The Red H Debate (yeah, i know, AGAIN)

[Mastered_again]

To be honest, and I speak as a sensitive little flower who frets about low ratings, I'd rather have actual comments than votes; they're something of substance that has taken more time to post than a simple click. Be it good, bad or indifferent, it's a fragment of thought given as acknowledgement for your time and effort.

That said, red Hs exist and as long as they do, I'm going to covet the crap out of them.

Couldn't have said it better. Getting someone's thoughts (and hopefully constructive, not necessarily positive) is what I covet most.
Comments have been tough to come by, so having all nine installments of my one work getting the scarlet letter is a damned nice participation trophy.

Now, cue the trolls

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't doubt you, but here's my point. "It works for me" is not a good argument for what the Site should do. For every author who can say subjectively "It works for me" there will be others who say "It screws me over."

The important question is how the system works for authors, readers, and the Site generally. That's what should guide the Site.

Generally speaking, when you go look at someone who shouts really loudly, "The scoring system screws me over," there's a pretty obvious reason for the scores they're getting.

It's not a universal rule, but it's one of those, "Maybe you should start paying attention to what those jokers are saying/scoring," things, because you know what, they might be right. Just sayin'.

 

[FifthEstate]

The red H is NOT an indication of how good your story is. It's an indication of how well people liked it. It's a popularity contest. A story with a red H is not necessarily well written. It doesn't necessarily have a sound plot. It doesn't necessarily have literary value. The red H on lit serves the exact same purpose as the "top seller" marking on Amazon. It shows readers what is popular.

And if more people vote in the I/T category, then this is because more people are looking for such stories, meaning that those stories are more popular.

Going by your logic, we'd have to lower the score requirement for a red H in LW, because there are fewer people liking Cheating and Hotwife stories, leading to well-written work receiving shit scores.

Wait…why is it popular if it’s not good? Defining good is in the mind of the reader. Maybe it’s good to some readers for stroke quality. Maybe to some it’s good because it makes them cry. To others, they may find it to be a can’t put down page-turner.

But at the end of the day the reader liked it and gave it a good score. WTF is a popularity contest in this discussion anyway?

I don’t write in I/T, but if I did and wrote a mom/son story, I know it would have to be good to earn a red-H. It simply wouldn’t achieve it just by the popularity of the category. That theory applies to every genre on LitE except LW. Good stories die there for reasons we all know…

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Whether a story is hot or not is subjective and varies from one reader to another. My idea of a good story is something someone else thinks sucks and...we're both entitled to feel as we do,

The "H" here is not meant to be hot necessarily in the sense of "Damn, that was hot!" but in the sense of having a high score which makes it Hot in the same way a team on a 10 game winning streak is hot. It represents a certain benchmark score. the erotic hotness of it...go back to my first point.

I'm tired of hearing how it should be dropped to a four or eliminated completely because that's just more watered down, everyone gets a participation award BS that this society pushes. People used to be competitive, they used to set goals, they used to want to attain something, to prove something.

Now its "wahhhh" they have something I don't and I want it to, but I don't want to earn it, so...if I can't have it, neither can they.

Someone in this thread mentioned getting rid of negative votes. Yay, everyone gets a 5!! Good job getting up today, everyone!

People with no fire to excel and rise above just want everyone to be down on their level because it makes them feel better about themselves.

That's what this really comes down to.

To me, the red H is sort of like the "best-seller" list compiled by the entities such as the New York Times.

Are the books on that list the best written among all of the material currently in the marketplace? Not in all cases, no. They are the ones raking in the sales, much like a red H story here rakes in the higher votes. Both are a measure of perceived value to the consumer over literary quality.

The red H is not an invalid metric to measure for a site that I think everyone agrees exists for the purpose of attracting readers over writers.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Wait…why is it popular if it’s not good? Defining good is in the mind of the reader. Maybe it’s good to some readers for stroke quality. Maybe to some it’s good because it makes them cry. To others, they may find it to be a can’t put down page-turner.

