A place to discuss the craft of writing: tricks, philosophies, styles

[BellaBestia]

Random thoughts about what works for me so far:

I write first draft in long hand in notebooks or legal pads. Fast and furious to get the bare bones down on paper before I forget or lose interest or the excitement evaporates. Then the next day I type it up, adding to it, editing, fleshing it out or pairing things down. If necessary I’ll do research on something I’ve mentioned that I’m uncomfortably unfamiliar with. This can take days or weeks. Until i feel it’s done.

I’m always mindful of the rhythm of a piece, the poetic pacing. Plot and character first but poetry and rhythm are just as important.

I read once that Frank Herbert would plot out scenes of his novels as haikus. When I’m a bit stuck in the reeds I try to do that too.

Mostly I follow Hemingway’s advice “Strong verbs. Short sentences.” And “Write drunk, edit sober”.

Whether my stuff is any good or not is for others to decide. I like it. I like to go back and re-read my own stuff sometimes, without criticism or whinging over an ill-chosen word or punctuation. I mean once it published there’s nothing I can change about it, I just let it live out there, let it fly.

 

[LydaMarbanks]

So I guess my question is - have I gone overboard and is there a right way of writing a novel to completion in your view?

The best way of writing a novel to completion is, quite honestly, whatever method works for completing it.

Keep in mind, too, that the definition of "novel" varies considerably. For example, a lot of Harlequin romances are right around the 50K mark. On the other hand, if you're writing high fantasy, 100K seems to be a minimum requirement. And, of course, there are lots of novels that break the rules.

I finished an 80K word fan fiction novel earlier this year. In outline, I thought I would be closer to 90K, but as I was writing, I realized that the last few scenes were just filler. Once I was past the climax, it was time to wind it down and get out of the story. For the record, J.D. Robb is famous for ending her "Naked" books within two or three pages of the climax. My novel ended about ten pages afterward.

So, I guess, I would wonder why you feel like 85K isn't enough? Is there an outstanding plot thread? You haven't yet made it to the climax? What's missing? If the answer is "nothing," then that might be an indication that the story is done and it's time to close it out. 85K is nothing at all to sneeze at.

 

[AG31]

I want to be able to craft dialogue that doesn't bore. I am asking myself the question, "How can I create 'living breathing' dialogue as well as the feelings experienced by the characters when engaged in dialogue?". My first short story accomplished bringing my internal dialogue front and center. Next step bringing a 'not me' character's dialogue to the same standard.

An author's "ear for dialogue" is very important to me. If it rings false I often just close the book and move on.

One thing I'd suggest is write out a draft of your conversation, where all the information is conveyed between the people, then go back line by line and imagine real human beings saying that. Would they use more contractions? Fewer complete sentences? Would one character talk in a slightly different rhythm than the other(s)? Would someone throw in irrelevant cracks? Etc.

 

[MelissaBaby]

An author's "ear for dialogue" is very important to me. If it rings false I often just close the book and move on.

One thing I'd suggest is write out a draft of your conversation, where all the information is conveyed between the people, then go back line by line and imagine real human beings saying that. Would they use more contractions? Fewer complete sentences? Would one character talk in a slightly different rhythm than the other(s)? Would someone throw in irrelevant cracks? Etc.

…and read it aloud.

 

[HordHolm]

Regarding contractions in dialogue, remember that whilst it's natural that contractions are mostly used, there can be a time when they are definitely not used. This can be, for example, for emphasis:

"I would've told you I'd be late, if you'd told me you're coming." This is natural, a simple statement conveyed in a normal tone of voice.

"I would have told you I would be late, if you had told me you were coming." This can imply irritation on the part of the speaker. Spelling out every word emphasises it. Add an appropriate dialogue tag (e.g. 'she hissed in his ear') and it becomes clear for the reader.

It shouldn't be over used, but dropping the contractions has value in the right context.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Regarding contractions in dialogue, remember that whilst it's natural that contractions are mostly used, there can be a time when they are definitely not used. This can be, for example, for emphasis:

"I would've told you I'd be late, if you'd told me you're coming." This is natural, a simple statement conveyed in a normal tone of voice.

