PayPal and Censorship

[oggbashan]

From my bookdealing trade e-mail:

Comment
Another week, another 'big-brother' news item. Readers will remember how Amazon arbitrarily removed copies of 1984 and Animal Farm from Kindle users - only later to return the titles and compensate users. Then Apple had an issue with German newspapers over nudity and later backtracked. Then there is the ongoing conflict in the USA where Amazon is in dispute over collecting state taxes.

We have publishers withdrawing e-books from Amazon, and there's an internecine row where author Seth Godin's new book Stop Selling Dreams is not available in the iBookstore because the bibliography contains links to books on Amazon. Read more. There have also been other examples leading up to last week's news.

This week, we learn that card companies and banks are putting pressure on PayPal - widely used by our readers - to cease allowing transactions by publishers when the book being sold contains 'erotic' material. These sales are quite legal even if many do not want to read them. PayPal is contesting the issue but the move is a 'slippery slope' towards widespread censorship.

But the over-riding issue is that we are witnessing, for whatever reasons, pan-national companies attempting to dictate their own rules over national laws. Should we be fearing these companies more than nation states? What can national governments do to combat this trend?

The news that Firefox has developed a programme to expose the 'watchers' - businesses and websites that send cookies to your PC when you access their websites is good news. They may be harmless but the user should have the right to see when they are present. If it is illegal for a commercial company to listen in on your private telephone conversation, or for someone to open another person's mail, surely such practices on the Internet should come under the same laws?

...!

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NEWS


International: PayPal and Censorship
News of another 'big-brother' incident has come to our attention. It is certainly troubling sellers and the central companies involved - PayPal and Smashwords [a USA-based company which specialises in selling e-publications for publishers). But it is not PayPal that is driving this censorship - it is a group of banks and credit card companies which are placing pressure on PayPal.

Two weeks ago, PayPal contacted Smashwords and gave the company a surprise ultimatum: Remove all titles containing bestiality, rape or incest, otherwise the company's PayPal account would be deactivated. Discussions have taken place since this was instruction was issued and at the moment, a reprieve has been give until a suitable solution can be reached.

As Smashwords see the problem - 'PayPal is asking us to censor legal fiction. Regardless of how one views topics of rape, bestiality and incest, these topics are pervasive in mainstream fiction. We believe this crackdown is really targeting erotica writers. This is unfair, and it marks a slippery slope. We don't want credit card companies or financial institutions telling our authors what they can write and what readers can read. Fiction is fantasy. It's not real. It's legal.'


International: Firefox outs the watchers
Mozilla, the maker of Firefox, has unveiled a new add-on for the popular web browser that gives web users an instant view of which companies are 'watching' them as they browse. The news broke soon after Google pushed ahead with its controversial new privacy policy, which we reported on last week.

The add-on, called Collusion, is likely to be warmly welcomed by users everywhere. As anyone knows who owns and runs anti-malware programmes there are always numerous hidden links left on your PC after visiting websites most of which are harmless.

 

[sr71plt]

Hmmm. Where have you (and the UK) been for the past two weeks, Ogg?

 

[lovecraft68]

Posting this for anyone here who cares enough to make an effort.

Paypal is beginning to fold faster than superman on laundry day

http://www.smashwords.com/about/beta

read the 3/8 updates. Click the link and read Pay pal's first public statement. They are back tracking, pretty much saying they didn;t realize how the market had changed since they put in their policies.

Go to the previous days and click the blog where a SW author finds the topics Paypal wants banned listed on E-bay their parent company.

At the bottom of the 3/8 updates is a link to a "letter" that you can sign that goes straight to Paypal. I suggest anyone who wants to do more than whine and talk put their name there.

Also there has still yet to be any type of statement from a bank or CC company backing paypal up. Call your visa/Mc and ask what their policy is against adult or "objectionable" material see what they say.

I did, and they are not saying what paypal is saying.

As long as people keep making noise and signing petitions, Paypal will recant this ridiculous policy.

They may very well be in their rights to do this, but that is not the picture the net or ACLU or others supporting that letter are painting. all people see is Paypal/censorship and jump on the wagon.

In fact the only people not jumping that wagon and fighting are the people here in the AH, the people one would think would be making a hue and cry.

But with the exception of a handful here it's roll over and play dead.

Better yet the ones who want to fight it are mocked by the ones who lack the conviction to do anything, but cower and yap like dogs from the shadows of their masters.

 

[oggbashan]

Hmmm. Where have you (and the UK) been for the past two weeks, Ogg?

It (PayPal) had not been affecting the UK, only the US.

UK restrictions on erotica are less enforceable than those in the UK (and we don't have a Bible Belt).

 

[sr71plt]

So much for the magestic "forever because I've been abused" departure with trumpets and elephants and dancing pigs.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So much for the magestic "forever because I've been abused" departure with trumpets and elephants and dancing pigs.

I loved the little tutus on those pigs.

 

[estragon]

LC68, are you back? I thought you couldn't stay away from this loony bin.

 

[PennLady]

FYI, this is from the PayPal blog entry cited in the link that LC linked to above.

Here are the facts. Unlike many other online payment providers, PayPal does allow its service to be used for the sale of erotic books. PayPal is a strong and consistent supporter of openness on the Internet, freedom of expression, independent publishing and eBook marketplaces. We believe that the Internet empowers authors in a way that is positive and points to an even brighter future for writers, artists and creators the world over, but we draw the line at certain adult content that is extreme or potentially illegal.

An important factor in our decision not to allow our payments service to be used to purchase material focused on rape, incest or bestiality is that this category of eBooks often includes images.

