Loving wives - WTF, or is it me or them?

[DrPope]

Not in the way that current "cuckolding" stories are, i.e., the typical "cuck chair" stuff on the softer end and up from there. Before, it was much more of a stag/vixen dynamic, where the hotwife was doing it as a thing to bring the husband and wife closer together, or at least as a way to excite both of them with the understanding that they'd reconnect later. To use a (poor) analogy, if earlier stuff had been mild bondage, newer stuff often strays well into CNC and sometimes straight up NC/R. Even the folks there for swinging/sharing/swapping level their hate at the newer "hard cuck" stories.

I think it started around 2005 with the ongoing (forever it seemed) hard cuck sagas of BobbiNobbi and XLeglover (both since run out of LW) but by far the biggest influence on LW readership was a influx around the same time of some VERY high quality authors all writing in the "Burn the bitch" genre I think of writers like Starstang06 ...then suddenly BTB became the highest score stories (they always were kind of but I don't consider DanielQSteele etc to be true BTB) and the "middle of the road" authors (think Ohio) became less visible. The "Cheating" genre got placed into two very opposing sides BTB and RAAC( Reconciliation at all costs) with no middle ground and the BTB tales morphed into weird secret agent CIA type things ....where bizarrely the most successful writers held court (Go figure THAT out) ..... between the Cheating, the Secret agents and the Hard Cucks the swingers (which frankly never were a bit part of LW) Sharers/Stag-Vixens (who used to be the mainstay) and the fence sitters all got pushed to the side. Now this is ONLY in scores ...the majority of actual stories posted are still in the milder end of the spectrum but they don't get the big views, comments,scores or 1 bombs. George Anderson has created another genre all by himself on top of this .... I liked it all better when it was alt.sex.stories or the Old BBS services like Rusty's where I think I actually enjoyied writing more. Loving Wives is a strange catergory ..... it's a minefield and the new DonnerBBQ style genre in E&V is probably a better fit for hotness for all the old stag vixen types anyway.

 

[MollyTanager]

ok I'm so sorry but what is hard cucking? Is it like the guy gets cucked and he's not into it?

 

[NoTalentHack]

ok I'm so sorry but what is hard cucking? Is it like the guy gets cucked and he's not into it?

Sort of? The character in the story usually doesn’t, but the person fantasizing about the story (reader and writer both) get off on that kind of humiliation/torment. It’s not my thing, so this is very much outsider looking in, but it’s a bit like non consent fantasies: something most of the people who get off on it would hate in real life, but which they find compelling to explore safely through fiction. I write a story, Kayfabe, (a bromance between a cuck and his wife’s bull) that was a bit tongue-in-cheek but which several people deeply into that kink reached out to tell me that I nailed it/helped them understand themselves better. If you’re looking for some insight into the psychology without much of the actual humiliation, you could do worse.

 

[MillieDynamite]

But some men like to be humiliated.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

ok I'm so sorry but what is hard cucking? Is it like the guy gets cucked and he's not into it?

Basically, instead of writing a story about a couple who enjoys power play and a shift in dynamics, it focuses on the feelings of humiliation, degradation, and straight up pain on the husband's part alone. They're basically stories of sadism (which isn't exactly a "kink").
Naturally, while there surely are people getting off on that stuff, the people who DON'T enjoy those themes get... rather disgusted. So, consequently, people started then writing stories where they focused on what THEY felt while reading it: Often violent revenge fantasies.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Humiliation is a kink, and an alarming number of people share it. Both men and women. A regular customer paid me to humiliate him back in the day. I found it quite distasteful to do so, but he was paying. I had others who weren't regulars that hired me to humiliate them. So, when they are humiliated, they are the flip side of the sadist, the masochist. And that's not even counting the pain freaks, the actual sadistic bastards, and such out there. Those are all kinks.

Basically, instead of writing a story about a couple who enjoys power play and a shift in dynamics, it focuses on the feelings of humiliation, degradation, and straight up pain on the husband's part alone. They're basically stories of sadism (which isn't exactly a "kink").
Naturally, while there surely are people getting off on that stuff, the people who DON'T enjoy those themes get... rather disgusted. So, consequently, people started then writing stories where they focused on what THEY felt while reading it: Often violent revenge fantasies.

 

[Lifestyle66]

ok I'm so sorry but what is hard cucking? Is it like the guy gets cucked and he's not into it?

From my understanding (at least for the moment), the "hard cuck" stories are not just about humiliation, but more like the wife sexually torturing her husband. I mean like BDSM-style emotionally BEATING the SHIT out of him.

But here we have the basic problem I find ... amazing/interesting/intriguing ... in that a group of "authors" (ie. writers attempting to convey a message via the written word) seem to use words with such nebulous definitions and can't settle on what the F-ing words really convey to another person's mind.