"I would have told you I would be late, if you had told me you were coming." This can imply irritation on the part of the speaker. Spelling out every word emphasises it. Add an appropriate dialogue tag (e.g. 'she hissed in his ear') and it becomes clear for the reader.

It shouldn't be over used, but dropping the contractions has value in the right context.

Agreed. But it can be tricky. For example, here's a bit of a scene from my story, Oyster River, The conversation is between Michelle, a young lesbian, and her father, with whom she works on a lobster boat in a small town on the coast of Maine.

"Of course, I didn't want my little girl to be all tore up inside about who she was or if I thought it was all right, and that seems to have worked out."

"I've always known that."

"But the one thing that bothered me, and does to this day, was thinking of you being lonely. I know how hard that hurts. Known it since your mom passed."

A trio of gulls circled overhead. Michelle watched them for a few minutes.

"Sonsabitchs want your sandwich," her father said.

She looked at him and said "I am lonely, Pop."

"I've told you before, honey. I could hire a sternman, maybe not one as good as you, but one that'll do the job. You could move down to Portland and sign on with a boat there, or out of Yarmouth. You could meet more girls your own age, maybe find somebody special."

Michelle finished her sandwich and stood up. "The problem with that, Pop, is there ain't nothing special about me."

An anonymous reader, who gave an overall poor review (Boo hoo, it's got a 4.82 rating) made this complaint:

"your use of contractions doesn't make sense either. Why would any young person, anywhere, ever say "I am lonely, Pop." - only in the very next sentence, say "The problem with that, Pop, is there ain't nothing special about me"?"

I think that nearly every other reader probably read the line as "I am lonely, Pop." To me, the context is clear, the emphasis should be on the "am", so a contraction would be inappropriate. But that went over the commenter's head. I've thought about how I could have written the line so that it would be clearer, but I really don't think there is a way. Sometimes people are just going to get it wrong.

 

[DeMont]

My first story was published today. I am a poet, so dialogue is not part of my repertoire. Too many times I've tried to craft a story with dialogue (unsuccessfully). Finally, I found a workaround. Only two lines of dialogue.

@SmilingLez,
Good evening, I was recently directed to an excellent explanation piece (clear instruction with pop quizzes and final test) that deals with the matter of presentation of dialogue.

• The essay "How to Make Characters Talk" in our Writer's Resources section has more information on the formatting of dialogue if you have further questions: https://www.literotica.com/s/how-to-make-characters-talk

I ALWAYS struggle with dialogue in particular because there are nuances that do not fit in with the basic grammar of a monologue. You may find it useful going forward. Well worth a look through.
Most respectfully,
D.

 

[DeMont]

Regarding contractions in dialogue, remember that whilst it's natural that contractions are mostly used, there can be a time when they are definitely not used. This can be, for example, for emphasis:

"I would've told you I'd be late, if you'd told me you're coming." This is natural, a simple statement conveyed in a normal tone of voice.

"I would have told you I would be late, if you had told me you were coming." This can imply irritation on the part of the speaker. Spelling out every word emphasises it. Add an appropriate dialogue tag (e.g. 'she hissed in his ear') and it becomes clear for the reader.

It shouldn't be over used, but dropping the contractions has value in the right context.

@HordHolm and @MelissaBaby,
Good morning,
Given the points you put forward there is also, in my mind and writing, a place for further contractions and "nuance" based in "colloquial" or " everyday speak" (as I call it.)
As an example, I have recently written;

"The door opened and a slightly shorter, no less muscular, Japanese-American version of McGarrat walked in. He stuck out one powerful hand, “Chen, pleased t’meetcha. So, you’re gonna be the new graveyard guy huh?”

and

“In here newbie.” He opened the door and led us into a spacious waiting room. “Siddown, I’ll let th’ boss know you’re here.”