But at the end of the day the reader liked it and gave it a good score. WTF is a popularity contest in this discussion anyway?

I don’t write in I/T, but if I did and wrote a mom/son story, I know it would have to be good to earn a red-H. It simply wouldn’t achieve it just by the popularity of the category. That theory applies to every genre on LitE except LW. Good stories die there for reasons we all know…

And right there, with the very last sentence, you answered your own question.

You can write a story that's engaging, with a sound plot, featuring well-developed characters, and then have it checked by editors to make sure the entire thing is flawless in regards to spelling and grammar... to then have it die with a < 2 rating because it's about cuckolding. Because the topic you wrote your literary masterpiece about is disliked.

THAT'S what I mean by "popularity contest".

Go, check the I/T category. You can post typo-riddled texts (I'm refusing to call some of these submissions "stories") in fantasy grammar. Low-effort, one-page, plotless masturbation fantasies I'd normally expect to be posted on r/incestconfessions or some crap, and it'll receive a rating of over 4 on here. For no other reason than people liking the theme, not the story itself.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

THAT'S what I mean by "popularity contest"

Consider the "investment" that a reader makes in a story as similar to them putting hard money down to buy it. In some cases here, the investment is the physical stimulation of certain body parts, in other cases, it might be strictly cerebral.

In either case, do they receive a perceived "value" for their investment? Did they get off reading it, or achieve some emotional fulfillment from the experience? Receiving a perceived return on their investment of time to read a story is what drives scores, just as it does with the sales of books.

I won't argue that catering to specific kinks here will increase audience share, and if the target audience tends to share a common perception of what constitutes value in a story, then that will be reflected in higher scores for often inferior works. The same is true in mainstream literature with examples such as 50 Shades becoming a best selling series while being clearly undeserving of any critical praise.

 

[lovecraft68]

To me, the red H is sort of like the "best-seller" list compiled by the entities such as the New York Times.

Are the books on that list the best written among all of the material currently in the marketplace? Not in all cases, no. They are the ones raking in the sales, much like a red H story here rakes in the higher votes. Both are a measure of perceived value to the consumer over literary quality.

The red H is not an invalid metric to measure for a site that I think everyone agrees exists for the purpose of attracting readers over writers.

I don't have an issue with it being a metric, and as a reward here because the way we get paid is stats and a Red H falls under that. My only issue is that people need not obsess about it because every thing here is so subjective and also, many readers can squick easily. You can have a reader loving 5 pages of your 6 page story but then if there's a sex act, or hell, a sentence, that takes them out of it...there goes the five vote.

So it just has to be taken in perspective. Its great to have one, but its not the be all end all here.

I wonder how people who would like to see it gone-and there's some who don't like the voting either, that people are allowed to vote anything below a 5, would take it if this entire site had no H's no scores, no top lists, no anything to differentiate a story, and all we had were tens of thousands of stories separated only by category. How would readers choose? If people think they don't get as much attention as they'd like now, imagine if this entire place was just one huge ass story list, all of us with equal chances to....not get read

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I don't have an issue with it being a metric, and as a reward here because the way we get paid is stats and a Red H falls under that. My only issue is that people need not obsess about it because every thing here is so subjective and also, many readers can squick easily. You can have a reader loving 5 pages of your 6 page story but then if there's a sex act, or hell, a sentence, that takes them out of it...there goes the five vote.

So it just has to be taken in perspective. Its great to have one, but its not the be all end all here.

I wonder how people who would like to see it gone-and there's some who don't like the voting either, that people are allowed to vote anything below a 5, would take it if this entire site had no H's no scores, no top lists, no anything to differentiate a story, and all we had were tens of thousands of stories separated only by category. How would readers choose? If people think they don't get as much attention as they'd like now, imagine if this entire place was just one huge ass story list, all of us with equal chances to....not get read

I don't have an issue with it either and view it as only one of multiple metrics that reflect on the value that readers derive from my stories here. Positive feedback certainly falls into the category of a metric of value, and so do favorites and followers to a degree.