Hmmm...

But words apparently/supposedly "evolve" (which is why there's such a "failure to communicate" ('Cool Hand Luke').

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Humiliation is a kink, and an alarming number of people share it. Both men and women. A regular customer paid me to humiliate him back in the day. I found it quite distasteful to do so, but he was paying. I had others who weren't regulars that hired me to humiliate them. So, when they are humiliated, they are the flip side of the sadist, the masochist. And that's not even counting the pain freaks, the actual sadistic bastards, and such out there. Those are all kinks.

I didn't say that humiliation isn't a kink. I said that sadism isn't one. It's a mental disorder. Just like Masochism.

 

[Escierto]

Is it you or them? Of course, it's them.

 

[Actingup]

I've had mixed results in LW (one story really well received, others less so), but I do think it's important to focus on that trade off. if you were able to lop off the bottom third of your votes/comments, you would find a really engaged and generally thoughtful community still remains. And some of the comments (positive and negative) are absolutely priceless. In your example, you've got the opportunity to think about 'how could I have engaged the audience better with my difficult theme?'... it's brutal but character-building....

 

[lovecraft68]

Overwhelming evidence points to it being a faction of them which over time has become the largest, loudest, and nastiest. They have decided they, not the author, sane reader, or the site itself, knows what stories belong there and will attack everything else. The only way to get a decent score there is portraying the man as a noble victim and the woman as evil. That, and to have to write so carefully and kiss so much ass, you're not writing, you're just pandering to the lowest denominator there, not to get abused.

Or, you can write what you want, take a beating, but feel good about the handful of decent comments you'll get from people who actually know and support what the category is, and aren't such little and insecure men that a story can send them into a frothing impotent rage.

There are 3 defenders of the category in this forum, everyone else knows it's an incel/moralist/woman hating riddled hellscape.

So, yeah, its not you, its them.

ETA, the category seems to be about 90% male in its readership, or at least the part that comments. Women tend not to be that childish and hateful, at least in the realm of erotic stories.

 

[Actingup]

Overwhelming evidence points to it being a faction of them which over time has become the largest, loudest, and nastiest. They have decided they, not the author, sane reader, or the site itself, knows what stories belong there and will attack everything else. The only way to get a decent score there is portraying the man as a noble victim and the woman as evil. That, and to have to write so carefully and kiss so much ass, you're not writing, you're just pandering to the lowest denominator there, not to get abused.

Or, you can write what you want, take a beating, but feel good about the handful of decent comments you'll get from people who actually know and support what the category is, and aren't such little and insecure men that a story can send them into a frothing impotent rage.

There are 3 defenders of the category in this forum, everyone else knows it's an incel/moralist/woman hating riddled hellscape.

So, yeah, its not you, its them.

ETA, the category seems to be about 90% male in its readership, or at least the part that comments. Women tend not to be that childish and hateful, at least in the realm of erotic stories.

You are way more experienced than me in all of this, but the reason for my slight optimism about LW is that I managed to get one story up where the woman was the righteous victim of a controlling, philandering husband and took her bloody revenge while keeping her hands clean, and much to my surprise it was rated highly, even though there were the expected comments about 'I could never trust her', which were then responded to by other readers. So I feel that it is possible (but difficult) to subvert the format slightly by appealing to the readers' sense of justice regardless of the gender of the victim, although my other attempts have been less successful! There definitely seems to be a hatred from some of anything that looks like cuckold behaviour or even consensual swapping.

 

[gunhilltrain]

That's... a disturbing mental image.

I assume he means one he's already used, not one right out of the box. Usually male insults are more like "blow me," and cut out unnecessary steps.

 

[LetsMisBehave]

Thank you all for the comments.
NoTalentHack, I have read and enjoyed your essay on Loving Wives, and it does explain some of the hypersensitivity.
I agree with Lovecraft68, and I believe you, that anyone who writes stories in that category has to have a thick skin. Some of the comments are hilarious, mind you.
It was just that I wasn't intending to wind people up with this story and didn't understand why this pissed people off in a way my other stories in this category didn't. While I don't enjoy humiliation stories and can't write them without feeling soiled, this was meant to be a story about a woman who had been lying to herself for years and was alienating her friends unnecessarily. The fiance was meant to be a fundamentally decent man who was frightened by the fact that he wasn't as good a man as he wanted to be.
DrPope. I do have a problem in that about 90% of my stories have overlapping characters, which means that there is too much exposition needed in most of them. I think there is something to be said for showing people can honestly perceive the same events differently, but it can take the reader out of the story. Once I have finished the follow-up to this story I will revert to my stand-alone series where the loving wife wants, despite the suspicions of the readers, to be a loving wife if her husband can only stop feeling guilty about sex. I will resist the temptation to have Amber being a charity girl in Southpool.
Lifestyle66 - I liked the Cool Hand Luke quote, especially since I used it a few days ago on a fanfiction website. I will be lucky to get more than 50 views for the 10th chapter in a series which explores serious themes.

