Would love some advise on writing as a non-native English writer

[InWINcible]

I have been reading stories on Lit for almost two years now. I really like the critical community here and needed some advise.
I wanted to write a story for myself, catering my taste where the characters are somewhat similar to ones I have loved during this reading journey. I was probably not going to upload it.

Reading here, I have acquired certain taste in stories. On my first day of writing, I wrote a sizable bit and a day later scraped them 'cause I didn't like the way the characters were interacting with each other. English being my third language the writing felt..... too formal, boring? IDK. I am my worst critique (or is it best?). So I gave up on writing. Recently, I read a story where I found a character I want to add to my plot. This motivated me to start again.

Sorry for this whole ass pointless backstory, I just want some advises on writing stories in which character interactions are not too formal.
Thank you in advance to everyone who give advises.

 

[SyleusSnow]

Well, to make dialog less formal, use contractions: "I'm" instead of "I am", "you're" instead of "you are", and so on.

Use sentence fragments often (but not all the time), instead of always using full sentences. Example: "Hungry?" instead of "Are you hungry?"

Use colloquial expressions if they fit the character: "Hey" "Naw" "Gonna"

And in real life, people speak to each other in short back-and-forth exchanges. Many writers have their characters speaking in long diatribes instead of short exchanges. People also do things during conversations ... rub their neck when thinking, cross their arms, fiddle with a pen, pout, sigh, roll their eyes.

And it's perfectly fine for characters to communicate silently with expressions and gestures.

So:

"Hey. Hungry?", said Bob, rubbing sleep from his eyes.

Alice yawned. "Naw, I'm good. I gotta go."

"Sure? I make wicked pancakes. And I got tons of real maple syrup."

Alice narrowed her eyes, noticing Bob's naughty smile. She knew it wasn't just pancakes he wanted to pour syrup on.

 

[InWINcible]

@SyleusSnow Thank you for this excellent explanation. I'll definitely try keeping these in mind.

 

[HectorBidon]

I agree with SyleusSnow that it's important to have the characters speak the way they would in real life. Sometimes I think about it as if I'm writing dialog for a movie script. Can I imagine characters speaking the lines on the screen? Does it sound natural or clunky? Would I find the scene too boring, too stilted, too confusing?

 

[Pabiporffor]

SyleusSnow says it perfectly.
One thing people often struggle with when it comes to second languages is the natives often have worse grammar than the learner. When you learn a foreign language a lot of emphasis is put on grammar, far more than is taught to the natives who are expected to just pick it up naturally. Throw in regional dialects on top and suddenly everything goes to pot.

If you're struggling with natural relaxed speech and colloquialisms why not make your characters more upper-class as their English is more standard?

 

[HordHolm]

Get a native speaking editor.

My wife's English is so good she wrote her 600 page PhD thesis in English (and she teaches English, too), but she still got me in to edit/correct, and I found mistakes hiding away here and there. There's no shame in it - even if you're writing in your native tongue you are likely to miss an error or two, and in a foreign language you may well use expressions out of context, or miss an odd bit of weird syntax. Of course, finding a volunteer editor isn't necessarily easy, but I would really recommend at least trying.

 

[Bartleby73]

you could also write in your native language. There are quite a few languages on offer. If yours is one of them then you can write in your own language.

I am quite torn myself as of if I should keep on writing in English or in German, my native tongue. I find German more sexy but I have lived in Australia for such a ling time now that some German words are not in my active memory. I also think that with English I can reach a wider audience.

I think I will try to write a story in German and decide then. Write in the language you are most comfortable with.

 

[LargoKitt]

I find the most formality in English written by South Asians and by Slavic people, for different reasons.

My wife was raised in South Asia and there people are taught 'English To Impress'. So, instead of saying, "I disagree with you." Or even "I don't like what you said," they will think it's better to say. "In my humble opininion, under these circumstances, I have found that your logical stance is not something with which I can agree easily." Don't do that. In the U.S. we like advertising slogans. Be as direct as possible. Slavic people often seem to be speaking 'in the third person', as though they were watching themselves. "My dear wife, you have given me reason to doubt your opinion. Can you say how your feeling for me has changed?" Don't do that. have your characters say what they feel from the heart. "Honey, what's the matter? Why are you so cold?" When you read collect American expressions. They mean something different than the words. Same, but different in the UK, Australia, and India. Good luck.

 

[TheLobster]

From another writer for whom English is a second language, the best advice I can give is to read a metric crapton of properly written fiction. It doesn't have to be literary masterpieces; in fact, for basics such as proper use of tenses and informal speech you can just look at the works of other authors who post in this forum.

At some point, you probably want to at least skim through a manual of style (like the Chicago one, for example). There are certain odd punctuation rules, particularly around dialogue, that you just have to internalize. Seriously, google "dialogue punctuation" or something, because the rules vary between languages a lot. There are even variations between American and British English, which also means you have to pick one of these dialects to write in. American is by far the more popular one, as the bulk of the audience here is from the States.

Further advice would largely depend on what your general proficiency level in English is. Based on your post, it's pretty clear that you'd need an editor to sort out spelling and grammar mistakes, so I'd assume it's not very high. This is not necessarily a dealbreaker but you have to avoid trying to write above your station.