I have never had the same story published on Literotica and another site where there was any significant difference in the reception of readers. The scoring and feedback systems might differ, but the end results of readers liking or not liking the story have always been comparable. I question whether others posting on multiple sites would see something different than I do.

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't have an issue with it either and view it as only one of multiple metrics that reflect on the value that readers derive from my stories here. Positive feedback certainly falls into the category of a metric of value, and so do favorites and followers to a degree.

I have never had the same story published on Literotica and another site where there was any significant difference in the reception of readers. The scoring and feedback systems might differ, but the end results of readers liking or not liking the story have always been comparable. I question whether others posting on multiple sites would see something different than I do.

Other than the market, I don't post anywhere else, so I'll take your word for it on common reception.

I would hazard to think that any type of hot wife story might be better on some other sites because they're a bit less wild west than lit and may not have the trolling they have here in LW

 

[MelissaBaby]

I've had stories bombed as badly as anyone else. Queen of the Roller Derby hit 100 votes with a score of 4.98 and took over the number one spot on the all time list. We are looking at 97 or 98 five star votes out of the first hundred.

In the next ten votes, at least 6 were 1-bombs. In a matter of minutes.So, I got one day in the top spot, then knocked down to somewhere in the thirties. The difference between #1 and #37 is thousands of new readers.

On the other hand, the story is over 52k words long, and it got a half a dozen five votes within the first half hour that it was online. Those are most likely followers who would 5 star my grocery list if I posted it, and gave me those stars before they ever read the story.

We all knew the rules when we sent in our first stories. Or, at least we should have. So much of this discussion seems like a batter striking out, then asking "How come we can't get five strikes?" instead of thinking, "How can I improve my swing?"

I get it. I'm not happy when I get one bombed, but I have learned that the game isn't going to change to make me happy.

 

[RejectReality]

I see entirely too much positive potential in ditching the H. Steadily eroding that attitude about 5 or nothing is one of them. That's reinforced by the H. Get rid of it, and you remove a massive source of anxiety arising every time a 4 ticks someone's score down by .01

Unlike so many other suggestions, it also makes the job of actual trolls harder. The H is an incredibly effective target to attack. Eliminating it forces them to take more drastic measures to achieve the same level of emotional damage, which results in a greater possibility of detecting the patterns of their behavior.

The sticking point is readers, who probably want the easy button. I believe they're doing themselves a huge disservice, which I think that would become apparent in short order if the H was removed. They'd piss and moan until they realized the catalog suddenly balloons in size with all these awesome 4.4 stories they never paid the slightest attention to.

I have seen a big difference between stories that dipped just below H level and the reception of the same stories on sites without the bling. I'm talking about kinks that are more or less universally accepted and have large readerships like Milf as well. If something dips below 4.5 here on day one, it falls off a cliff, where it keeps on chugging right along elsewhere. I've had a couple that were right on the line years ago on day one. The spikes and troughs in all the other numbers directly correlated with the appearance and disappearance of the H, while a simultaneous release on two other sites showed steady performance.

 

[lovecraft68]

I see entirely too much positive potential in ditching the H. Steadily eroding that attitude about 5 or nothing is one of them. That's reinforced by the H. Get rid of it, and you remove a massive source of anxiety arising every time a 4 ticks someone's score down by .01

Unlike so many other suggestions, it also makes the job of actual trolls harder. The H is an incredibly effective target to attack. Eliminating it forces them to take more drastic measures to achieve the same level of emotional damage, which results in a greater possibility of detecting the patterns of their behavior.

The sticking point is readers, who probably want the easy button. I believe they're doing themselves a huge disservice, which I think that would become apparent in short order if the H was removed. They'd piss and moan until they realized the catalog suddenly balloons in size with all these awesome 4.4 stories they never paid the slightest attention to.