Now, naturally, the first should, at full length, have read,

The door opened and a slightly shorter, no less muscular, Japanese-American version of McGarrat walked in. He stuck out one powerful hand, “Chen, pleased to meet you. So, you’re going to be the new night-shift tester are you?" (full and proper form)

The latter,

"In here." He opened the door and led the way into a spacious waiting room. "Sit down, I'll let the boss know you're here." (Again full form, no contractions)

However, in striving to create a realistic and more "natural" interchange I let the "colloquial speech" forms have their run. My question is, though being careful not to overuse the style, is this something that many readers can/will readily identify with from daily use within their own lives?
Respectfully,
D

 

[HordHolm]

However, in striving to create a realistic and more "natural" interchange I let the "colloquial speech" forms have their run. My question is, though being careful not to overuse the style, is this something that many readers can/will readily identify with from daily use within their own lives?
Respectfully,
D

My own personal feeling is that readers don't notice specific things like speech patterns, contractions, etc unless they stand out as odd, not fitting with a character, or deliberately different from what has gone before. This is why, with a character who usually speaks 'street' shall we say, a sudden more formal tone attracts the reader's attention. Otherwise, the brain is largely moving on to the next thing, and seeing what it expects to see. Which is why editing carefully is such a task.

What I would say that I often find distracting, personally, is when an author tries to write an accent - this isn't the same as using contractions as a matter of course, but is when an author changes spelling to make the 'sound' of the words different. I then spend too much time concentrating on that, rather than on the story, or what is actually being said - I have to focus on what words the character is speaking, rather than the meaning of those words in the context.

My two cents. But remember, YMMV.

 

[DeMont]

My own personal feeling is that readers don't notice specific things like speech patterns, contractions, etc unless they stand out as odd, not fitting with a character, or deliberately different from what has gone before. This is why, with a character who usually speaks 'street' shall we say, a sudden more formal tone attracts the reader's attention. Otherwise, the brain is largely moving on to the next thing, and seeing what it expects to see. Which is why editing carefully is such a task.

What I would say that I often find distracting, personally, is when an author tries to write an accent - this isn't the same as using contractions as a matter of course, but is when an author changes spelling to make the 'sound' of the words different. I then spend too much time concentrating on that, rather than on the story, or what is actually being said - I have to focus on what words the character is speaking, rather than the meaning of those words in the context.

My two cents. But remember, YMMV.

@HordHolm,
Thank you dear colleague. I would like to, given your explanation of your point, present a sentence from a story (Not specifically for Lit, I don't think) that details a discussion between two friends, in plain English, set in a Cyberpunk dystopia.

“Far as I can see the only thing that bennie is good for is gettin’ the odd lace drop or braindance,” said Raoul.
I nodded sharply, “maybe someone needs to haze him, get a solo and get him outta here! Y’know man, zero time, drop him back in meatspace.”
Raoul chuckled, “Ain’t worth it, jus’ stay gato brother… maybe mister mushi’ll look in on HIS next braindance!”
We both laughed at that.

What would you need to make sense of that or does the content of the conversation provide enough clues?
Respectfully,
D.

 

[MelissaBaby]

@HordHolm and @MelissaBaby,
Good morning,
Given the points you put forward there is also, in my mind and writing, a place for further contractions and "nuance" based in "colloquial" or " everyday speak" (as I call it.)
As an example, I have recently written;

"The door opened and a slightly shorter, no less muscular, Japanese-American version of McGarrat walked in. He stuck out one powerful hand, “Chen, pleased t’meetcha. So, you’re gonna be the new graveyard guy huh?”

and

“In here newbie.” He opened the door and led us into a spacious waiting room. “Siddown, I’ll let th’ boss know you’re here.”


Now, naturally, the first should, at full length, have read,

The door opened and a slightly shorter, no less muscular, Japanese-American version of McGarrat walked in. He stuck out one powerful hand, “Chen, pleased to meet you. So, you’re going to be the new night-shift tester are you?" (full and proper form)

The latter,

"In here." He opened the door and led the way into a spacious waiting room. "Sit down, I'll let the boss know you're here." (Again full form, no contractions)

However, in striving to create a realistic and more "natural" interchange I let the "colloquial speech" forms have their run. My question is, though being careful not to overuse the style, is this something that many readers can/will readily identify with from daily use within their own lives?
Respectfully,
D

The forms you used, "pleased t'meetcha", "sid down" and similar constructions are, in my mind, familiar enough so that they will not distract readers.

For me, the naturalism of the speech itself is less important than the way in which speech reflects character. The important thing is that you have shown the reader a glimpse of the speaker's personality.

