. "Can you tell me what you think?" Okay, I tell them and start with the good then get into what they could improve. More often than not I get a form of "what do you know" or some long winded defense of what they wrote, but in each case, why do they ask? To be pat on the back and glazed by another author seems to be the answer.

This happens in review threads as well. "Please review mine next" review isn't all flattering and some are fine with that, others cry.

Some cry to the point they run around the boards bashing the reviewer and their friends start a thread bashing the reviewer.

Helping other writers is a good pay it forward thing to do, but unfortunately, it's not always worth it and one bad experience could be the last time they bother doing it.

Then there are editors/reviewers/beta readers who power trip and love bashing other writers to try to sound like some superior edge lords of writing. If that's a writer's first experience with using someone to 'help' that can be a bad thing.

Good on both sides, shit on both sides and we need to be adult enough to decide how we process what we get back without going to far in either direction of 'I'm the best" or "Why do I bother?"

Keep in mind, none of these folks are experts and, in the end, its mostly opinion beyond basic grammar/technical writing.

 

[DEFCOM5]

Two and a half: nonetheless, you could lightly edit post number 1 (I recommend via strike through, not wholesale changes. Just to make further misunderstandings less likely.)

Done. Clarified that it is all me, not my 2 great beta readers

 

[EmilyMiller]

I’d like to add some comments here, in response to the generic advice to grow a thicker skin. Two points. First it’s harder for some people to do that than others. Some of us are wired to take any criticism very personally, and it’s not like we can flick a switch and toughen up. ‘Grow a thicker skin’ is kinda adjacent to saying ‘just snap out of it’ to a depressed person. We are all different and have different demons to deal with.

Second, the moment that an author stops caring viscerally about their work is the moment that their writing becomes formulaic painting by numbers. Caring deeply is the obverse of creativity. It’s passion that drives great art, not technical ability (I’m not dismissing the latter which is necessary to convey your ideas to others).

So, I suppose I’m saying if you have never felt the way that the OP did, you are probably writing at 80% of what you could write. You’re not pouring your soul into it. Thing is, if you do pour your soul into writing, you make yourself ultravulenerable about it.

Finally, as a writer who benefits from proof-reading, alpha and beta reading from a range of people, and who does the same herself (this is such a run on sentence ) it’s a skill to both give and receive feedback. I’m sure my [often lengthy] notes have sometimes caused a void to open in the author’s stomach. I know it has happened to me the other way around.

Like writing itself, giving and receiving feedback takes time and practice*. It also works best - in my experience - when it’s a long term (and maybe reciprocal) arrangement when trust in good intentions becomes an engram.

* Not intending here to belittle the approach of the two beta readers in question here. I’m speaking generally

 

[EmilyMiller]

It also works best - in my experience - when it’s a long term (and maybe reciprocal) arrangement when trust in good intentions becomes an engram.

Example:

Me commenting on one of @Djmac1031 s stories:

“Clumsy AF, reword.”

Me commenting on a story written by an author I’ve not worked with before:

“I didn’t quite get that. Maybe you could look at it again and see if you can express things more clearly.”

Of course, if I’m in scenario two above and it’s a lengthy work I’m reading, I might gravitate to the scenario one approach over time

 

[iwatchus]

I want to second almost everything Emily said much more elegantly than I would have.

I strongly believe he was vulnerable because he did pour his soul into that story. His passion for the story was clear in reading it.

And, unrequested, he did volunteer to read my contest story and gave me feedback on it. Most of his feedback surrounded my MC being a bitch (she is), comments I chose to ignore because that is who she is in my head. It did presage many of the comments I got, but I'm still happier having written my story. People earlier in this thread have expressed concern over using beta readers because they will destroy your artistic integrity. I disagree. I think it's important to hear what they say and they make a choice. If it violates your story, don't follow it. The author has to have thick enough skin to be able to hear the criticism, but the reader has to have thick enough skin to not be insulted when their advice is disregarded*. Ultimately it has to be the author's story, their vision. In other words, both parties need to trust the other.