 

[DrPope]

There are 3 defenders of the category in this forum, everyone else knows it's an incel/moralist/woman hating riddled hellscape.

It's just a loud minority ..... but within them comes the most entertaining comments in the history of Lit

 

[Lifestyle66]

...

There are 3 defenders of the category in this forum, everyone else knows it's an incel/moralist/woman hating riddled hellscape.

...

YOU are the greatest defender of maintaining the Loving Wives category as it currently is.

Your repeated rants in every thread that LW is an incel/moralist/woman hating riddled hellscape and warnings to new authors to "Don't Go There" are your attempts to keep all new stories there as "Burn the Bitch".

Unless more authors post stories of "extra-marital fun, sharing," and 'happily ever after' there, you are merely encouraging the status quo.

Did you even READ the OP's story to provide any constructive feedback as to why anyone might not like it? Try READING the OP's story in LW and provide objective feedback. Tell us why the story SHOULD be rated a 4 or 5.

Try to not be so negative all the time.

 

[lc69hunter]

Loving Wives is about stories featuring extramarital fun. However, over the years, people somehow started dumping all their fetish stories in there, featuring cuckold and humiliation themes. Readers don't appreciate it and started heavily downvoting those themes, getting more and more hostile towards cheating in general, causing authors, who fail to understand basic human behavior, to cry and moan about ungrateful and toxic males in the comment sections.

You make one good point about the humiliation crap belonging in Fetish, because in that case there is no loving wife. However, you have gone off the rails on the rest of it. The category says extramarital fun. However, the Taliban wannabes who have taken over the category trash 90% of the stories published in that vein, and that your "basic human nature" assumes that that is everyone's. The bane of that category are the anonymous trolls. I categorize them into one of three categories. 1. They have been cheated on and are bitter. 2. They are sexually insecure males hiding behind a macho image. 3. They are Taliban wannabes. I understand the first category. The rest? No

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

You make one good point about the humiliation crap belonging in Fetish, because in that case there is no loving wife. However, you have gone off the rails on the rest of it. The category says extramarital fun. However, the Taliban wannabes who have taken over the category trash 90% of the stories published in that vein, and that your "basic human nature" assumes that that is everyone's. The bane of that category are the anonymous trolls. I categorize them into one of three categories. 1. They have been cheated on and are bitter. 2. They are sexually insecure males hiding behind a macho image. 3. They are Taliban wannabes. I understand the first category. The rest? No

Yeah, see, here's the deal. Just today, there was a story posted in LW about a husband who enjoys sharing his wife. It not only tells readers how much the husband gets turned on by seeing his wife sexting and flirting with other men, it also gives detailed descriptions of how the wife enjoys herself with the man before her husband gets to join in.

That story might not have a red H, but the rating is currently bordering on a 4 (and it's really not that well written. Wall of text, no dialogue, a little bit of rambling, if you ask me). So, it certainly isn't getting one-bombed. The comments range from objective criticism to positive encouragement, and even pleading for more.

Where are all the incels at? Where are the sexually insecure males? Where are the "Taliban wannabes"?

Fact is, and we see proof of it regularly, you CAN post stories about extramarital fun in the category that claims to be about extramarital fun, and NOT get shat on. As hard as it may be to admit that your particular brand of stories isn't well received for legitimate reasons, it's not always everyone else who's evil and out of touch with reality.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Yeah, see, here's the deal. Just today, there was a story posted in LW about a husband who enjoys sharing his wife. It not only tells readers how much the husband gets turned on by seeing his wife sexting and flirting with other men, it also gives detailed descriptions of how the wife enjoys herself with the man before her husband gets to join in.

That story might not have a red H, but the rating is currently bordering on a 4 (and it's really not that well written. Wall of text, no dialogue, a little bit of rambling, if you ask me). So, it certainly isn't getting one-bombed. The comments range from objective criticism to positive encouragement to deliver more.

Where are all the incels at? Where are the sexually insecure males? Where are the "Taliban wannabes"?

Fact is, and we see proof of it regularly, you CAN post stories about extramarital fun in the category that claims to be about extramarital fun, and NOT get shat on. As hard as it may be to admit that your particular brand of stories isn't well received for legitimate reasons, it's not always everyone else who's evil and out of touch with reality.