 

[MelissaBaby]

My own personal feeling is that readers don't notice specific things like speech patterns, contractions, etc unless they stand out as odd, not fitting with a character, or deliberately different from what has gone before. This is why, with a character who usually speaks 'street' shall we say, a sudden more formal tone attracts the reader's attention. Otherwise, the brain is largely moving on to the next thing, and seeing what it expects to see. Which is why editing carefully is such a task.

What I would say that I often find distracting, personally, is when an author tries to write an accent - this isn't the same as using contractions as a matter of course, but is when an author changes spelling to make the 'sound' of the words different. I then spend too much time concentrating on that, rather than on the story, or what is actually being said - I have to focus on what words the character is speaking, rather than the meaning of those words in the context.

My two cents. But remember, YMMV.

I have written a lot of stories set in Maine, which is well know for its distinctive accent and often eccentric colloquialisms. Exotic or unique locations require some level of local color to come off authentic to readers, particularly if you have a POV character who is not a native of the location. Naturally, a newcomer would notice differences in speech.

I have, for the most part, avoided trying to mimic accented pronunciation, in agreement with your position on that. Take the classic Maine affirmation, "Ayuh," for example. There is no way to spell it that conveys the way it is actually spoken.*

When all the characters are local, there isn't really any point to it. When there is an outsider present, I have occasionally used their perspective to note pronunciation. For example, in an early chapter of Mary and Alvin, Mary, a Californian, notices that native Mainer Alvin says "lobsta," not lobster. Once the reader has that information, there is no need to not use the standard spelling.

Colloquial terms and idioms are another matter. I have used them often, but either put them in a context where their meaning was obvious or structured the narrative so that they are explained. On occasion, I've left them unexplained, as it served the narrative for the POV character to be befuddled.


* Say AY and UH as clearly separate syllables, with the accent on the UH. Say it again, a half dozen times, each time faster than the time before. At about the fifth or sixth iteration, you'll be close to saying it like you're an Eastport lobsterman.

 

[AG31]

I have written a lot of stories set in Maine, which is well know for its distinctive accent and often eccentric colloquialisms. Exotic or unique locations require some level of local color to come off authentic to readers, particularly if you have a POV character who is not a native of the location. Naturally, a newcomer would notice differences in speech.

I have, for the most part, avoided trying to mimic accented pronunciation, in agreement with your position on that. Take the classic Maine affirmation, "Ayuh," for example. There is no way to spell it that conveys the way it is actually spoken.*

Interesting perspective. I spend a lot of time in Maine, and enjoy stories that include "Ayuh." I wonder if I would if I'd never heard it in real life. But in this day and age, haven't we heard most accents? I think I respond with some pleasure when people talk in regional accents in stories I read.

 

[LydaMarbanks]

What I would say that I often find distracting, personally, is when an author tries to write an accent - this isn't the same as using contractions as a matter of course, but is when an author changes spelling to make the 'sound' of the words different. I then spend too much time concentrating on that, rather than on the story, or what is actually being said - I have to focus on what words the character is speaking, rather than the meaning of those words in the context.

There's a difference between accent and dialect, although they're related. When I'm trying to write a character who speaks a certain way, I'll write their dialect, not their accent. That way the words are readable for those of us, like me, "hear" the words we read in our heads. But it also gets across the speech pattern.

An example:

"Were you looking for him?" [general American]
"Were you lookin' him?" [Eastern NC dialect]

There are also any number of resources on the web about words such as "spider/griddle/frying pan," "Coke/pop/soda," and so forth that you can use. And that's just in the United States! A person who learned British English, for example, would likely say "pants" instead of "underwear," or "whilst" instead of "while" in some circumstances. This isn't incorrect on either side! It's just dialect coming in.

(The one that always gets me about British English is the way it treats plural subjects. "The team have really improved their game this year" is correct British English, for example, but it just plain sounds wrong to my American ears.)

 

[MelissaBaby]

Interesting perspective. I spend a lot of time in Maine, and enjoy stories that include "Ayuh." I wonder if I would if I'd never heard it in real life. But in this day and age, haven't we heard most accents? I think I respond with some pleasure when people talk in regional accents in stories I read.

I think you can convey accent with subtle touches, but if you aren't careful you risk turning your character into a caricature.

Of course, some features of accents, like "ayuh" have become commonly recognized to some extend, but would a reader in the UK or Australia understand it?

Can anyone who isn't a Mainer translate "buhdada"?

