Is erotica sexual harassment?

[sxPlasticity]

Not sure what happened with the formatting on that last post, but apologies in advance...

In closing, I think the difficulty you are having is not really a legal one, but you seem to be having more of an ethical problem with it.

Try asking yourself if you really want to write the story. It's fun for a masochist to get in trouble. But there's also the very real consequences of whatever trouble you are trying to get into.

The problem isn't really a legal one.

You seem to be contemplating a boundary to me.

Maybe try focusing on that...

 

[KeithD]

My 750 word story The Blonde In Black was inspired by a lovely young woman I saw at the gym on a semi regular basis.

No, I never spoke to her, nor her to me. No, I wasn't some creep constantly gawking at her or making her uncomfortable.

I don't think she even knew I existed.

I had a little head fantasy about her and wrote it down.

There's nothing in my story that could identify her to anyone. And if she somehow stumbled on it, she probably wouldn't realize it was about her specifically.

It's a fictional story. Fictional character. Writers turn the real inspirations around them into fiction all the time.

But, if like the OP has done, you suddenly are wondering if she can charge you with sexual harassment, this use of her in your writing has gone to a new, disturbing level.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Surely, this is the time you don't want to keep it real, right?

But, if like the OP has done, you suddenly are wondering if she can charge you with sexual harassment, this use of her in your writing has gone to a new, disturbing level.

 

[AchtungNight]

As a fanfic writer, I don’t consider writing erotic stories sexual harassment. I have clear disclaimers that they are fiction and I don’t send them to people saying things like “I want to do things to you like the characters in these stories are experiencing.” My ex used to beta read for me, but that was after I revealed my hobby and we discussed it as respectful adults both aware of online dating and sexting. She doesn’t mind me basing a character on her either. I asked, she said she didn’t mind. Every woman I have told about my hobby understands it is just that, and none consider me a sicko or anything similar as far as I know. That includes my mother, my sister, and my ex. A few times I have had arguments, but there have been no lasting accusations. Like the legendary Casanova, I try not to air my sexual feelings with anyone I fear would call them harassment. Not an easy path, especially today, but I’m a keen observer of human behavior and it’s worked thus far.

 

[MillieDynamite]

You can tell your story. You need to be sure, absent consent from the other Amanda's, that it can't be identified by them or someone who knows them as being specifically about them. @madelinemasoch, you can change names or you can change something else. Or you can just ask for permission.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

As a fanfic writer, I don’t consider writing erotic stories sexual harassment. I have clear disclaimers that they are fiction and I don’t send them to people saying things like “I want to do things to you like the characters in these stories are experiencing.” My ex used to beta read for me, but that was after I revealed my hobby and we discussed it as respectful adults both aware of online dating and sexting. She doesn’t mind me basing a character on her either. I asked, she said she didn’t mind. Every woman I have told about my hobby understands it is just that, and none consider me a sicko or anything similar as far as I know. That includes my mother, my sister, and my ex. A few times I have had arguments, but there have been no lasting accusations. Like the legendary Casanova, I try not to air my sexual feelings with anyone I fear would call them harassment. Not an easy path, especially today, but I’m a keen observer of human behavior and it’s worked thus far.

I'm gonna be perfectly honest with you...

As far as the courts are concerned, it's not sexual harassment. But that's mainly because, as far as courts are concerned, having people fantasize about you and spin conspiracy theories that involve you is just something that comes with the territory of being a person of public interest. But here's the thing:

It's still creepy as hell.

You might not send it to someone's home in an unstamped envelope that may or may not has been covered in your bodily fluids, but you still put it out there for the whole world to see. And you have to admit that, while it's perfectly fine to have fantasies about an attractive person you met, if those fantasies get SO detailed that you can write an entire story about it, it becomes kinda concerning. Same if you're one of those people who feel like they have to put those fantasies onto paper to get rid of them. It's bordering on obsession. And if that happens NOT to [insert current popular actress name here], but instead to Suzy from accounting, and people find out about it... you'll be asked to leave the building and given your two-week notice. And I'd be hard-pressed to find an argument against it.

