Scottish dialect

[PrimalDual]

Hello, all. Is there a volunteer editor here who is well-versed in Scottish dialects? I wrote a story draft about a lusty tavern wench, hopefully with enough twists in the telling to make it an interesting variation on a tired theme (plus it's a subplot to a larger undertaking), and found myself in deeper than I should with her dialect. I used some guides I found online, but that's surely inadequate. Either I rip out a bunch, or hope that only perhaps a few knowledgeable readers will laugh at my mistakes, or else try to correct it. I'm leaning toward the latter if someone is willing to give my story (about 5000 words) a look. I'm overly enamored with her using terms like tadger and bahookie for body parts and "a wee nip" for a kiss, et cetera, if I can keep it from being too twee and precious. But I know I've probably committed one or more inauthentic usages, to put it mildly, or inconsistent use of one sub-dialect versus another, or terms that I overlooked that should have a Scottish version - and I think I'm still unclear on things like nae versus naw versus no'. Oh, in case it matters and is not obvious, I'm USian. So, already-long story not-short, if someone is good with this particular dialect, I'd love to hear from you, and thanks in advance!

 

[stickygirl]

Any advice I've seen regarding dialects is that they get old fast. Include a few marker posts at the start to make the dialect point then go back to regular English or you'll lost the interest of people wanting a story, not a compendium of Scots slang. A wee nip so far as I know is a small scotch. A tadger is a fairly generic UK term for dick... never heard of a bahookie

 

[AlinaX]

I can take a look, but I'm no expert. I grew up there, which is enough to know that Aberdeen and Glasgow have entirely different dialects.

But as stickygirl says, indulging in dialect just adds barriers to enjoyment, for most readers.

 

[KeithD]

I'd back out of anything more than a representational smattering of that dialect, if I were you. Read some Alexander McCall Smith.

 

[KentBloke]

I agree... although some of the great work by Burns is understood by many, some of the less common Scottosih terms are a complete mystery to anyone but native Scots from that specific region. Let's face it, the Sauchiehall Street Glaswegian dialect is very different from that of, say, that local to Inverness or John O'Groats (using some widely spread places as examples) in exactly that same way as English dialects from Norfolk, Devon or the Black Country differ so very much!
The comment above about Alexander McCall Smith is spot on... and remember, at least 80% of the point of writing is to ensure that your audience understands every word without having to refer to Google to work out what the words actually mean.
I was taught "classical" English at school as a youngster and I still find words in older books (mainly early works by classical writers such as Keats and Byron) that defeat me entirely!

 

[filipinamaria]

I agree... although some of the great work by Burns is understood by many, some of the less common Scottosih terms are a complete mystery to anyone but native Scots from that specific region. Let's face it, the Sauchiehall Street Glaswegian dialect is very different from that of, say, that local to Inverness or John O'Groats (using some widely spread places as examples) in exactly that same way as English dialects from Norfolk, Devon or the Black Country differ so very much!
The comment above about Alexander McCall Smith is spot on... and remember, at least 80% of the point of writing is to ensure that your audience understands every word without having to refer to Google to work out what the words actually mean.
I was taught "classical" English at school as a youngster and I still find words in older books (mainly early works by classical writers such as Keats and Byron) that defeat me entirely!

 

[filipinamaria]

My husband has a Scottish friend from Glasgow I love his accent but sometimes don’t understand him.

 

[PrimalDual]

Thanks everyone for your insights.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I could take a look - I've written a few Scottish characters as well as NI ones, and had people tell me I've done it well with nothing grating on them.

I agree less is better when writing.

Are you actually going for Ye Olde Merrie Scotlande of D&D fame (because no-one's talked about a lusty tavern wench since...), or attempting realistic modern Scotland? In which case, a wee nip is a small drink, probably whisky, rather than a kiss. Bahookie can be used to mean ass but I think it's quite a childish word, so most likely only in phrases like "get your bahookie in here!"

I can tell you when you've definitely got it wrong, and it's better to just go for standard English when unsure. PM me.

You'll get comments like "4 pages of UK shit" whether you do it well or badly...

 

[PrimalDual]

Kumquatqueen. Thank you. My current strategy, I think, will be to rip out ALL the dialect, and then suffer the slings and arrows when readers say "your tavern waitress [yes, current era, 1976 to be absurdly precise] sounds no different than the two midwestern American tourists chatting with her."

"Nae, laddie, doon't be usin' dialect, or yer tavern wench will be soondin' like Mr Scott on Star Trek."

To be less flippant, I might actually do this, and then invite some kind editor to read through and suggest sparing insertions that will give some authentic flavor without creeping out the majority of readers.

There is a slight age difference between characters, so Bahookie could be appropriate during their banter when anal sex is mentioned, but I'll have to think some more. I'm aiming for charming, not precious. There's a hint of satire behind my intent in writing - the lusty tavern wench is a pretty trite starting point for a story after all - but I don't want to overplay it.

