Dusty just made me wonder this

How many subs are ex-cutters?

I am an ex-cutter, I'm not proad nor ashamed of it, but I do realize that it helped me get through a pretty rough childhood.

I'm not a cutter per say, but I did do this nasty thing with safety pins to my arms. I could actually shove a safety pins through my arms and close them.

That being said I don't really think my self mutalizations have anything to do with my BDSM lifestyle now. I also don't believe the abuse I suffered has a whole lot to do with it either, since I had cravings to be tied up long before I was molested.

I do however believe that my abuse arrested my sexual development and made it next to impossible to show this side of myself to my Man for many many years.

I'm not a cutter and haven't done any other forms of self-mutilation besides pick at my big toenail when i'm nervous. (Does that count?)

However, i know two others here who are or have been cutters.

Interesting topic.

Perhaps, raindancer or one of our other social worker posters can speak more articulately to this issue.

However, "cutters" are often individuals who face depression. The actual cutting releases seratonin and lightens the depression, lightening the spirit, reminding a depressed teen that they are still alive., capable of feeling, moving and living.


Could there be a connection to seratonin uptake and BDSM activities?


Very thought provoking and I will revisit this thread after doing a bit of research on teh topic.

IF there is anything out there!

Please, understand, I am not presuming anything about lilfrk or lilred. I am just posting as someone who has spent many years working with troubled youth and a large number of "cutters."

I guess what I am wondering is if we (some not all) as cutters have built a trigger/switch within our selves, that allows us a more open mental state when we sense physical pain.

My former submissive had a history of self mutilation, which was, as Miss T points out, a symptom of depression.
While I don't see a general corelation between the urge to cut oneself and a desire for submission, some people who cut will also see BDSM and especially extreme sensation play,as another aspect of the same impulse.
I am not a psychologist and I cant give advice on the topic in detail, nor am I inclined to discuss her situation in any detail, but I want to make the point that BDSM is not therapy and should never be used as a substitute for therapy.

oh no... I am not saying that at all, I'm just wondering if we make ourselves more sensory focused. I know for myself I have to see, touch, feel, smell, and taste things, just seeing something isn't enough for me. I am a sensory being.

Speaking for myself only, I think it is the chemical release.

Normally I cut to punish myself for getting mad or for being what I perceive is bad. I also cut myself when I feel like I am out of control, because cutting and my body are things that I control. Another reason I cut is when I am feeling numb. It helps me to see that I am still alive and capable of having sensation as well as emotion. I went through 4 years of not being allowed to feel emotion outside of cutting. I also went through 4 years of almost complete silence. I wasn't allowed to talk really. Every time I opened my mouth I was shut down by my partner. She would tell me "Shut up, I don't want to hear your stupid shit. Your intellectual bullshit means nothing to me so go away. Keep talking I'll rip your tongue out." etc etc etc.

So in a sense, cutting was a catharsis for me.

But today, I see that is about release. I have cut once since I got my first flogging/beating. Cutting didn't do the same for me as it had before. Yet, I realized that I got a better sensation from being beat because I was happy afterwards. So... The solution fo me is...... *insert drumroll here*

Weekly beatings... It takes away the need for release. If I go more than 7 days without it I can feel the urge to cut building up again.

Dustygrrl said:

So in a sense, cutting was a catharsis for me.

But today, I see that is about release. I have cut once since I got my first flogging/beating. Cutting didn't do the same for me as it had before. Yet, I realized that I got a better sensation from being beat because I was happy afterwards. So... The solution fo me is...... *insert drumroll here*

Weekly beatings... It takes away the need for release. If I go more than 7 days without it I can feel the urge to cut building up again.

Click to expand...

OMG that is truly frightening to me. You need to seek professional help to deal with the damage that was and is being done to you. You are using physical pain to mask your emotional pain and that just isn't healthy. You have just changed methods from cutting to flogging. Sort of like an addict trading one addiction for another.


*edited because I can't freakin spell after being up all damn night*

lilfrk said:

OMG that is truly frightening to me. You need to seek professional help to deal with the damage that was and is being done to you. You are using physical pain to mask your emtional pain and that just isn't healthy. You have just changed methods from cutting to flogging. Sort of like an addict trading one addiction for another.

Click to expand...

Good post, lilfrk and I second it.

As with many sensory experiences, once we have engaged in one thing often enough, we need more.

Pm me if you want to talk, Dusty. I am very concerned.

hugs

Miss T

lilfrk said:

OMG that is truly frightening to me. You need to seek professional help to deal with the damage that was and is being done to you. You are using physical pain to mask your emotional pain and that just isn't healthy. You have just changed methods from cutting to flogging. Sort of like an addict trading one addiction for another.