 

[AchtungNight]

I don't put my stories on paper to get them out of my head. That wouldn't work anyway. I write them because I know for a fact that others enjoy them. I am not obsessed with any of my subjects- whatever you believe. I have heard arguments similar to yours before and it's one of the reasons I don't write about people close to me without their permission. That includes co-workers of course. My ex is the only one who has ever given me such permission and the only one I've asked.

You can make whatever arguments you want, I'm not giving up my hobby. I don't consider it creepy or concerning and neither did my ex. The same is true of every woman among my friends & family with whom I have discussed the issue- or at least they haven't said anything to my face. If you are a reader here, you have a similar hobby, whatever you say, so IMHO your arguments are moot. I also have female fans out there along with the males.

Fantasies are normal, and some people write them out. Romance gets huge sections at bookstores and those novels are full of detailed sex scenes. Same is true of bestseller thrillers. It's not a perverse thing. I do it because I can, because I know people enjoy it, and frankly, it's fun.

I don't keep it a secret because- as you probably already know, it's legal and I don't want to hide it. It may be my most lasting legacy. If you want to keep arguing with me about it, I politely request you take the trouble to read my stories and find specific examples of troublesome scenes so I can properly respond as to my intent. Yes, I'm an unusual person. I'm neurodivergent, we all are.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I don't put my stories on paper to get them out of my head. That wouldn't work anyway. I write them because I know for a fact that others enjoy them. I am not obsessed with any of my subjects- whatever you believe. I have heard arguments similar to yours before and it's one of the reasons I don't write about people close to me without their permission. That includes co-workers of course. My ex is the only one who has ever given me such permission and the only one I've asked.

You can make whatever arguments you want, I'm not giving up my hobby. I don't consider it creepy or concerning and neither did my ex. The same is true of every woman among my friends & family with whom I have discussed the issue- or at least they haven't said anything to my face. If you are a reader here, you have a similar hobby, whatever you say, so IMHO your arguments are moot. I also have female fans out there along with the males.

Fantasies are normal, and some people write them out. Romance gets huge sections at bookstores and those novels are full of detailed sex scenes. Same is true of bestseller thrillers. It's not a perverse thing. I do it because I can, because I know people enjoy it, and frankly, it's fun.

I don't keep it a secret because- as you probably already know, it's legal and I don't want to hide it. It may be my most lasting legacy. If you want to keep arguing with me about it, I politely request you take the trouble to read my stories and find specific examples of troublesome scenes so I can properly respond as to my intent. Yes, I'm an unusual person. I'm neurodivergent, we all are.

Just to make this perfectly clear... my post wasn't meant as an accusation. It was entirely about how writing and publishing sexual fantasies concerning real-life people could be perceived.

And that you heard similar arguments from others kinda proves my point, even if you find it moot. The thing is that, even if I have a similar hobby, just like every other person in this forum, that's not the target group who would decide whether or not it could have consequences. We are here for one of two reasons: To share our own writing or to enjoy someone else's writing. Neither of these is what you can expect from people who suddenly find themselves in one of your stories.

As long as Suzy from accounting isn't a registered member here, chances are she WON'T appreciate having people insinuate stuff about her private sex life on the internet, even if your ex-wife who you keep using as your sole anecdotal example gave you a different impression.

 

[AchtungNight]

I know. You don't need to keep pointing it out.

I have other anecdotal examples too, but I don't feel the need to specifically detail them.

 

[madelinemasoch]

There's nothing in my story that could identify her to anyone. And if she somehow stumbled on it, she probably wouldn't realize it was about her specifically.

How much detail did you include in describing her, especially appearance wise? I ask this not in an accusatory manner but for my own reference.

 

[ElectricBlue]

How much detail did you include in describing her, especially appearance wise? I ask this not in an accusatory manner but for my own reference.

Madeline, maybe this will help. I have a lot of stories written around real people, and I have an equal number where characters are completely imaginary. The level of physical description in all my stories is quite similar. Now, some readers of some stories have thought characters were real when in fact they are completely fictional.

My point is, unless readers know both you and the person of your fantasies, how is anyone going to know whether your stories are truth or fiction, your characters reality based or imaginary?