This type of content also sometimes intentionally blurs the line between fiction and non-fiction. Both these factors are problematic from a legal and risk perspective.

Those last two graphs are interesting. So if you wrote an incest book with no pictures, you'd be okay in terms of their use policy?

 

[sr71plt]

I think Paypal's problem (and that of many of the distributors and e-publishers) is in the scaredy cat "everything and the kitchen sink" definitions of incest and rape at the moment. First, both are strong dilemma elements for fiction (and the mainstream is using them left and right for that without a bit of hassle from the those hassling erotica uses of them). They mouth that the depiction has to be sexually titilating to be banned, but then then include what is simply strong description to then be a motivator to propel the character out of the situation.

They willy-nilly ban pseudoincest, to include adults not related to blood to each other (e.g., step and related through adoption), when the actual incest laws rarely even include blood-related cousins. There are, of course, two modes of incestuous situations--physically based (related by blood) and psychologically based (established parent-child relationships not involving blood relationships). The first is a distinction in law that the distributors--interpreting what they think Paypal is telling them--fail to limit their banning to. The pyschological aspect is one that, indeed, should be considered--but isn't really being considered at all by the distributors. If children are involved to an attempt to mealymouth that children are involved, fine, ban it. For underage. If they clearly are adults in a relationship, the definitions of what to ban should follow prevailing law (yes, maybe the most stringent state law in the States, if it's published in the States.)

They are overreacting--and on that basis, I think it's probably the distributors people should be arguing with, not Paypal.

I've had a series of books questioned by ARE, for instance, on the underage thing because "older-younger" was included in the tags. That doesn't ipso facto mean underage, though--and it doesn't in any of my books. I'm going after fetish of the middle-aged getting it on with twenty somethings. The suggestion was to change the tag to "age difference." Well, OK (although I suggested to the publisher just dropping the tag altogether), but this is a distributor knee-jerk reaction to something I don't think is really being required by anyone--certainly not by law.

So, hassle the distributors (and publishers) as much as Paypal in this, I suggest.

Yes, if the book has images, consider it for banning--but that's because there are separate, more stringent, laws for images. Not because Paypal won't handle incest or rape prose.

 

[R. Richard]

Those last two graphs are interesting. So if you wrote an incest book with no pictures, you'd be okay in terms of their use policy?

I had incest stories, in Smashwords, which contained no pictures. They had to be removed (at least for now,) because of PayPal. The real problem is not with PayPal but with the credit card companies. The credit card companies were, apparently, getting way too many chargebacks for e-books with incest themes. Thus, the credit card companies started charging PayPal really high fees for incest themed stories. PayPal could no longer make a profit on incest themed e-books. Thus, despite many protests (mine included,) PayPal still has problems with incest themed e-books.

 

[sr71plt]

PayPal could no longer make a profit on incest themed e-books.

They could if they just used the time-honored business procedure of passing the cost on to the consumer of that element of their business (or, better yet in the good old business tradition, using that as an excuse to jack up fees across the board). Since they didn't try that first, I think it's only one aspect of what's going on.

 

[ManhattanMinx]

I had incest stories, in Smashwords, which contained no pictures. They had to be removed (at least for now,) because of PayPal. The real problem is not with PayPal but with the credit card companies. The credit card companies were, apparently, getting way too many chargebacks for e-books with incest themes. Thus, the credit card companies started charging PayPal really high fees for incest themed stories. PayPal could no longer make a profit on incest themed e-books. Thus, despite many protests (mine included,) PayPal still has problems with incest themed e-books.

Thanks for this info, Richard. It always comes down to money.

 

[lovecraft68]

I had incest stories, in Smashwords, which contained no pictures. They had to be removed (at least for now,) because of PayPal. The real problem is not with PayPal but with the credit card companies. The credit card companies were, apparently, getting way too many chargebacks for e-books with incest themes. Thus, the credit card companies started charging PayPal really high fees for incest themed stories. PayPal could no longer make a profit on incest themed e-books. Thus, despite many protests (mine included,) PayPal still has problems with incest themed e-books.

First off, I have no idea why your incest e-books were removed from Smashwords. Paypal extended the deadline with no date in sight yet and so did Mark Coker. There are incest books for sale there as we speak.

And again, will someone else besides me get on the horn with a CC compnay and talk about this?

yes the chargebacks on adult purchases are higher, b ut because the CC companies know damn well these are legit purchases and they are being screwed by hubby or wifey lying to their other half about a purchase.

I was told that the most common adult related chargeback is the infamous signing up for the 2-3 day porn membership and forgetting to cancel in time. The card gets whacked the monthly price and the person tries to worm out of it.

the easy fix on this is for the CC companies to not honor these claims. If there are no fraudulent purchases before or after the e-book, vibrator, porn membership, then guess what? It's a legit purchase and you and your spouse have something to talk about. It is not the onus of the CC company to protect a spouses indiscretions.

And again, no one has been able to come up with anything from a CC company backing PP's claims. so either PP is lying as they have a history of, or the CC companies let them lead the charge to see what happens.

On another note although I have no proof to back it up, I refuse they were losing money on incest books. Those things sell like wildfire. they certainly sell well enough to eat some charge backs. Paypal will lose money not gain on this.

And know who will be getting that money? The very credit card companies they are claiming they are blaming. If paypal won;t let me purchase a book on SW or anywhere else I'll use my CC or my debit card. PP loses the transaction.

They are going to back down on this. They moved their deadline back 13 days ago and have not said a word about a new one. Their circling the wagons and trying to save face.