The Red H Debate (yeah, i know, AGAIN)

[Djmac1031]

Yeah I know, another topic that's been done to death, but indulge me.

People in general enjoy praise, positive feedback, for something they've said or done.

Social media has taken that to the next level, training us to base our success or failure on how many Likes, Comments, Views or Retweets / Shares we get.

I mean, why post it if no one's gonna see or read it, right?

Unfortunately LE is unlike most social media sites. It's simply not set up to gratify us with Instant Feedback.

The closest we get to it are Views and Ratings.

And while Views can be encouraging, they don't really give us a full picture of how readers are reacting to our story.

And so we turn to the one indicator we can pry at least SOME info from: the Rating.

If we go under the assumption that a rating means someone at least finished the story, then the number of ratings tells us how many people actually read the thing. (Yes, I understand people can rate without reading or finishing the story. But I think we can agree those are minimal. )

Okay great, so we got 10 readers confirmed.

Or 100. Or 1000.

But did they LOVE IT?

LIKE it?

Find it "Average?"

Disliked? HATED???

Ah, but then there's still one more factor:

That shiny little Red H.

It's a carrot dangled before us, a goal set for us to achieve.

But what does it ultimately MEAN?

I'm sure we've all dealt with this:

We submit our story. It goes live.

The Views start coming. Then the Ratings.

Oh look, our first rating! It's a 5!

More Ratings, more numbers. Maybe it drops a little, to a 4.7 or 4 8.

Ten Ratings come in and suddenly, it appears; the Holy Grail, the Coveted Red H Stamp Of Approval!

We're happy, of course; our story us doing well.

Then the score drops.

And drops again.

And again.

POOF! Our reward is gone, lost to the digital ether.

Our score is now a 4.47. Or 4.43.

Oh no. It just dropped to 4.2. FUCK!

We're sad. What went WRONG?

WHY ARE PEOPLE HATING OUR STORY??? Why did they take away my reward, my public affirmation that my story isn't just good, or great, but "HOT???"

We can bitch about Trolls and Haters all we want, and I won't deny they exist.

But I'd be willing to bet in at least 80% of the above scenarios, trolls have NOTHING to do with it.

Maybe, just MAYBE...more people simply LIKED your story than LOVED it.

And what's wrong with that?

"But...but... my Red H!!!"

As someone with quite a few Red H's attached to my stories, I will tell you this: I'd rather have more READERS than Red H's.

I'm quite happy and content with anything rated over a 4.

The few I have under 4? I understand why.

My suggestion to solve this problem is simple:

Change the Red H requirement from 4.5 to 4.

And up the votes needed to say, at least 50. Maybe 100.

"But that would flood the market, a LOT more stories would get the Red H!!!"

So what?

If your story gets 10K Views and 100 votes to reach a 4 or higher, I think that's a pretty damn solid accomplishment.

And now readers aren't looking at the Red H to judge a story worthy and, writers are no longer seeing a story with less than a 4.5 as somehow either a failure, or a personal attack on them.

I think it would also allow us writers who also read to vote more fairly.

I've openly confessed to giving out 5s to newer authors even if their story didn't blow me away. If I felt it was a good effort, I give the 5, because I know a higher rating will encourage them to keep going.

But if I know my 4 won't kill their chances of getting that encouraging Hot tag, I could be more honest with that vote. Or even give a 3 and not feel terrible about it potentially screwing their score.

And One Bombing Trolls would do a lot less damage if the Red H stood at 4.

In the end,ratings are subjective.

Two stories have 100 votes.
One has a score of 4.51
The other, a score of 4.49.

What's the difference between the two of them besides that Red H?

Absolutely nothing, IMO.

I'd still have to read both to decide if I like them.

And the Red H doesn't influence my decision to read a story at all. If the subject matter or kink doesn't appeal to me, no amount of Red H's or score numbers will change that anyway.

Final thought: new writers, don't focus on the Red H. Don't focus on ratings, or views, or comments.

Focus on your craft. Focus on writing the best story YOU can write.

Your audience will find you.