Unless you declare your on line identify to this other person, and this other person reads content here on Lit, how can anyone make the connection you fear?

Change the person's name, don't mention the place where you both live, vague up the real location, don't include recognisable details such as streets, geography etc. Or set the story in a city on the other side of the country you live in, or don't name the city at all. It doesn't take much to add deliberate misdirection into a story - I do it all the time.

I think you're worrying needlessly, but you're clearly upsetting yourself about this. Maybe you should take a step back, think it through more logically. How would anyone join up the dots?

 

[Djmac1031]

How much detail did you include in describing her, especially appearance wise? I ask this not in an accusatory manner but for my own reference.

General physical description. And I never really saw her face, not fully. And that was kinda the point of the story. The Mystery Woman. The Fantasy Woman.

My point is, unless readers know both you and the person of your fantasies, how is anyone going to know whether your stories are truth or fiction, your characters reality based or imaginary?

Exactly this.

I could write about someone I know in real life. And in fact I have.

But without a specific name, specific details, that person becomes a fictional character.

 

[StillStunned]

There are 8 billion people on this planet. Without a name and address, how specific does a description have to be for someone to be able to say beyond any doubt, "That's me"?

 

[AchtungNight]

It all boils down to this- what can you stomach yourself doing? I decided I wanted to entertain others with my stories no matter what some might think of them. Other people have written far worse stories about celebrities than I have, including professional writers for shows like Saturday Night Live and South Park. They don’t get prosecuted or suffer lawsuits. At least I state up front my stories are fiction rather than fact. My intent is to entertain, not harass or defame. That is clear and the creepiness of it is a matter of opinion. If your story is powerful enough in your mind, and you can write it, I say go ahead. And it doesn’t have to be about the real person. Change details as has been discussed. State your intentions in a disclaimer. Remember parody is protected speech. So is acknowledging that a person is attractive and opinions about their character. People’s reactions to such things are varied. Some are disturbed, some dismissive, some honored, some amused. I’ve read about female celebrities having all these reactions to erotic stories about them in various interviews. I decided to take my chances and have been publishing my writing online for almost twenty years. The worst issue I’ve encountered is debate with online trolls. The positive feedback I have received is far better and worth the mental chaos I handle to write in my opinion.

It’s ultimately your choice, not ours, what you should do here. We can only advise. You decide. Good luck.

 

[SimonDoom]

It all boils down to this- what can you stomach yourself doing? I decided I wanted to entertain others with my stories no matter what some might think of them. Other people have written far worse stories about celebrities than I have, including professional writers for shows like Saturday Night Live and South Park. They don’t get prosecuted or suffer lawsuits. My intent is to entertain, not harass or defame. That is clear and the creepiness of it is a matter of opinion. If your story is powerful enough in your mind, and you can write it, I say go ahead. And it doesn’t have to be about the real person. Change details as has been discussed. State your intentions in a disclaimer. Remember parody is protected speech. So is acknowledging that a person is attractive and opinions about their character. People’s reactions to such things are varied. Some are disturbed, some dismissive, some honored, some amused. I’ve read about female celebrities having all these reactions in various interviews. I decided to take my chances and have been publishing my writing online for almost twenty years. The worst issue I’ve encountered is debate with online trolls. The positive feedback I have received is far better and worth the mental chaos I handle to write in my opinion.

It’s ultimately your choice, not ours, what you should do here. We can only advise. You decide. Good luck.

I think these guidelines make sense regarding celebrities, but not necessarily regarding non-celebrities, which is what the OP is talking about.

The whole point of celebrity fiction is to write a story that the reader knows is about a famous person. There are people who get off on fictional sex stories about Taylor Swift. It's not illegal to write such stories, and it's certainly not sexual harassment.

Legally and ethically, it is completely different to write a story about a non-celebrity, ESPECIALLY if you have a certain kind of relationship with that person, such as being a co-worker, or an employer, or having a teacher-student relationship, or something like that. You can throw all the guidelines that apply to celebrities right out the window, because they are irrelevant.