 

[stickygirl]

Kumquatqueen. Thank you. My current strategy, I think, will be to rip out ALL the dialect, and then suffer the slings and arrows when readers say "your tavern waitress [yes, current era, 1976 to be absurdly precise] sounds no different than the two midwestern American tourists chatting with her."

"Nae, laddie, doon't be usin' dialect, or yer tavern wench will be soondin' like Mr Scott on Star Trek."

To be less flippant, I might actually do this, and then invite some kind editor to read through and suggest sparing insertions that will give some authentic flavor without creeping out the majority of readers.

There is a slight age difference between characters, so Bahookie could be appropriate during their banter when anal sex is mentioned, but I'll have to think some more. I'm aiming for charming, not precious. There's a hint of satire behind my intent in writing - the lusty tavern wench is a pretty trite starting point for a story after all - but I don't want to overplay it.

Googled bahookie... my scots from a the next gen up who were less inclined to be specific. Backside is what they'd say... 'Yank yer breeks up, we can awl see ya backside'

 

[PrimalDual]

Thanks, stickygirl. I'll keep this nuance in mind. I think a demure reference to one's "backside," when a slightly older man is suggesting anal insertion, should be possible. Can't help it, I love the word bahookie now that I know of it.

 

[KeithD]

Kumquatqueen. Thank you. My current strategy, I think, will be to rip out ALL the dialect, and then suffer the slings and arrows when readers say "your tavern waitress [yes, current era, 1976 to be absurdly precise] sounds no different than the two midwestern American tourists chatting with her."

Which is why I suggested reading Alexander McCall Smith. A Scott writing in Scottish settings about Scottish people and reaching an international best-selling audience. Because he's readable.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I've not read any of McCall Smith's works set in Scotland, only the ones in Botswana. But the bits of Sunday Philosophy Club I've seen seem very much that formal Edinburgh lady voice that's more English than the English. It's the surroundings more than the voices which seem Scottish. See also Muriel Spark.

Iain Banks and Christopher Brookmyre might be good to look at (plenty of pubs from the 70s, for starters) though neither did hugely well outside the UK. Ian Rankin's Rebus stories might be easier.

I wouldn't rip out all dialect either - it's the standard Scottish or British words for things which you'll need to make the story remotely convincing. But you could always have an unexpected non-Scottish barmaid and be pretty generic about the setting if it isn't actually that important.

 

[KeithD]

Is this some sort of in-house work being written just for Scots about Scotland? If not, the point I'm trying to make is that it's a myth that you need much of any dialect at all. Authors who actually best-seller sell, like Alexander McCall Smith (who, I count from the book list in the book I'm reading now, has published more than 30 books set in Scotland with Scots as characters), write for broad-based audiences that don't require a whole hell of a lot of this dialect business to make their characters acceptable. The world isn't that insular anymore. Easy connection with readers is more important than that. Are there plot requirements for phrases of the dialect?

 

[PrimalDual]

The story is now set in the US. Thank you all for your input.

 

[AlinaX]

Och, away wi ye.

 

[PrimalDual]

You dislike my solution? All things considered, it seems like the elegant measure to take.

 

[AlinaX]

Just joking. All that effort on getting the dialect, and then we make you flee the country...

 

[PrimalDual]

Just joking. All that effort on getting the dialect, and then we make you flee the country...

I'm glad to know it. Didn't like the idea of the conversation ending on bad terms. Next time I pick a setting, I'll try to have a better reason for it being there; a little social commentary on The Ugly American on Holiday Abroad was either too subtle or too hackneyed or too trenchant and might detract from the story. It proved embarrassingly easy to rip out the dialect and then find that there wasn't much left to that aspect. A rural area in the US will serve just as well if I want to highlight my rich protagonist behaving like an ass. An editor who had an early look pointed out the problem, and also a worse problem with the story resolution that will take more time to fix than ripping out dialect did. So, 1) the comments and advice here helped get where I needed to be, and 2) effort is never wasted and I think I learned some fun terms like Bahookie that I may try working into the conversation next chance my buttocks happen to be the topic (which is probably rarer than they deserve). Thanks again.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Hi all,

I realise this thread is probably finished, with OP finding a solution that works best for his story. I just wanted to throw my experiences in for anyone wrestling with this problem in the future.

I can read, write and speak Doric (the dialect of Scots in the North East), and have come into contact with lots of different dialects from around the world. In general, I find that people speak in their dialect to outsiders if...

1) they're of the older generation, and genuinely don't know how to speak the more traditional form of their language. In that case, you're going to need a translator, or learn more of the dialect yourself. Younger ones, with more access to media from other parts of the country (or even different countries), may start off a conversation in their dialect. But when they realise the visitor doesn't know what's being said, they soften it, or switch to something more understandable.