I have seen a big difference between stories that dipped just below H level and the reception of the same stories on sites without the bling. I'm talking about kinks that are more or less universally accepted and have large readerships like Milf as well. If something dips below 4.5 here on day one, it falls off a cliff, where it keeps on chugging right along elsewhere. I've had a couple that were right on the line years ago on day one. The spikes and troughs in all the other numbers directly correlated with the appearance and disappearance of the H, while a simultaneous release on two other sites showed steady performance.

When I suggested dropping anon, you made a point that trolls will always troll. Now you think because there's no Red H, they'll stop?

Convenient.

High scores will still be targeted especially on top lists(or are they going away too?) the H makes it easier because its easily visible, but like you said, trolls have no issue doing whatever they need to to bomb someone because H or not, they still want to piss an author off by lowering their score.

But let's say its not there. The authors will find something else to obsess over, probably pure score as well as the other complaints.

As for anxiety, well, like I said further up, how about growing up and dealing with something. If losing or not getting a red h is a source of anxiety I wouldn't mind having a life so easy that something like that is a big concern.

Taking away an accomplishment many thousands of stories has achieved to appease the whiners is unfair to them....but who cares about them we're all about coddling these days.

I'll finish with going back to....drop anon and the Red H (as well as W's and E's) would be less contentious because it would be easier to keep and maintain. But...but OMG LC, you're talking about getting rid of a bad element! Why do that when we can keep supporting them, which is what this site famous for, from allowing trolling, hate speech in comments and disgusting forum trolls. Lit protects the problem and takes issue with solutions.

They drop the H, I'll pull my account and so should other people who have had a lot of success here. Let the herd have their banality and feels

For the five minutes it takes before they cry about something else.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is all a moot debate/argument/conversation. Nothing is going to change here, and I do have a feeling the site knows how much blow back they'd get from dropping it. Not just from authors, but as many have pointed out here readers use the H as a way to decide what to read, and whether that's fair or not(and its not) the site is never going to do something to affect the readers that provide the traffic here.

I think that last point ends the argument for anything happening, but we can continue to argue both sides of it for no reason other than to argue about it

 

[SimonDoom]

When I suggested dropping anon, you made a point that trolls will always troll. Now you think because there's no Red H, they'll stop?

Convenient.

That's not what he's saying. No system will eliminate trolling. But there's no question, based on years of commentary in this forum, that the red H system, as it currently exists, ENCOURAGES gamesmanship in voting. If you get rid of the red H, or replace it with something else (like my percentile-based red H system), there will be less gamesmanship, more accurate voting, and less angst. You may not feel any angst. Neither do I. But obviously, many, many do--and we're not just talking about those complaining about not having 4.5 scores. Those with high scores get affected by the gamesmanship in the voting here. Those who see their scores drop from 4.9 to 4.7 express as much anxiety as any other group.

No system will completely eliminate voters who vote on the basis of nasty intentions or biases or just plain hate, but the system can be adjusted to at least reduce the incentive for, and therefore, probably, the instance of this activity.

 

[RejectReality]

When I suggested dropping anon, you made a point that trolls will always troll. Now you think because there's no Red H, they'll stop?

Convenient.

High scores will still be targeted especially on top lists(or are they going away too?) the H makes it easier because its easily visible, but like you said, trolls have no issue doing whatever they need to to bomb someone because H or not, they still want to piss an author off by lowering their score.

But let's say its not there. The authors will find something else to obsess over, probably pure score as well as the other complaints.

As for anxiety, well, like I said further up, how about growing up and dealing with something. If losing or not getting a red h is a source of anxiety I wouldn't mind having a life so easy that something like that is a big concern.

Taking away an accomplishment many thousands of stories has achieved to appease the whiners is unfair to them....but who cares about them we're all about coddling these days.

I'll finish with going back to....drop anon and the Red H (as well as W's and E's) would be less contentious because it would be easier to keep and maintain. But...but OMG LC, you're talking about getting rid of a bad element! Why do that when we can keep supporting them, which is what this site famous for, from allowing trolling, hate speech in comments and threads about dead babies. This site has never protected anything but the wrong thing.