If I happen to see an attractive woman in a coffee shop and write a fantasy story based on her, in which I describe her in some detail, but don't know her name and take care NOT to name the particular coffee shop or describe it in a way that someone is realistically likely to identify her, then there is no problem. I have no relationship with that person from which a "sexual harassment" charge is likely to arise.

But if it's an attractive woman who works for me in a coffee shop, that's a completely different matter. I would go out of my way to make sure nobody was going to make the connection AND that nobody would have a case against me even if they did make the connection.

 

[AchtungNight]

I agree with that. I don’t write stories about people who work for me or vice versa. I am not out to harass. And yes, I know I’m walking a fine line. I feel I’ve been walking it too long to step off. I’m not a hypocrite. Walk or fall, those are my options. Attraction may cause disgust and fear, but it also creates art, ecstasy, and life. What do we value more? Far better to face our fears and let them empower us than suppress them and let them win. I have fans and haters, I know with whom I stand. And I’m not one of the people who distorts truth to their advantage. I ultimately respect women too- you can see that in my work. The female characters are formidable, strong morally and sexually on top of physically and mentally. I have endeavored to ensure that. And I will stand in the arena to defend why I did it and gladly accept my fate.

 

[stickygirl]

I guess it comes down to one's conscience and how comfortable the author feels in writing about someone known to them ( and only them ). Given that techniques to anonymise ( forgive that word ) are simple enough, then it is purely a matter for the author. If an author is wracked by guilt, which I can understand, then save the page, close it and put it in a folder called Maybes.

 

[Britva415]

Let's say: What if a reader reads some story.

This story may or may not have detailed physical descriptions.

It may or may not have biographic and geographic details at a great level, or any level.

The reader... imagines someone they know in place of one of the characters. They don't mistake the fictional character for someone they know, they don't mistake the author for someone they know, they just mentally put someone they know into the shoes of one of the story characters and enjoy the smut.

Is the reader perpetrating harassment?

They don't engage with the author to ask what real-life person the character was based on. They don't email the story to the person they know and say "look at what I fapped to while thinking about you." They keep it to themselves, though of course the story is still online for anyone to see.

If it's OK for a reader to do this, it's OK for a writer to have someone in mind too.

 

[Britva415]

If it's OK for a reader to do this, it's OK for a writer to have someone in mind too.

And I'm not talking about legally OK, which some responders seem to have focused on. I think OP wasn't thinking about legality or liability, I think they were thinking about ethics a lot less mechanically than that.

 

[TheLobster]

Rather than discuss the ethics or legality of depicting real people in a story in a way that it would allow them to recognize themselves if they read it, I’m gonna try to sidestep the issue at a different angle.

My simple answer is that you shouldn’t do that because it hamstrings reader’s imagination, regardless of whether or not it’s legal and/or moral. Don’t get into such excruciating detail that there is nothing for the readers to fill in with their own fantasies. That is, frankly, pretty boring.

Instead, give him a general idea and move on. Only add details if they are relevant to the plot, and that may include other character’s impressions about the one you are describing. Anything more will mostly just be distracting from the meat of your story.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

There are 8 billion people on this planet. Without a name and address, how specific does a description have to be for someone to be able to say beyond any doubt, "That's me"?

Well, to quote OP on this topic:

[...] I like being really detailed: describing things like the way a character inspired by the person and vice versa talks and their basic features as well as more specific ones.

So, basically, OP wants to provide a detailed description of their physical appearance, their speech patterns, and their mannerism. I think that's pretty damn near as close as you can get to making a person identifiable without downright calling out their names.

 

[Britva415]

a detailed description of their physical appearance, their speech patterns, and their mannerism. I think that's pretty damn near as close as you can get to making a person identifiable without downright calling out their names

I don't agree. A lot more PII is missing from that than just their names.

PII is the "personally identifiable information" which privacy law cares about. None of the things you described are PII under law.

Now, I grant that I just got done saying that I don't think focusing on this in terms of law or liability is helpful to the OP. I could be wrong about that, but my point is that even though I just got done saying that, I do think that the law provides a good proxy for determining what details might be involved with the practical ethical matter of whether using a real-life person as an inspiration for a story is going to be harassing to them or not.