The rest of it is window dressing.

Okay, I've rambled enough.

Fire away .

 

[SimonDoom]

Djmac, you're one of the more level-headed and nice people around here, so I'm sorry to tell you my cannon is lit and pointed at this terrible idea.

Currently, if I recall correctly, depending on the category, a red H represents a story that's in the top 30 to 10%. That makes it a little useful to a reader's story selection process, and a nice but not very significant pat on the head for the author. If you lower the standard to 4.0, then it means over half of all stories will have red Hs. What's the point of that? It's not useful to the reader, and it's a phony plaudit for the author. "Yay, I'm in the top 60%!"

When you shift lines in this way you just create a new class of people who are disappointed and pissed off.

I say get rid of the red H. But I know it will not happen.

 

[lovecraft68]

We had instant feedback here for a long time. Up until a couple years ago when they started screening comments for 'spam' comments posted instantly. On my end I don't think I see any less comments then when it was immediate, but I don't watch all that stuff as closely as some do.

Technically the voting system gives us a version of hated it, it was okay, loved it in the 1-5 ratings, but it seems most people vote five or not at all, the one is mostly used by trolls and abusers, and the median votes just don't seem that common.

The big issue with the H-or in other words a score needing 4.5 or better-is that its made it so people see anything below a five as a bomb of some sort. That a 4 vote which means someone thought the story was pretty good is a poor vote, and that's where a lot of the bitching about "low scores" but the story is a 4.30 comes into play.

The playing field is the same for everyone, the difference is how people can deal with it, and whether or not you value the shiny numbers more than you do your satisfaction or a few, but really good comments that showed readers got it.

So, in the end its about us as individuals more than the site

 

[djrip]

When I started I had no expectations of getting a red H. Well I didn't know exactly how you got them anyway, but still. I figured those were something the real, good writers got, not average randos just figuring out what they were doing, like me. So eventually when I did start to get a few, it felt great. And when I still sometimes don't get one, it just feels like how it used to be - I'm just here doing my thing, not really expecting anyone else to take a huge amount of notice. So, when they do, it's awesome. When they don't, no biggie, never thought I'd get to that point anyway.

Of course I used to think of the authors here as unapproachable luminaries as well. Now after some time on the forum, it feels more like we're all in similar boats, traversing the same streams and cataracts. Red H's feel attainable now, but I always try not to fall into the pattern of thinking of them as necessary, or expected.

 

[Djmac1031]

Djmac, you're one of the more level-headed and nice people around here, so I'm sorry to tell you my cannon is lit and pointed at this terrible idea.

I'm perfectly fine with an opposing POV on this.

And you're absolutely right. I fully acknowledged changing the Red H requirement to a 4 would increase the amount of Red H's.

Perhaps I'll amend my thoughts to say make the required amount of votes 1K.

You gotta get at least a thousand people to vote on your story to earn that H.

That might actually cut the numbers drastically. I know many of my own stories that have Red H's would lose them based on that, because all but a few have far under 1K votes.

Some less than 100 votes.

 

[Djmac1031]

Currently, if I recall correctly, depending on the category, a red H represents a story that's in the top 30 to 10%. That makes it a little useful to a reader's story selection process, and a nice but not very significant pat on the head for the author. If you lower the standard to 4.0, then it means over half of all stories will have red Hs. What's the point of that? It's not useful to the reader, and it's a phony plaudit for the author. "Yay, I'm in the top 60%!"

Think about it this way:

An author posts a story.

Nine of his buddies vote on it, and one stranger, it earns a Red H at 4.5.

But only ten people read the thing.

Does that make it "Hot?" Not really.

Now, another author posts a story.

A thousand people read it, and almost all of them rate it a 4.

To me, that's a HOT story. Getting a thousand people to say they at least liked it seems a pretty damn good achievement.
.

 

[djrip]

I'm perfectly fine with an opposing POV on this.

And you're absolutely right. I fully acknowledged changing the Red H requirement to a 4 would increase the amount of Red H's.

Perhaps I'll amend my thoughts to say make the required amount of votes 1K.

