But it goes to eleven...

[intim8]

My point is that 4s aren't a low score, and a 4.4 or 4.2, despite not garnering that coveted H, means most readers liked the story quite a bit. It means quite a few even loved it.

I know, and I would prefer that 4 was considered well above average, and 3 was, well, average, but still decent.

But it isn't that way, not here, not anywhere else on the internet. If an Amazon product is rated under four, it probably has issues. Not because just under 4 is theoretically bad, but because reviewers take 5 as the default, and take points off from that for problems. 3 should be the default, and add points for above and beyond things.

So here, it's almost a 1-10 scale, with the meaningful part of the rating coming after the 4. Not quite that, but under 4 would be pretty disappointing, and most stories at that rating are in fact sub-par.

 

[Comshaw]

My point isn't that we shouldn't all want 5s - I of course want 5s. My point is that 4s aren't a low score, and a 4.4 or 4.2, despite not garnering that coveted H, means most readers liked the story quite a bit. It means quite a few even loved it.

Perfect is the enemy of the good, and I think instead of trying to find ways to "fix" or rationalize our less-than-earthshattering numbers we should work on being satisfied with good.

Naw sorry, can't do it. If I'm satisfied with how it is I'll never want to make it better. And I do want to make it better, always. That's just how I'm driven.

Comshaw

 

[alohadave]

6️ = leave a comment
7️ = PM the author
8️ = reference the story in one of the few “I like other people’s work” threads
9️ = start a thread saying how good it is
10️ = propose marriage

Every female presenting author would have all 10️, but not from anyone you'd want a proposal from.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Every female presenting author would have all 10️, but not from anyone you'd want a proposal from.

Aye - there’s the rub!

 

[OffNSFW]

The fact that it's nearly impossible to get a 5 star average means that 5 works fine as the maximum rating. Readers can interpret the scale however they want. If they want to make 5 their unattainable holy grail rating, they can do that. If they want to splatter 5s all over the place, they can do that, too.

Personally, I think if you enjoy a story, you should give it a 5. There is no such thing as a perfect story, and odds are slim that the next story you read is going to take you to previously unknown heights of readerly pleasure. Authors should not have to jump through flaming hoops, nor should they have to juggle chainsaws. I see no reason to withold a 5 in the event that you eventually come across some half-imagined ultimate great story.

If you have a clearly articulated reservation about a story--we're talking things like readability, flow, character development--maybe downgrade it to a 4. If it's so amateurish and rough around the edges that you can't bring yourself to do a 4, give it a 3 and leave a CONSTRUCTIVE comment.

If your problem is that the subject matter wasn't to your taste, leave the rating system alone and walk away. It's a big planet with all kinds of people on it. Not everything is meant for everybody, nor should it have to be.

Literotica is a free site where most of the stories were written by people who do this as a hobby. And, except for the ones who are contributors themselves, most of the readers probably don't realize the guts it takes to let someone else read something you wrote, let alone an entire Internet full of strangers. To leave a 1 or a 2 on a story that you're probably going to forget about in five minutes seems unhelpful and pointlessly mean.

 

[Djmac1031]

In reality what you’re describing should be the 5, which of course already exists. That’s supposed to be the “wow,” the exceptional review, the rare gold star.

But we writers are spoiled and want only 5s. If we don’t get that 4.5 red H we think we either did something wrong or we were wronged by our readers.

If six stars were possible we’d be unsatisfied with 5.4s. Instead of moving the goalposts we just need to learn to be happy with positive reviews.

Exactly.

I've said it repeatedly when this topic comes up: There is nothing wrong with a 4. 4 = LIKED.

I'll say it again: IF A READER VOTED 4 STARS ON YOUR STORY IT MEANS THEY LIKED IT.

"But I want the 4.5 to get the Red H and that 4 just lowered my score!"

Hey, I get it. I'm not gonna be hypocritical and say I don't care about my story ratings, because I do. And I hate seeing a story I worked hard on lose that coveted Red H.

But I refuse to cry about it, nor blame readers. If I didn't WOW them enough for a 5, that's on me, not them.

And I'm thankful they read the thing at all. And grateful for their rating.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Maybe referencing other stories in your own stories can be an alternative 10?

I’ve given out lots of those then

 

[intim8]

I refuse to cry about it, nor blame readers

I'm doing neither. At worst, I'm lamenting that rating inflation (everwhere, not just here) is the state of things. Nobody's fault (no single raindrop can be blamed for the deluge.) But it does leave me unable to acknowledge one of those extremely rare stories that deserves a place in the pantheon of stories here that are so far above the rest that nothing else is even in the same league.

I've favorited a total of 8 stories, ever. I've probably missed a few from back before I had an account and could favorite things, but there would only be two or three more. Those are the only stories I would give a 6 to.