With that in mind: If the story has zero PII, no matter how detailed and accurate it is about the "model's" habits, mannerisms, appearance, personal preferences, favorite music, there is always reasonable doubt or plausible deniability or basically just a complete absence of certainty about the person's identity - and about whether the character is even related to any real-life person at all. To conclude that a character "is" a real person is not reasonable, unless some information is present which leads to connecting the dots.

For example, the reader would have to know who the author is and that it's someone they know in real life. Without this information, the reader has no basis to conclude that the author is writing about them.

Or if the reader doesn't know the author knows them, then real dox-style PII would have to be in the story. A first, middle or last name would be PII. A hometown, residential street name, field or position of employment, school history, make of car they drive, these are the kinds of PII which get companies sued for leaking, hurt people when getting doxxed, and could make a person realistically suspect that the character is them.

The whole "is this harassment" question which OP asked comes to how does it affect the person the character is based on. If they never read the story, if they read it but can't realistically link the character to themself personally, if nobody who knows them reads it and makes that link, if the author doesn't do something to draw their attention to it, if there's a preponderance of evidence, then sure. Such a person might feel harassed.

Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with an author's art imitating life.

 

[countdowntolov3]

Legally and ethically, it is completely different to write a story about a non-celebrity, ESPECIALLY if you have a certain kind of relationship with that person, such as being a co-worker, or an employer, or having a teacher-student relationship, or something like that. You can throw all the guidelines that apply to celebrities right out the window, because they are irrelevant.

I'm not a lawyer, but I do know that in most places proving libel and/or slander is a lot harder if the person is a public figure. I feel like the same rule applies here. A little bit of dirt flinging might be the price of fame. Unfair, but too difficult to protect against.

This will probably become a much bigger issue soon, with how good computers are getting at "deepfakes" and the like.

 

[ElectricBlue]

So, basically, OP wants to provide a detailed description of their physical appearance, their speech patterns, and their mannerism. I think that's pretty damn near as close as you can get to making a person identifiable without downright calling out their names.

Okay, here's a test. Here's a very detailed description of a woman. Who is she?

"Me too, can't wait to get out of this thing," she said, tapping the arm rest on the wheelchair with her finger tips. Long, black nails.

Forthright then, about her disability. Forthright too, in her attitude and sass. She was in her late twenties, early thirties maybe, still carrying the edgy look of some of the art and design students I had known during my uni days.

Her brightly coloured hair was shaved up one side of her head, razor cut close to her skull, and on the other side, a long twisted braid fell down over her shoulder, with a long sweeping fringe flicked over an eye. Each twist of her hair was a colour of the rainbow. Her face was pale, with black cat's eyes, Cleopatra's eyes, done with cleverly applied mascara, full red lips.

She pulled a pair of leather gloves from the bag resting in her lap, and wriggled her fingers into them. The gloves were in fact mitts, strong padded palms to grip the rim of her wheels. The flick and straighten of her fingers into the dark leather drew attention to the many silver and black rings on her fingers, beautifully made jewellery.

In contrast to her hair, cat's eyes and ruby lips, her clothes were black. A pair of leather boots were on her feet, intricately laced up her ankles, her feet wedged to the sides of the foot plates of the wheelchair. This woman clearly liked well crafted things about her and on her. Like those objects, she too was a piece of art in her own right. She was making a statement, that's for sure. Look at me. Fuck the wheelchair, look at me.

She reached again into the depths of her bag, pulled out a bottle of water, and tilted it to her lips. Her teeth pulled, pearly white, on the white nub of the bottle to let the water flow. She tilted her head back and took a long gulp. Her throat was long, the rainbow hair falling past her neck, tumbling off her shoulder in a twist of colour.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Okay, here's a test. Here's a very detailed description of a woman. Who is she?

I don't know.

That being said, I didn't even read the description you provided because I fail to see the point. The problem arises when someone sees the description, goes "I know that person!", and starts sharing it for others who know the person to ALSO go "Yeah, you're right! That's totally her! I knew that slut does gang bangs!".