You gotta get at least a thousand people to vote on your story to earn that H.

That might actually cut the numbers drastically. I know many of my own stories that have Red H's would lose them based on that, because all but a few have far under 1K votes.

Some less than 100 votes.

Yeah then I'd have like two I think.

 

[Djmac1031]

Yeah then I'd have like two I think.

I currently have 51 published works with a Red H.

All but ONE of them would be gone if the requirement was 1K votes.

Hell, most would be gone if 500 votes were needed.

And I'd still lose quite a few if the voting requirement was only 100.

 

[MillieDynamite]

A lot of readers are lazy. Many think by 'ing a story, they have voted it a five. Some leave comments, and when they give you a positive response, they don't vote. Others, those that rip you a new AH (not an author hangout), give you a strong 1. If you live and die by the score, this isn't the site for you. I've learned that votes, hearts, comments, and haters aren't how you judge your own work. I don't worry about the scores. I just write. I don't worry about the hateful comments. One nice comment compensates for twenty hateful ones. I write and post for those who enjoy my work. The score and even the hearts and comments don't tell you how many like or hate your work. The positive responses and 's (no matter how many or few) are reward enough here.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

Well… even though my opinion probably counts for a lot less than that of the “unapproachable luminaries” as @djrip puts it, I would do away with the red H altogether. Would simplify the scoring system to thumbs up, thumbs down, and maybe thumbs sideways. And would present all the data, raw, always, and let people interpret it themselves.

Sorry @Djmac1031, but I think uping the minimum vote number would only turn the red H into an indicator of popularity. Many excellent stories cater to niche audiences that may never award even 100 votes.

In fact maybe the site could find a way to incentivise favorites and follows, then make that the only implicit scoring system. You get a pat in the back by getting people to confidence vote story or author.

I think there is something problematic in the fact that people that paid nothing to read a story can vote on it. It does make malicious voting a problem. People voting a vendetta or even a squick that has nothing to do with story quality.

 

[djrip]

I currently have 51 published works with a Red H.

All but ONE of them would be gone if the requirement was 1K votes.

Hell, most would be gone if 500 votes were needed.

And I'd still lose quite a few if the voting requirement was only 100.

I have two in incest. 'nuff said. Actually, this change would probably make it so 90% of red H's were in that category. And LW, if any can get over 4 in there

 

[SimonDoom]

The site does what it does for the benefit of readers, not us as authors. So a red H is a shiny little thing that lazy readers can see and make the determination to read the story without having to think about much. From the Site's POV it may add some incremental benefit as a result, and increase reading and reader satisfaction, so it's probably not going to get rid of it. But it's demonstrably silly. Giving a story a red H because it has a 4.5 score conveys no more information to the reader than telling the reader it has a 4.5 score. It's an empty accolade, and as others have pointed out, it incentivizes gaming with scores.

There's so much angst in this forum about scoring and downvoting. Think about how much of the gaming would go away if they got rid of the red H. A lot, I think. More people would vote more honestly. I oppose most proposed changes to the voting system, but it's hard for me to see how the downside of getting rid of the red H would outweigh the upside.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I wouldn't change the voting. It's just one of the ways people have to let you know what they think of it. Like I said, I don't write for everyone or to appeal to everyone, I write to people who will like what I write and for me. Me first, readers second.

 

[EmilyMiller]

And LW, if any can get over 4 in there

I have one of my better ratings (4.60 / 1.9k) and my absolute worst rating (3.29 / 562) in LW. I only ever wrote two LW stories. Go figure!

Em

 

[lovecraft68]

I have two in incest. 'nuff said. Actually, this change would probably make it so 90% of red H's were in that category. And LW, if any can get over 4 in there

I have a 4.53 and a 4.30.
I also have one at 2.75 and one at 2.90

 

[Cali_Love]

I find an incredible amount of pressure over the red H and hearts. I’d have double the amount of submissions it it wasn’t for them.

 

[Djmac1031]

Giving a story a red H because it has a 4.5 score conveys no more information to the reader than telling the reader it has a 4.5 score. It's an empty accolade, and as others have pointed out, it incentivizes gaming with scores.