They drop the H, I'll pull my account and so should other people who have had a lot of success here. Let the herd have their banality and feels

For the five minutes it takes before they cry about something else.

No, I said it would make their efforts more difficult, and therefore provide more data to detect and sweep. They're not going to stop. They're going to get more aggressive in an attempt to cause the same level of emotional damage that is easily achieved by moving a story from 4.5 to 4.49 with the H in the mix.

Trolls gonna troll. It's a matter of whether you're making their job harder by removing an easy target or easier by reducing the voting pool and increasing the impact of their votes.

 

[BobbyLaker]

Yeah I know, another topic that's been done to death, but indulge me.

People in general enjoy praise, positive feedback, for something they've said or done.

Social media has taken that to the next level, training us to base our success or failure on how many Likes, Comments, Views or Retweets / Shares we get.

I mean, why post it if no one's gonna see or read it, right?

Unfortunately LE is unlike most social media sites. It's simply not set up to gratify us with Instant Feedback.

The closest we get to it are Views and Ratings.

And while Views can be encouraging, they don't really give us a full picture of how readers are reacting to our story.

And so we turn to the one indicator we can pry at least SOME info from: the Rating.

If we go under the assumption that a rating means someone at least finished the story, then the number of ratings tells us how many people actually read the thing. (Yes, I understand people can rate without reading or finishing the story. But I think we can agree those are minimal. )

Okay great, so we got 10 readers confirmed.

Or 100. Or 1000.

But did they LOVE IT?

LIKE it?

Find it "Average?"

Disliked? HATED???

Ah, but then there's still one more factor:

That shiny little Red H.

It's a carrot dangled before us, a goal set for us to achieve.

But what does it ultimately MEAN?

I'm sure we've all dealt with this:

We submit our story. It goes live.

The Views start coming. Then the Ratings.

Oh look, our first rating! It's a 5!

More Ratings, more numbers. Maybe it drops a little, to a 4.7 or 4 8.

Ten Ratings come in and suddenly, it appears; the Holy Grail, the Coveted Red H Stamp Of Approval!

We're happy, of course; our story us doing well.

Then the score drops.

And drops again.

And again.

POOF! Our reward is gone, lost to the digital ether.

Our score is now a 4.47. Or 4.43.

Oh no. It just dropped to 4.2. FUCK!

We're sad. What went WRONG?

WHY ARE PEOPLE HATING OUR STORY??? Why did they take away my reward, my public affirmation that my story isn't just good, or great, but "HOT???"

We can bitch about Trolls and Haters all we want, and I won't deny they exist.

But I'd be willing to bet in at least 80% of the above scenarios, trolls have NOTHING to do with it.

Maybe, just MAYBE...more people simply LIKED your story than LOVED it.

And what's wrong with that?

"But...but... my Red H!!!"

As someone with quite a few Red H's attached to my stories, I will tell you this: I'd rather have more READERS than Red H's.

I'm quite happy and content with anything rated over a 4.

The few I have under 4? I understand why.

My suggestion to solve this problem is simple:

Change the Red H requirement from 4.5 to 4.

And up the votes needed to say, at least 50. Maybe 100.

"But that would flood the market, a LOT more stories would get the Red H!!!"

So what?

If your story gets 10K Views and 100 votes to reach a 4 or higher, I think that's a pretty damn solid accomplishment.

And now readers aren't looking at the Red H to judge a story worthy and, writers are no longer seeing a story with less than a 4.5 as somehow either a failure, or a personal attack on them.

I think it would also allow us writers who also read to vote more fairly.

I've openly confessed to giving out 5s to newer authors even if their story didn't blow me away. If I felt it was a good effort, I give the 5, because I know a higher rating will encourage them to keep going.

But if I know my 4 won't kill their chances of getting that encouraging Hot tag, I could be more honest with that vote. Or even give a 3 and not feel terrible about it potentially screwing their score.