Keep your prose simple and dynamic. If your native language is one of those highly contextual ones that ask you to lean on grammatical cases / gender / etc. to avoid repetitions, do note that English is not like that at all. You can open five sentences in a row with "He <verb>" and no one will bat an eye. Indeed, this is partly how you make your prose feel dynamic.

There's a lot more that could be said about writing narrative fiction in English, of course. I'm actually pondering if I should maybe pen a "quick" How-To with some of my own observations and experiences but I don't know how big an audience it would garner. From what I've seen so far, ESL writers are a very small minority here -- unless, of course, they hide so well that no one recognizes them

 

[intim8]

I have been reading stories on Lit for almost two years now. I really like the critical community here and needed some advise.
I wanted to write a story for myself, catering my taste where the characters are somewhat similar to ones I have loved during this reading journey. I was probably not going to upload it.

Reading here, I have acquired certain taste in stories. On my first day of writing, I wrote a sizable bit and a day later scraped them 'cause I didn't like the way the characters were interacting with each other. English being my third language the writing felt..... too formal, boring? IDK. I am my worst critique (or is it best?). So I gave up on writing. Recently, I read a story where I found a character I want to add to my plot. This motivated me to start again.

Sorry for this whole ass pointless backstory, I just want some advises on writing stories in which character interactions are not too formal.
Thank you in advance to everyone who give advises.

There's nothing wrong with having your story involve characters rhat are in the same boat, so their English is accented, mildly incorrect, etc. Even inaapropriately formal. Then you can focus on your narration being more "correct".

 

[InWINcible]

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I really appreciate you guys.

 

[InWINcible]

@LargoKitt
You are spot on. I am south asian and I write conversations in a formal way. Before this I couldn't point out what exactly was wrong with my writing.
And the best way I think I can improve is by reading more non-fiction and contemporary books.

 

[Agent0069]

As a fellow non-native English author… I’d say that I don’t care and just write however I can. So far it’s been working, more or less.

Oh, and, I guess, run texts through free tier of grammarly to fix basic spelling errors, look up dictionaries for synonyms to avoid repeated words.

But the point still stands: you won’t be able to write as well as native with a major in linguistics anyway, so try to win with creativity and storytelling, instead of beating yourself over every mistake.

 

[Mogrem]

At some point, you probably want to at least skim through a manual of style (like the Chicago one, for example). There are certain odd punctuation rules, particularly around dialogue, that you just have to internalize. Seriously, google "dialogue punctuation" or something, because the rules vary between languages a lot. There are even variations between American and British English, which also means you have to pick one of these dialects to write in. American is by far the more popular one, as the bulk of the audience here is from the States.

As @InWINcible is in Australia you might want to pick British/Australian grammar and specifically Australian dialect. Only because its really helpful to go from real life, whereas trying to work against the grammar that you are absorbing all around you makes for another hurdle. (Also Americans can understand Australians. Just.)

Get out there with a notebook/mobile and discretely note down amusing or intense or just interesting exchanges as you are out and about. Cafes, bars, train stations. That would be my advice. Failing that, as @TheLobster says above, read books written by other people who have done that!

 

[VallesMarineris]

I just want some advises on writing stories in which character interactions are not too formal.

I suggest dipping into (you don't need to read the whole thing) Andy Warhol's novel, a, a Novel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A,_A_Novel

Yes, Warhol is the author of a published novel. No, he didn't actually write it. He had someone follow a colleague and him around New York City for a day or so and record everything they said (on a tape recorder, it was the 60s). Then he hired people to type it all up and had it published.

It's all dialogue, all very raw. They kept in everything, hems and haws, broken sentences, garbled speech, even the typists' typos. It's actually a cool piece of art, a pure slice of life.

But:

-- Reading even a few pages will get you into the flow of American English speech, which is way more disjoint and chaotic than most people realize.

-- You'll see that fictional dialogue shouldn't actually duplicate IRL dialogue. You want to put in just enough to give it the feel of real dialogue.

I still sometimes take a few minutes to do some pages of A and get into the rhythm before I start writing.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

@LargoKitt
You are spot on. I am south asian and I write conversations in a formal way. Before this I couldn't point out what exactly was wrong with my writing.
And the best way I think I can improve is by reading more non-fiction and contemporary books.

I've always figured non-english languages are more structured, and learning english is taught how it should be, but it ain't really used like that once you put it to use with other english speakers, and it depends on what english you learned and who you're using it around.

Just watch some american media.

 

[LargoKitt]

@LargoKitt
You are spot on. I am south asian and I write conversations in a formal way. Before this I couldn't point out what exactly was wrong with my writing.
And the best way I think I can improve is by reading more non-fiction and contemporary books.

InWINcible, For many years I taught English as a second language. Usually I didn't get students from India or Pakistan or Sri Lanka. They thought they already spoke English just fine, and they were right. Think about it, more people speak English like a Gujarati or a Bengali than like an America. But it helps to know American idioms when doing jobs in the US. Today I was on the phone with someone I would place in Bangalore who called himself 'Mike'. Okay, and please call me Pradyeep. But seriously, if you you want to write spicy stories why not set them in South Asia, or the South Asian community in the US. Fin to throw in a 'yar' or a 'bohot' 'or 'acha' or a 'dil'. And it's good if people speak with the rhythms they do 'back home.' Above all, have fun.