Again we agree.

I have one published piece, almost two years old, "Authors Log 1," where I wrote a little about my experiences as a new writer.

2K views, a mere 14 votes.

Another more recent posting, "The Jenna Arrangement: A Summary," I wrote strictly for readers of my series to pass on a little background and behind the scenes info.

1.3K views, 29 votes.

Do either of them deserve their Red H? Absolutely not. They weren't ground breaking stories that reached a wide audience, nor were they even meant to.

And yet due to the way it's set up, there they are. The public declaration that these all but unread little postings are somehow "HOT."

I mean, don't get me wrong; I appreciate the people who did read them, and thankful for their votes.

But a Red H on them is just silly, really, and means absolutely nothing.

 

[MillieDynamite]

The pressure is all self-created. There is no point in worrying about either the hearts or the score. You'll have a core group of followers who love everything you post, even if they never tell you so.

I find an incredible amount of pressure over the red H and hearts. I’d have double the amount of submissions it it wasn’t for them.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Readers read to be entertained, some for enlightenment, most on here, for stroking. If those blog entries have high scores, they met someone's needs.

Again we agree.

I have one published piece, almost two years old, "Authors Log 1," where I wrote a little about my experiences as a new writer.

2K views, a mere 14 votes.

Another more recent posting, "The Jenna Arrangement: A Summary," I wrote strictly for readers of my series to pass on a little background and behind the scenes info.

1.3K views, 29 votes.

Do either of them deserve their Red H? Absolutely not. They weren't ground breaking stories that reached a wide audience, nor were they even meant to.

And yet due to the way it's set up, there they are. The public declaration that these all but unread little postings are somehow "HOT."

I mean, don't get me wrong; I'm thankful to the people who did read them, and appreciate their votes.

But a Red H on them is just silly, really, and means absolutely nothing.

 

[Djmac1031]

Readers read to be entertained, some for enlightenment, most on here, for stroking. If those blog entries have high scores, they met someone's needs.

Agreed. But does that alone warrant a Red H?

 

[djrip]

Readers read to be entertained, some for enlightenment, most on here, for stroking. If those blog entries have high scores, they met someone's needs.

 

[AchtungNight]

AO3 has a rating system where you either leave kudos, reviews, or nothing. For reviews, the author can moderate the content- accept or reject it. There is no score system. I honestly think this system is better than Lit’s. I put a lot of work into my stories and it’s good not to get them one bombed or trolled (truth- I’ve only had to reject one review on AO3 so far and it pointed out an honest tagging mistake I corrected but it added nothing to the story so I still deleted the review).

At the same time I do see some merits in Lit’s review system. I like knowing I could do better. I don’t like that only one of my stories has the H but it does give me an aspiration. I think the majority of my other stories have the potential to earn the same award if the right people read and review them. It just hasn’t happened yet. More than that, though, I don’t like the shifting dynamics of the system. When does a 4 become a 5? What would it take for you to change your vote and make it higher? So many people seem to just click a score and move on. They don’t tell me what they liked and what they didn’t.

Also- Writers who have been 1-bombed here need to ask themselves- what if you got the reverse? What if some serious fans of your stories- say some major person as obsessed with certain celebrities as I am in my case- came along and 5 bombed your stories? Is this likely to happen? I try to write for those fans if I can, hoping they’ll show. They haven’t yet. Except maybe for my one hit wonder first time effort femslash of characters based on ScarJo, Rachel McAdams, and Keira Knightley “Fear, Lust & Vanity”. And for my femslash of characters based on other actresses Keri Russell, Alicia Witt, Evan Rachel Wood, & Erika Christensen “The Rendezvous”- but they showed up on AO3, not here. Seriously the story has 6 great reviews and multiple kudos on AO3- no H there, but if the right fans came here… Other stories I’ve written have similar potential, I tell myself. A few of them have gotten great reviews on Lit and/or AO3 in small amount. I just need more good reviews. Come on, fans of the X-Men who want to see them in hot realistic sex situations, come read my X-Men story! Same for fans of the 2008 Olympic athletes and Dynasty Warriors characters I feature in “Beijing Streakers”, my Star Trek lesbian sex show story, or my other stories as applicable.