2) they're in the tourist industry. Speaking to visitors in a dialect does great business, as it's part of the experience many visitors are looking for. Even then, they're generally ready to switch to a more understandable form of language, to assist visitors.

3) they're being mischievous or malicious, and deliberately don't want the visitor to understand what they're saying.

4) They're proud of their roots, and are showing off.

5) they've accepted the visitor into the local community. "Och, ye might be from America, but you're one of us now."

6) The visitor has deliberately requested they speak in their dialect, in order to learn how to speak it themselves.


Also, there are generally three "degrees" of speaking a dialect.

Stage 1 - Full on: they speak rapidly and fluently in their dialect. For example, a Doric speaker might say, "We dinna tak' a' yon kind tae bein' callit a pokey wee back watter! It's guy wrang!"

Stage 2 - Softened: they mix their dialect in with other words from the language of their country, and speak a little slower. For example, the above speaker might realise the visitor doesn't understand them, and dials it back. They now say, "We dinna take kindly to bein' called a scabby wee back water! It's nae right!"

Stage 3 - Gone: they try to switch off their dialect completely (if they can), and speak the traditional language of their country as best they can. They may still have their accent, but they'll do their best to adjust. They now say, "We don't take kindly to bein' called a shabby little place in the middle of nowhere. It's completely wrong!"

I think for stories aimed at general readership, it's good to write Stage 2 and 3 for important characters, who often speak and want to be understood (Alexander McCall Smith does this in his books). For side characters, you can definitely write a Stage 1, but you'll need either another character to translate, or for them to voluntarily change how they speak.

And if anyone needs a Doric dialect for their stories, just let me know!

-6

I may just take you up on that sometime. I can understand Doric pretty well, especially in writing, but I know I'd make mistakes writing it myself. I thought about writing a character from Aberdeen but transplanted him to being from Fife instead.

 

[PrimalDual]

Hi all,

I realise this thread is probably finished, with OP finding a solution that works best for his story. I just wanted to throw my experiences in for anyone wrestling with this problem in the future.

I can read, write and speak Doric (the dialect of Scots in the North East), and have come into contact with lots of different dialects from around the world. In general, I find that people speak in their dialect to outsiders if...

1) they're of the older generation, and genuinely don't know how to speak the more traditional form of their language. In that case, you're going to need a translator, or learn more of the dialect yourself. Younger ones, with more access to media from other parts of the country (or even different countries), may start off a conversation in their dialect. But when they realise the visitor doesn't know what's being said, they soften it, or switch to something more understandable.

2) they're in the tourist industry. Speaking to visitors in a dialect does great business, as it's part of the experience many visitors are looking for. Even then, they're generally ready to switch to a more understandable form of language, to assist visitors.

3) they're being mischievous or malicious, and deliberately don't want the visitor to understand what they're saying.

4) They're proud of their roots, and are showing off.

5) they've accepted the visitor into the local community. "Och, ye might be from America, but you're one of us now."

6) The visitor has deliberately requested they speak in their dialect, in order to learn how to speak it themselves.


Also, there are generally three "degrees" of speaking a dialect.

Stage 1 - Full on: they speak rapidly and fluently in their dialect. For example, a Doric speaker might say, "We dinna tak' a' yon kind tae bein' callit a pokey wee back watter! It's guy wrang!"

Stage 2 - Softened: they mix their dialect in with other words from the language of their country, and speak a little slower. For example, the above speaker might realise the visitor doesn't understand them, and dials it back. They now say, "We dinna take kindly to bein' called a scabby wee back water! It's nae right!"

Stage 3 - Gone: they try to switch off their dialect completely (if they can), and speak the traditional language of their country as best they can. They may still have their accent, but they'll do their best to adjust. They now say, "We don't take kindly to bein' called a shabby little place in the middle of nowhere. It's completely wrong!"

I think for stories aimed at general readership, it's good to write Stage 2 and 3 for important characters, who often speak and want to be understood (Alexander McCall Smith does this in his books). For side characters, you can definitely write a Stage 1, but you'll need either another character to translate, or for them to voluntarily change how they speak.

And if anyone needs a Doric dialect for their stories, just let me know!

-6

For no good reason, the setting had been in a (fictional) rural area somewhere east of Ayr. I suppose I could have moved it further north and east to accommodate a knowledgeable reviewer. The original setting in Scotland was because I thought it might be fun, but the feedback I was getting was that it was less fun than I imagined.

The character in question, being a "lusty young tavern wench" who turns out to be just as much of a prostitute as the clueless American tourist had assumed her to be, might have any combination of several of the reasons you mentioned to play up her accent, including that she's merely having a laugh at his expense while playing him.

The story evolved, in the meantime. Now, there might be an actual good storytelling reason for her to slip into an overwrought accent for a period of time, only to revert right back unexpectedly, as a cue to the reader. Still, I think a rural US accent serves the same purpose.

Thanks again for all the feedback.