 

[MelissaBaby]

There's a difference between accent and dialect, although they're related. When I'm trying to write a character who speaks a certain way, I'll write their dialect, not their accent. That way the words are readable for those of us, like me, "hear" the words we read in our heads. But it also gets across the speech pattern.

An example:

"Were you looking for him?" [general American]
"Were you lookin' him?" [Eastern NC dialect]

Isn't it fun to write dialogue when you know those quirks? My characters always eat supper, never dinner. They don't just go to the store, they go "down to the store". Things are wicked or cunnin' or perhaps a pisser. Some things are even wicked cunnin' pissers.

How can you not love that kind of stuff?

(My inner Mainer replies, "Jeezum Crow, it's hard tellin', not knowing' )

 

[HordHolm]

Isn't it fun to write dialogue when you know those quirks? My characters always eat supper, never dinner. They don't just go to the store, they go "down to the store". Things are wicked or cunnin' or perhaps a pisser. Some things are even wicked cunnin' pissers.

How can you not love that kind of stuff?

(My inner Mainer replies, "Jeezum Crow, it's hard tellin', not knowing' )

Slang is great, I love it. I do try to make any London slang I use (hopefully) intelligent to others, though I'm not sure that 'scrote' travelled very well.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Slang is great, I love it. I do try to make any London slang I use (hopefully) intelligent to others, though I'm not sure that 'scrote' travelled very well.

Rather than worry too much about readers who won't get it, I like to consider the delight of those who figure it out.

 

[AG31]

I think you can convey accent with subtle touches, but if you aren't careful you risk turning your character into a caricature.

Of course, some features of accents, like "ayuh" have become commonly recognized to some extend, but would a reader in the UK or Australia understand it?

Can anyone who isn't a Mainer translate "buhdada"?

Good points.

 

[AG31]

Of course, some features of accents, like "ayuh" have become commonly recognized to some extend, but would a reader in the UK or Australia understand it?

Yes, it's been a new experience for me to be in such a multi-national (mostly English speaking) environment.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Rather than worry too much about readers who won't get it, I like to consider the delight of those who figure it out.

I cringe when non-Australian writers attempt strine, because it disappeared as a jargon back in the seventies (Crocodile Dundee was never representative, it leaned in heavily on the clichés right from the start).

I suspect readers can figure out I'm not English or American from my writing, but I suspect it's the subtleties in my use of language rather than anything blatantly obvious. I rarely attempt a dialect; although several characters have quirks or favourite words, but that's more about the character than where they come from.

@AG31 might be able to comment on my "Australian-ness", if it even exists.

 

[AG31]

@AG31 might be able to comment on my "Australian-ness", if it even exists.

Kookaburra sits on the old gum tree-eee.....

 

[DeMont]

Slang is great, I love it. I do try to make any London slang I use (hopefully) intelligent to others, though I'm not sure that 'scrote' travelled very well.

@HordHolm,
I don't even think I'll try and guess what @MelissaBaby means by "buhdada" - it sounds extreme and obscene...!

For you I leave this little gem;
"Bloody 'ell, th' look on yer boat race mate," I said, "tell yer wot, I'll get 'er indoors on th' dog 'n' bone an' we'll meetcha down the frog and toad 'bout 'alf past eight, awright?"

Respec'fully, always gaffer,
D.

 

[StillStunned]

So, moving on from dialects and accents before this thread bogs down...

 

[Soixenta]

My contribution:

When I'm editing a story, I pay close attention to physical items and details. My new story, for instance, mentions a character's phone and earbuds, another character's hat and sunglasses, and the patchy grass in a glade.

In the editing phase, I make sure that none of those details are left hanging. The character wearing the sunglasses has to take them off, and preferably tuck them away somewhere before the sex starts. The character with the phone drops it on the patchy grass, and has to remember to pick it up before she leaves.

In the same way, if a side character makes an appearance, I try to give their role an end moment, or a call-back.

I believe that these details make the story more complete. The reader might not notice them, but I think they would if I left them out. I don't want anyone to think to themselves, "But hey, wasn't he wearing sunglasses? How can she what colour his eyes are?" Or: "What happened to the saxophone player?" If you don't "close" the details, the reader might wonder why you mentioned them in the first place.