And One Bombing Trolls would do a lot less damage if the Red H stood at 4.

In the end,ratings are subjective.

Two stories have 100 votes.
One has a score of 4.51
The other, a score of 4.49.

What's the difference between the two of them besides that Red H?

Absolutely nothing, IMO.

I'd still have to read both to decide if I like them.

And the Red H doesn't influence my decision to read a story at all. If the subject matter or kink doesn't appeal to me, no amount of Red H's or score numbers will change that anyway.

Final thought: new writers, don't focus on the Red H. Don't focus on ratings, or views, or comments.

Focus on your craft. Focus on writing the best story YOU can write.

Your audience will find you.

The rest of it is window dressing.

Okay, I've rambled enough.

Fire away .

Great read!
It's longer than some my stories

 

[Djmac1031]

Great read!
It's longer than some my stories

I'm not quite as verbose in my vernacular as @EmilyMiller, but I've been known to pontificate on more than one occasion.

 

[Comshaw]

As always, an interesting look into those who post here. So my turn:
What needs to be kept in mind is this site isn't administered for the authors who post here, nor even for the readers. It is administered and configured for $s, plain and simple. With that in mind, the BRH is there to attract readers who will read stories and show as traffic to this site, which translates to $s.

While many of the suggestions here are better/fairer than the BRH, none are as simple and still get the job done of advising readers of stories other readers consider to be good. And that my good people is the essence (and main job) of the BRH, simple, direct and an enticement to get readers to read a story, which shows as traffic and generates $s. I don't see anything that will ever replace (or remove) the BRH for that reason.

As far as it not meaning anything, that it is a flawed representation of the quality of a story, for most of those BRHs that conclusion is also erroneous. Why? Basing the metric of "quality" of a story on what we each believe to be true is bias in the extreme. "OMG! The spelling is bad!" "The grammar is terrible!" "All it is is a store story!" All of those have been used to critique a story because it has a BRH and someone disagreed with it having that tag. But why does it have that BRH? For one reason: simply because it represents what readers want to read and THEY LIKE IT. It doesn't matter if it's a bunch of rabid fans who are devoted to an author and would vote a 5 on a shopping list from that author. Or a guy who likes to get off to a particular style of story. Those are the ones who get to say who gets a BRH. It's a vote by the readers, a popular vote. And, for the most part, (there are exceptions of course, but they aren't anywhere close to a majority) we write and post stories here just for the readers.

And because those stories don't rise to the level of a novel by James Joyce or Robert Falkner, because they don't meet our criteria of what a "quality" story is, doesn't mean that the readers share that view. A great example is the "Conan" series by Robert E. Howard. The writing was slammed for bad grammar, simplistic plots and other literary shortcomings. But he sold books and people enjoyed the hell out of the stories. The same can be said for Louis L'amour. Critics and writers slammed his work for years. But he entertained a whole section of the population with his tales of the old west. I am sure that if either one of those writers had stories on this board, they would have BRHs on those stories and would be snubbed by some because of their writing style.

That's the practical end of it. A discussion of what should/shouldn't be in its place and what is/isn't better is always fun, it's an empty exercise unless you or someone you know is planning on starting a site like this and can use that information.

But let's look at the emotional end of those symbols. I hear a lot of "they don't mean anything". There may be a few (a very few) to whom that is true. Most though are full of it. There are many instances of popular or prolific authors here who have stories that don't even get close to the 4.5 average to earn a BRH. For the most part, close to every one of the stories, were done that way on purpose, for sport, to antagonize or bate a particular section of Lit's reader population. So those really don't count in a discussion of the BRH.

But what happens when one of those authors who declare it means nothing, work hard on a story, pour all they have into it, post it with the expectation that it will do well because, "damn I'm good" and it turns up less than 4? Or worse less than a 3? Anyone that says that wouldn't affect them, wouldn't put them back on their heels a bit, leave a bruise (no matter how small) on the ego is a bald face liar.