* I never felt like DefCom5 took my disregarding his advice personally or harshly. Talking generally.

 

[Djmac1031]

Grow a thicker skin’ is kinda adjacent to saying ‘just snap out of it’ to a depressed person. We are all different and have different demons to deal with.

I appreciate that thought and will certainly consider how I approach that kinda thing going forward.

I come from an old school generation that basically pushed that "just snap out of it" mentality. I understand it's not exactly healthy but old habits die hard.

Example:

Me commenting on one of @Djmac1031 s stories:

“Clumsy AF, reword.”

I think it took us both awhile to get there, honestly. As friends there's always that concern of coming off as too harsh or critical or hurting someone's feelings. So we both kinda tap danced around our editorial comments.

But as both trust and friendship grew we become more comfortable with the idea of being able to be more blunt in our criticism, while of course still being kind.

And it also helps we're both fully aware of our writing flaws in the rough draft stages of our stories.

 

[sirhugs]

After being told by 2 beta readers (who have written stories I respect) that my story was unreadable had potential but needed quite a bit of work. I have not been able to write anything.
I tried yesterday to avoid grading but I could not write 2 sentences without deleting them. So I have not written a word in 10 days. I have had stories in my head but that is where they are. The reason is that anytime I put something together, I hear the voice inside my head (my own voices, not the beta readers) laughing at me and telling me "your shit is unreadable."

I am sure I am not the first one to face such a situation. Any suggestions on how I effectively tell the voices to fuck off?

To be clear, this is not author's block. I have plenty of ideas in my head. I just cannot get past the idea that what I write is shit will end up being mocked. I know intellectually that this makes no sense but emotionally, I cannot shut them down.

at least it is your own voice. It is bad to hear strange voices.

 

[EmilyMiller]

People earlier in this thread have expressed concern over using beta readers because they will destroy your artistic integrity.

I personally find that bizarre.

I know @Voboy said something adjacent to that (and then clarified further) and he’s one of our best and - I hope - a friend.

As any of my beta readers will confirm, I pick and chose what feedback to act on and how. I think the only time I can recall taking feedback verbatim is when I’m writing someone else’s character and the creator says “they would have said or done X and not Y.” I always act on that and in the way the creator asks me to. Otherwise it’s solely my decision what feedback to act on and how.

 

[DEFCOM5]

* I never felt like DefCom5 took my disregarding his advice personally or harshly. Talking generally.

I never did. I provided feedback and you incorporated what made sense to you.

It was just my free opinion and you got what you paid for!

THIS IS A JOKE PEOPLE! Trying to prevent people to lose their shit about another post of mine going haywire.

 

[DEFCOM5]

I come from an old school generation that basically pushed that "just snap out of it" mentality. I understand it's not exactly healthy but old habits die hard.

I came from the same school, especially for men and it led to so much toxicity in me that I became totally miserable.

Since I accepted my own feeling and vulnerability, life is better, but I am way more sensitive.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think it took us both awhile to get there, honestly.

Which is a benefit of a long-term collab.

The potential disadvantage is that it becomes too cozy (certain issues with the other person’s writing become invisible), which is where a sprinkling of other opinions can be helpful.

Like most things, it’s kinda complicated.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

We've seen many authors mentioning using beta readers, and quite often, those are peers beta readers. It seems to me that many new authors copy the practice, but the truth is that beta readers aren't for everyone. Not everyone works well with them; not everyone can take the suggestions and criticism well. Of course, there were some sensible suggestions about setting boundaries and clear goals when using beta readers, to avoid possible missteps.

But even then, not everyone can function as a writer with that setup. Authors should enter carefully into such arrangements and test their own reaction to the reader or peer opinion first, before plunging into that kind of relationship.