This thread was prompted because one of them was published just yesterday.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

In a better world, a three would indicate a perfectly servicable story, worth reading if you have the time, even if it isn't remarkable or a must read. But it isn't that world, and it leaves no room to take it up a notch, to go to eleven, to acknowledge those stories that really stand out as something special even among the greats here. Some days, I genuinely wish six stars were possible.

But lit is hardly a better world, and thus there is no rubric for scores, hence the scores tell us nothing about the quality of our work. Better scores do not mean that we have written something better. They simply mean that we have written something more popular or at least less risky (for the category).

 

[intim8]

the scores tell us nothing about the quality of our work

They tell us something, it is just harder to tease out exactly what.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Or just get rid of the cursed H that makes people feel guilty for voting 4.

No one feels guilty voting me a 4 (or less). : P

 

[pink_silk_glove]

When I read a story, and it holds my attention until the end. I give it a 5...
...
The score in my opinion is totally irrelevant.

If that's the case, why do you vote at all? Especially if you only vote fives or ones. That's pretty hostile towards authors, dismissing their story with a one, just because you don't finish it. That's a reflection on you, not the story.

Further evidence that scores mean nothing in regards to quality. When each voter has their own rubric for voting and these rubrics can have such little thought put into them as this one does, one has to wonder why writers often sulk when they get a poor score.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I don't feel guilty voting the one. I realise it will get swept away at the next Lit clean up.

No, actually. There is no guarantee that it will be swept out. In fact, if you vote it a 1 after genuinely reading at least a decent chunk of it and you;re not voting a pile of 1s in quick succession, it probably stays forever.

 

[intim8]

scores mean nothing in regards to quality.

My scores have a pretty good (though imperfect) correlation to my own assessment of the quality of my various stories.

The ratings on my stories cluster into four tiers. And every one of them is in the tier I would put it in, at least relatively, though not in terms of absolute numbers. Within the tiers, the correlation is less accurate to my subjective judgment.

 

[ElectricBlue]

My scores have a pretty good (though imperfect) correlation to my own assessment of the quality of my various stories.

The ratings on my stories cluster into four tiers. And every one of them is in the tier I would put it in, at least relatively, though not in terms of absolute numbers. Within the tiers, the correlation is less accurate to my subjective judgment.

Yes, this pretty much applies to my story file. The ranking clusters given by readers pretty much align with my own self-assessment, except in two or three instances where clearly readers are philistines .

 

[Britva415]

I'm new around here.

Twice in this thread people have used the phrase "the issue of inflation" but I don't know what they're saying.

A treadmill is described on the first page, which to my mind would be the mechanism which would lead to inflation, but there is no treadmill so I don't know what inflation has happened or what causes it.

 

[intim8]

Twice in this thread people have used the phrase...

Are you being serious? Not a sarcastic question, the treadmill thing feels like a joke that went over my head

 

[Britva415]

Are you being serious? Not a sarcastic question, the treadmill thing feels like a joke that went over my head

It's not a joke, it's the word for what was described on the first page, where adding another star, or 7, or 10, or 11, results in inflation.

So without the "more stars" treadmill I don't know what people mean when they talk about "the issue of inflation."

 

[Cagivagurl]

If that's the case, why do you vote at all? Especially if you only vote fives or ones. That's pretty hostile towards authors, dismissing their story with a one, just because you don't finish it. That's a reflection on you, not the story.

As I said.
I have no problem voting a 1... It will be swept away when Lit does their thing....
I vote 1 when the story can't hold my attention.
I read a lot, and I understand what I like. A story has to be very poorly told not to hold my attention...
I'm not talking technical things like grammar. I'm talking about story telling.

Pretty simple really.

Cagivagurl

 

[SimonDoom]

My scores have a pretty good (though imperfect) correlation to my own assessment of the quality of my various stories.

Interesting. I don't feel this way at all about my stories. I see story scores in my submission list being heavily influenced by length, category choice, and the introduction of controversial subject matter, which in my opinion has nothing to do with quality. I think some of my 750-word stories are among my better "written" stories, for example, but none of them have achieved a score of 4.5. None of my Loving Wives stories have scores commensurate with my other stories. My most popular (in terms of views) and, in my opinion, one of my better written exhibitionist stories has never cracked 4.5, while most of my exhibitionist stories have cracked that threshold.

Many of the complaints with the current system stem, in my view, from the red H, and how it is pegged to a score--4.5--that signifies almost nothing in terms of quality. In some categories it reflects a score in the 90th percentile. In others it's no better than a median score. That's ridiculous. There's no question that the existence of the 4.5 leads to gaming, to tactical voting, to downvoting, and to a refusal of at least some voters to give scores other than 5, which, when you think about it, is ridiculous.

I'd like to see a system where the raw 1-5 score is converted to a percentile, and a red H is awarded based on percentile in a category, say top 25%. I think this would discourage bad voting and encourage more meaningful voting.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I have no problem voting a 1... It will be swept away when Lit does their thing....

Several questions here ...