I'll be honest and I will admit I like those BRHs. Yes, the system is flawed. Yes, it could be done better. But it also tells me that the majority of those who read my stories like my stories. And that is what I'm here for, to see how others like my work. I am not ashamed to admit I LIKE the ego pat that comes with it.

All that said IF they are going to change it, I'd prefer to make it harder to get. I've never been one to appreciate participation trophies. I want to earn it. And the harder it is to get, the more satisfaction I feel. I don't have a big ego (or allow it to get too big) but it does need to be stroked at times. And the harder those strokes are to earn, the more satisfying they are to me.

'nuff said

Comshaw

 

[Djmac1031]

But it also tells me that the majority of those who read my stories like my stories

Well said. I know my OP rambled on a bit, and I won't deny I enjoy my Red H's either, for the same reason.

I just try not to take them TOO seriously.

 

[Mastered_again]

So, the worst is getting the LRH only to see it immolated by the Russian judge.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I don't have an issue with it being a metric, and as a reward here because the way we get paid is stats and a Red H falls under that. My only issue is that people need not obsess about it because every thing here is so subjective and also, many readers can squick easily. You can have a reader loving 5 pages of your 6 page story but then if there's a sex act, or hell, a sentence, that takes them out of it...there goes the five vote.

So it just has to be taken in perspective. Its great to have one, but its not the be all end all here.

I wonder how people who would like to see it gone-and there's some who don't like the voting either, that people are allowed to vote anything below a 5, would take it if this entire site had no H's no scores, no top lists, no anything to differentiate a story, and all we had were tens of thousands of stories separated only by category. How would readers choose? If people think they don't get as much attention as they'd like now, imagine if this entire place was just one huge ass story list, all of us with equal chances to....not get read

Sounds like asstr.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

And right there, with the very last sentence, you answered your own question.

You can write a story that's engaging, with a sound plot, featuring well-developed characters, and then have it checked by editors to make sure the entire thing is flawless in regards to spelling and grammar... to then have it die with a < 2 rating because it's about cuckolding. Because the topic you wrote your literary masterpiece about is disliked.

THAT'S what I mean by "popularity contest".

Go, check the I/T category. You can post typo-riddled texts (I'm refusing to call some of these submissions "stories") in fantasy grammar. Low-effort, one-page, plotless masturbation fantasies I'd normally expect to be posted on r/incestconfessions or some crap, and it'll receive a rating of over 4 on here. For no other reason than people liking the theme, not the story itself.

I knew I was over qualified for a 4rating in Incest.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

As always, an interesting look into those who post here. So my turn:
What needs to be kept in mind is this site isn't administered for the authors who post here, nor even for the readers. It is administered and configured for $s, plain and simple. With that in mind, the BRH is there to attract readers who will read stories and show as traffic to this site, which translates to $s.

While many of the suggestions here are better/fairer than the BRH, none are as simple and still get the job done of advising readers of stories other readers consider to be good. And that my good people is the essence (and main job) of the BRH, simple, direct and an enticement to get readers to read a story, which shows as traffic and generates $s. I don't see anything that will ever replace (or remove) the BRH for that reason.

As far as it not meaning anything, that it is a flawed representation of the quality of a story, for most of those BRHs that conclusion is also erroneous. Why? Basing the metric of "quality" of a story on what we each believe to be true is bias in the extreme. "OMG! The spelling is bad!" "The grammar is terrible!" "All it is is a store story!" All of those have been used to critique a story because it has a BRH and someone disagreed with it having that tag. But why does it have that BRH? For one reason: simply because it represents what readers want to read and THEY LIKE IT. It doesn't matter if it's a bunch of rabid fans who are devoted to an author and would vote a 5 on a shopping list from that author. Or a guy who likes to get off to a particular style of story. Those are the ones who get to say who gets a BRH. It's a vote by the readers, a popular vote. And, for the most part, (there are exceptions of course, but they aren't anywhere close to a majority) we write and post stories here just for the readers.