There is this wonderfully snarky comment, though:

"with him striping her completely"

Did she look like a Zebra?

 

[Lifestyle66]

...

That story might not have a red H, but the rating is currently bordering on a 4 (and it's really not that well written. Wall of text, no dialogue, a little bit of rambling, if you ask me). So, it certainly isn't getting one-bombed. The comments range from objective criticism to positive encouragement to deliver more.

Where are all the incels at? Where are the sexually insecure males? Where are the "Taliban wannabes"?

Fact is, and we see proof of it regularly, you CAN post stories about extramarital fun in the category that claims to be about extramarital fun, and NOT get shat on. As hard as it may be to admit that your particular brand of stories isn't well received for legitimate reasons, it's not always everyone else who's evil and out of touch with reality.

I've noticed lately that the tone and number of negative comments in LW has been changing toward those fun sharing stories. There are not as many hateful comments, and the ratings are overall climbing. The audience in LW is changing.

There will always be some who are overly triggered by a story and lash out. But they are the exception, and NOT the majority of the readers there.

And I don't "defend" the trolls and haters. I defend anyone's right to be that which their life and circumstances have made them to be.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I published a story earlier today called The Break-up in Loving Wives. I knew and accepted the trade-off—more views, more favourites against one bombing. Hell, in twelve hours, it has had more views than 80% of my stories here. I just wasn't expecting this story to be bombed more than any other story I have written.
Although it may err on the morally ambivalent side, I think it is a good story. I think it is clear that the cheating girlfriend is self-destructing and antagonising her friends. I would be grateful for feedback on (a) what in the story wound up readers and (b) where would have been a better place to put it. Or indeed (c), is it just crap.
Alternatively, is it just that Loving Wives has more self-appointed gatekeepers about what is acceptable than it did a year ago?
By the way, two of my best-rated and worst-rated stories are liked stories in mature and loving wives (Grampa's Last Hurrah and Losing Inhibitions). Perhaps unsurprisingly, the worst-rated and most-read two are in Loving Wives and the best-rated and least-read in Mature. I have written two-thirds of the next stories in both series, but I have to resist the temptation to wind up those who expect the young and honourable wife to betray the older husband.
I must add that I am not complaining because I knew that here be dragons, but I am honestly puzzled.

Okay, I finally finished reading "The Breakup", and I must say that took a lot of work on my part.

As I said earlier, you summarized the story through to the end in the very beginning they're splitting up because she's a slut and cheated on him. It seems this is one part of a multi-part series, and yet there's no indication that I should have read other stories prior to this. If it's a chapter, identify it as a chapter ## in the title. If it's a stand-alone story, then I expect all details needed to understand it to be written within the one story. You repeatedly referred to other events such as Monday, November, Saturday, last Friday, The Three Witches, Dapper Dan, and Coketown, without giving me any clear understanding of them in context. The timeline is jumping around too much. And you injected some pending scheme by Amber to turn Jill into ... What?... a slut or whore? She already is (yes, she's taken money for sex)! Also, at one point, you have "Jill" returning and putting her hand on "Jill's" shoulder. And I wasn't sure by the end if Jill was a student, or a student of Alan's or not, or what her status was in regards to school or whatever. EDIT: Also, it wasn't clear whether she was suspended from school over a scandal or whether there was some change to classes for whatever reason as alluded to near the beginning. I didn't understand any of that.

I rated it a 3, and honestly, with the difficulty I had when reading it, IMO that's being generous. So, I'm not puzzled by the low rating the story has received so far.

 

[Britva415]

From my understanding, it was always about cuckolding

I wonder how far back the description goes. I imagine the description has been there since the beginning, and the category became about cuckolding and the rest later, in spite of the description.

 

[Britva415]

consequently, people started then writing stories where they focused on what THEY felt while reading it: Often violent revenge fantasies

I'm not sure this is necessarily a consequence of cuck stories generating those feelings.

 

[Britva415]

Did she look like a Zebra?

Was she black?

 

[M_K_Babalon]

YOU are the greatest defender of maintaining the Loving Wives category as it currently is.

Your repeated rants in every thread that LW is an incel/moralist/woman hating riddled hellscape and warnings to new authors to "Don't Go There" are your attempts to keep all new stories there as "Burn the Bitch".

Unless more authors post stories of "extra-marital fun, sharing," and 'happily ever after' there, you are merely encouraging the status quo.

Did you even READ the OP's story to provide any constructive feedback as to why anyone might not like it? Try READING the OP's story in LW and provide objective feedback. Tell us why the story SHOULD be rated a 4 or 5.

Try to not be so negative all the time.

I agree with him, for the most part, but you're right, if more people wrote less btb, eventually shit would change.