1 - What makes you think that your 1-vote will be swept out?
2 - Do you believe that all 1-votes are swept out, and if so why would the site even allow 1 votes at all if all that they do is create work for the admin to sweep them out?
3 - If you don't believe that all 1-votes are swept out, what makes your 1-votes sweepable and others not?
4 - Do you believe that it is not possible for a story to get a legit 1-vote?
5 - If you thought that your 1-vote wouldn't get swept out would you still have no problem with your vote?
6 - If you did have a problem with your vote, why would you feel any guilt over a vote, and why would you give a vote that you feel guilty over?

... and the most mindboggling of all ...

7 - Why the hell would you even bother 1-voting if you "know" that it will be swept out?

 

[NotWise]

Our scores are inflated. I think that's an interesting thing to keep in mind when you or someone else complains about the readers. 8letters posted some stats a while back to the effect that the median score was close to 4.5. Generally you'd figure that the median score should be about 3. You can even define a "neutral" scale where the average score would be a three.

So why are the votes inflated? I think it's because the readers mostly appreciate the free entertainment we give and they vote to reward the author. My normal instinct, here and with similar ratings on other sites, is to skip voting unless I can vote fairly high. If other people vote the same way, then that creates a systematically high bias in the results.

I went through the gyrations to figure out what kind of voting pattern would transform an average score that should be near three to something close to 4.5. Here it is:


This is set up so 1% of the viewers vote, and it shows how many voters might vote if they perceive the vote as being 5, 4 or better, 3 or better, and so on.

The next graph shows what that does to a score that's near the median; without the voting bias the story would have a score of 3 and an even distribution of votes.


With the friendly bias in voting, the votes skew toward five and the votes cast give a score of 4.5.

The overall effect is to inflate our scores. The last graph shows what our scores might look like if the readers were neutral instead of friendly.


To use the graph, find your score on the bottom axis, trace up to the curve, then find the corresponding point on the left axis. It shows that a score of 4.5 (bottom axis) corresponds to a neutral (deflated) score of about 3. A score of 4.75 would be a 4 without the bias, and a score of 3 would be a 1.5 without the bias.

This process needs a little work, but I think any refinement is still going to show the same thing.

Don't complain about your readers. They're being as nice as they can be.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Several questions here ...

1 - What makes you think that your 1-vote will be swept out?
2 - Do you believe that all 1-votes are swept out, and if so why would the site even allow 1 votes at all if all that they do is create work for the admin to sweep them out?
3 - If you don't believe that all 1-votes are swept out, what makes your 1-votes sweepable and others not?
4 - Do you believe that it is not possible for a story to get a legit 1-vote?
5 - If you thought that your 1-vote wouldn't get swept out would you still have no problem with your vote?
6 - If you did have a problem with your vote, why would you feel any guilt over a vote, and why would you give a vote that you feel guilty over?

... and the most mindboggling of all ...

7 - Why the hell would you even bother 1-voting if you "know" that it will be swept out?

1) I have no clear understanding of Lit's policy. I have heard of them sweeping stories to get rid off the pesky ones.
2) As above... Why I don't know....
3)As number one. I have no idea how they manage it.
4) Yes...
5) Yes... If the story isn't good enough to hold my attention. Then it isn't good enough (For my tastes) I am no literary expert. My grammar is poor, so I can only judge the quality of the story telling. If it's a good story, then I'll read it through. If I get to the end. It gets a 5.
6) I have no guilt over my vote.
7) Why vote??? Because the story either earned a 5, or it didn't.
I vote on less than 5% of the stories I read. Most are merely stories, they neither excite or irritate me. They're just there.
If a story does hold my attention and it's clear and understandable. it gets a 5...
It has to be pretty awful to earn a 1. I'm not that discerning....
Sorry if you don't like my method... Feel free to complain to management.

Cagivagurl

 

[alohadave]

1) I have no clear understanding of Lit's policy. I have heard of them sweeping stories to get rid off the pesky ones.

While Lit doesn't disclose how sweeps work, and they really don't want us to discuss it too much, it's presumable that 1 votes that don't follow a pattern of mass downvotes or targeted downvotes, your 1 vote will likely be counted as valid.

 

[Cagivagurl]

While Lit doesn't disclose how sweeps work, and they really don't want us to discuss it too much, it's presumable that 1 votes that don't follow a pattern of mass downvotes or targeted downvotes, your 1 vote will likely be counted as valid.

I assume, if the story was bad enough to attract a 1 vote from me.
It got plenty from others as well.
As I said earlier, I'm no expert on the finer aspects of writing. The only thing that causes me to vote... Is... Poor storytelling.
I don't vote on content, or the ick factor. Purely story telling. Regardless of what it's about. If it's interesting. I'll read it...
I comment very little. Stories have to be incredibly good. Or oppositely. Incredibly bad...
In the last twelve months. I have probably voted 50 times. Of those 50. 3 were 1's...

Cagivagurl