For example, I see many authors here use peers as beta readers, and the arrangement is often for them to be mutual beta readers. That's great if it works well for everyone.
As I previously mentioned, I don't need or want beta readers, and especially peer beta readers, not because I can't handle the potential criticism and feedback, but because I see that as cheating of a sort; as a cheating of themselves mostly.
It's not my intention to call anyone out, just saying that if you act on peer beta-reading feedback, then the story isn't fully yours anymore. And except for the moral issues of using it, it's not very different from using AI as a writing aide.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

^^ I won't go that far, but I think it can lead to bad feelings all around as we've seen here. The Betas can feel rejected if their ideas aren't used ... 'why did I waste my time then?' The writer can feel like it isn't their own story any more if they accept the suggestions.

If the finished product doesn't go as well as the writer had hoped, the 'what ifs?' come out. What if I hadn't made the suggested changes? What if I had made more suggested changes?

 

[StillStunned]

We've seen many authors mentioning using beta readers, and quite often, those are peers beta readers. It seems to me that many new authors copy the practice, but the truth is that beta readers aren't for everyone. Not everyone works well with them; not everyone can take the suggestions and criticism well. Of course, there were some sensible suggestions about setting boundaries and clear goals when using beta readers, to avoid possible missteps.

But even then, not everyone can function as a writer with that setup. Authors should enter carefully into such arrangements and test their own reaction to the reader or peer opinion first, before plunging into that kind of relationship.

For example, I see many authors here use peers as beta readers, and the arrangement is often for them to be mutual beta readers. That's great if it works well for everyone.
As I previously mentioned, I don't need or want beta readers, and especially peer beta readers, not because I can't handle the potential criticism and feedback, but because I see that as cheating of a sort; as a cheating of themselves mostly.
It's not my intention to call anyone out, just saying that if you act on peer beta-reading feedback, then the story isn't fully yours anymore. And except for the moral issues of using it, it's not very different from using AI as a writing aide.

Personally, I think beta reading is a tool best used selectively. A second opinion on something you're not sure about, rather than a wholesale "is this story OK?"

 

[Djmac1031]

It's not my intention to call anyone out, just saying that if you act on peer beta-reading feedback, then the story isn't fully yours anymore

There have been very, VERY few times a beta readers suggestion has completely altered the course of my story. And even then it was more of a "I'm trying to decide between A and B and the beta reader swayed me towards B."

Most beta reader feedback consists of pointing out typos, clunky run on sentences and over used adjectives.

That said, if I feel a beta readers suggestions have been helpful enough to actually shape the story, having an influence over plot and / or characters, I'm more than happy to credit them with such.

 

[EmilyMiller]

but because I see that as cheating of a sort; as a cheating of themselves mostly.

You’ve said this before and all I can say is I totally and utterly disagree. Many mainstream novels I read thank both professionals and friends / family members who read their work pre-publishing. It’s a practice as old as writing and definitively not cheating. I’d suggest yours is the outlier opinion here.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Personally, I think beta reading is a tool best used selectively. A second opinion on something you're not sure about, rather than a wholesale "is this story OK?"

I agree it can be okay in very small dosages, especially if you do it in the bouncing ideas stage, and not when you've actually written the story.

But say, a peer beta reader tells you that your main character lacks depth and that you should add some background, some motive for your character acting a certain way, or that the chemistry between your characters doesn't work, and that you should introduce some history and maybe conflict or obstacle between them. Say you accept the advice as sound, and you change your story accordingly.
How's that fully your own story then? I don't even think it's a particularly good way to learn writing. It's too much of a crutch.

 

[Djmac1031]

Personally, I think beta reading is a tool best used selectively. A second opinion on something you're not sure about, rather than a wholesale "is this story OK?"

99% of the time, what I'm looking for from a beta reader isn't plot advice so much as "hey look for anything that doesn't make sense or is poorly expressed so I can fix it."

If I'm struggling with a story I absolutely have several friends here I've consulted on the issues. But I've never asked anyone to write my stories for me, to come up with all the answers.

Generally I'll explain where I'm stuck and the potential ideas I have and bounce them off of someone, get their options. But ultimately the choice of what I decide to do is mine.