There’s always the chance, however, that the H can go away. Today’s crazy fan can be tomorrow’s troll. Ratings can rise and they can fall. Have I truly earned my H? What if the fans suddenly change their minds? What if anti fans come and bomb me again? And even worse… what if I haven’t actually earned my H and the fans who gave it to me were just fans of my subject and not me? That’s my biggest fear.

Solution? Make the H permanent once it reaches a certain number of votes is the one I see. Let’s say 10 votes to earn the H averaged a certain way as is the current state. But then if you get a certain number of additional “5” votes you get a permanent H. Say, 50 more. Too much? Make it 30.

You may argue the H is still meaningless. I do not. Now I know I did good and the trolls can’t get me. Phew!

Or like Djmac suggested, take away the H. I already act like it should be there with all my stories, honestly. I have to earn an H from myself and muses based on all my characters plus a senior muse as editor who is honestly crazy and always praises me, then shifts her mood and says fix X, Y, and Z before I post. I think if you haven’t done similarly as a writer, you shouldn’t be publishing.

Occasionally I have seen what I’ve judged to be such a writer. I never point the finger at them, though. Nor do I one bomb. I’m honestly not a hater. I just stop reading the work of people I don’t like. Same for those with whom I get bored. And I’m bored now, so I’m moving on and saying no more here.

 

[Altissimus]

If any of you folk ever come to the UK, you really have to try this place. It's food is an easy 9/10.

 

[alohadave]

But if I know my 4 won't kill their chances of getting that encouraging Hot tag, I could be more honest with that vote. Or even give a 3 and not feel terrible about it potentially screwing their score.

This is an author problem, not a reader problem. It's not the reader's responsibility to massage the writer's ego. I knew as a reader what the H meant, but I voted on the story.

Us authors are the only people who care about the H. I mean look at how many threads there are about scoring and voting. I like having them, they are an ego boost.

Be honest and give the story the rating it deserves.

 

[SimonDoom]

My question to those who want to keep the red H:

Putting aside your own personal pleasure at getting red Hs--just disregard this for the sake of argument--what argument is there for the red H? What good does it actually do for the Site, for readers, and for authors? What harm would be done by getting rid of it?

For every author who gets a tingle from getting a red H, there is probably at least one who's upset at having a 4.49 because of perceived downvoting. Seems like a wash to me as far as total author satisfaction. Would authors be less likely to contribute stories if the site got rid of the red H? I doubt it.

How would readers react if they got rid of the red H? Would they have less information available to them to help them choose stories? No, because they'd still have the score. Now, if the red H was tied to a percentile, it would convey some additional information beyond the score. But the fact of the matter is that readers have NO idea what the red H means in terms of relative quality or percentile. None. Zero. It's a completely arbitrary accolade that is not tied to the percentile rank and therefore varies widely from one category to the next. So I can't see anyway that readers would be hurt by getting rid of the red H.

Would the Site be hurt? Maybe. Some readers might be pissed that the Site got rid of something they've relied upon (even if irrationally) to choose stories, and they might choose to read fewer stories or go elsewhere. But this seems mighty speculative to me.

On the other hand, the advantages, if the Site got rid of the red H:

Authors would face less gaming in the voting. Since "4.5" wouldn't mean anything, nasty readers would be less incentivized deliberately to bomb stories to get them under that level. Angst would be reduced. Authors would not care so much that their story had a 4.49 as opposed to a 4.51.

Readers would face more accurate scores, because there would be less gaming. Accurate scores would convey more useful information for story selection, and that's the whole point of scoring systems, right?

Would the Site benefit? I don't know. I think it could take pride in having a fairer and more accurate system, but I don't know whether getting rid of the red H would have a beneficial impact on site traffic. I suspect it would have no impact, which to me is reason enough to get rid of a system that just engenders mischief and angst.