But let's look at the emotional end of those symbols. I hear a lot of "they don't mean anything". There may be a few (a very few) to whom that is true. Most though are full of it. There are many instances of popular or prolific authors here who have stories that don't even get close to the 4.5 average to earn a BRH. For the most part, close to every one of the stories, were done that way on purpose, for sport, to antagonize or bate a particular section of Lit's reader population. So those really don't count in a discussion of the BRH.

But what happens when one of those authors who declare it means nothing, work hard on a story, pour all they have into it, post it with the expectation that it will do well because, "damn I'm good" and it turns up less than 4? Or worse less than a 3? Anyone that says that wouldn't affect them, wouldn't put them back on their heels a bit, leave a bruise (no matter how small) on the ego is a bald face liar.


All that said IF they are going to change it, I'd prefer to make it harder to get. I've never been one to appreciate participation trophies. I want to earn it. And the harder it is to get, the more satisfaction I feel. I don't have a big ego (or allow it to get too big) but it does need to be stroked at times. And the harder those strokes are to earn, the more satisfying they are to me.

'nuff said

Comshaw

Ain't seen you in a while.
You're right, the Red H is probably more for monetary reasons, than anything. There are sites that don't use something like it and still do fine generating revenue, I'm sure, but it is what it is, and I'm not arguing with you here on that. Either way it works, or the site wouldn't be twenty something years old. I don't see it ever going away.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, like I said right in this thread; trash can get a Red H, too. What makes it trash is up for discussion. It doesn't matter how good one writes, or think they do, when it's the readers who are the judge and jury on how objectively good one is- just like any other performative art. They got a nut out of it, or generally enjoyed it, so 5* it is.

I've seen people seem upset when they don't get a Red H, or just dissapointed. I joked once that some authors are like methheads trying to get their fix. I've seen some say they were afraid of publishing in LW because their Red H's could be at risk. One less ain't gonna kill you. Really... if you have enough of them and some reader wants to see ones entire library of submissions, it gives a chance for the below 5 stuff a chance to be read, voted, possibly be another one. The ones there are doing their job, why worry?

I honestly never gave a fuck for the longest. Then I got two of them and then they were taken away- not downvoted, but the story was removed and it was my fault. That in a way is worse than down voted to a 4. It bothers me sometimes, but it's not a big deal. Everywhere I publish, my shit is low rated, anyway. It would just be nice to get one- I managed to get two that were for chapters that didn't even have smut in them, so I don't see why nothing else has any. I think I'm a decent writer. Decent. I don't get enough ego inflating praise to think higher of myself, I damn sure don't have the mental state to think less of myself. Maybe I'm less than decent, but the lie, if it is, keeps me writing. If I had never had any, I still wouldn't care.

Plus I believe if every reader actually voted; there might be more Red H's. One of mine has 12k views, less than a hundred votes, and is under 4.30. It does feel good when I see my stuff getting favorited, though. Let it get harder... I'm already not getting any, makes no difference to me. The fuck do I care if people with 10+ can't get anymore.

 

[jasperrocks51]

Focus on your craft. Focus on writing the best story YOU can write.

Your audience will find you.

The rest of it is window dressing.

I resonate with this, and as a, soon, to be published author, I'm coming to terms with the fact that I have loved writing my story so much, that I would like the positive feedback loop as encouragement to keep writing. And, I've come to the conclusion, that I would rather have an audience of 10 passionate followers who want to go on a journey with me, than get my shorts twisted in a knot over ratings. Your comment about craft, however, hits me the most deeply, and as I've been editing/proofreading, I'm seeing the adolescence in my writing. My all time favorite writer in regards to craft is Tolkien. By the time I was on my 5th or 6th trip through the series, and knew the story so well, I found myself drilling down to his word choices, cadence, flow. And craftsmanship is the word that came to me as I marveled at the precision of every word, in every sentence. None of this was by accident, and I've been more like a toddler with a machine gun in the early stages. Thanks for the reminder to keep honing my craft, and writing the best story I can.