*edited because I can't freakin spell after being up all damn night*

Click to expand...

Umm ummm... Let me rephrase what I said last night. To me cutting isn't painful. I don't feel a single thing when I do it. Take your deepest headspace from a D/s scene and multiply it times 5. That's where I am when I cut. Yes, it's very dangerous because I don't feel anything except the endorphins once I am coming out of my bad state of mind. I learned early on to dissociate myself from bad things, which I know is bad but I'm working on that too. I was doing this at the age of 4. *sighs*

Being flogged on the other hand, yes, I feel that and I enjoy it of course. For me being flogged is a VERY positive thing because I am praised as it is happening and given lots of attention once it is over. Something that is very good for me emotionally and stays with me for awhile. And of course, the chemical release isn't so bad either That usually keeps my spirits lifted for a good 4-5 days.

Still worried about me after reading this? I never realized I sounded so pathetic, I apologize.

On the danger of kidnapping this thread ...

Hello all you wonderful honest and open people,

I bow to those of you who on this and other threads have been pulling the veil of some of the most horrible experiences I can imagine.

Alas, the longer I am hanging out at Lit (and other BDSM-related sites), the more I DO get the impression thet indeed the majority of people in the lifestyle is

a) either suffering from depressions or other forms of self-estimate problems

or is

b) having an abusive history somewhere down the line of their lives

I personally never suffered one or the other. Abuse, mentally or physically, is totally alien to my own experience. So I slowly start to wonder how many of us REALLY are "out there" that don't have a "record" (for lack of a better word - excuse my English). I know most of you said somewhere along that line of discussion that the abuse experience doesn't necessarrily have to do with your sexual inclination, but the sheer amount of "coincidence" just seems to jump into my face to be honest.

So either I have had a very shelterd life (including pretty much everyone I know with a VERY few exceptions) and there is the same amount of "abuse-records" in 'nilla world (just without being reveiled to my eyes), or it is a different problem in Europe compared to the US? Or I am beginning to see a pattern there - liking it or not ...

Sorry - but I just had to spontaneously ask... as I said, I can so totally NOT even remotely grasp the concept of abuse you wouldn't believe it.

lilredwolph said:

oh no... I am not saying that at all, I'm just wondering if we make ourselves more sensory focused. I know for myself I have to see, touch, feel, smell, and taste things, just seeing something isn't enough for me. I am a sensory being.

Click to expand...

If this reply was directed towards my post, let me clarify that my comments were in regard to those who are using both cutting and bdsm a response to depression, and not meant to be all inclusive , or directed towards any one individual.

Re: On the danger of kidnapping this thread ...

Hecate said:

Hello all you wonderful honest and open people,

I bow to those of you who on this and other threads have been pulling the veil of some of the most horrible experiences I can imagine.

Alas, the longer I am hanging out at Lit (and other BDSM-related sites), the more I DO get the impression thet indeed the majority of people in the lifestyle is

a) either suffering from depressions or other forms of self-estimate problems

or is

b) having an abusive history somewhere down the line of their lives

I personally never suffered one or the other. Abuse, mentally or physically, is totally alien to my own experience. So I slowly start to wonder how many of us REALLY are "out there" that don't have a "record" (for lack of a better word - excuse my English). I know most of you said somewhere along that line of discussion that the abuse experience doesn't necessarrily have to do with your sexual inclination, but the sheer amount of "coincidence" just seems to jump into my face to be honest.

So either I have had a very shelterd life (including pretty much everyone I know with a VERY few exceptions) and there is the same amount of "abuse-records" in 'nilla world (just without being reveiled to my eyes), or it is a different problem in Europe compared to the US? Or I am beginning to see a pattern there - liking it or not ...

Sorry - but I just had to spontaneously ask... as I said, I can so totally NOT even remotely grasp the concept of abuse you wouldn't believe it.

Click to expand...

i would hesitate to say a majority of BDSM practioners have a history that includes abuse, but I would certainly say that there they constitute a significant part of the population within BDSM.

On the other hand, isn't this true of any sexual preference? It seems to me that victims of abuse form a significant part of the 'nilla world, of the BDSM world, and of all the other "worlds" that are out there. Perhaps this is more a comment on the sheer number and variety of abuse victims and their responses than it is a comment on BDSM as a catharsis or a mask for abuse-related depression.

I guess this doesn't quite belong on a cutting thread, but since it was this thread that got me thinking in these directions, I figured I'd post it here.

Hmmm not sure what to say here....

My cutting is under control now. But when it was bad was when I was at my lowest of lows. When I was not allowed to feel emotions that became my emotion. A way that I could really feel my pain since I wasn't allowed to speak. Or even to cry. It's the only way I knew of dealing with things. Not the best way of dealing with stuff but it was better than the alternative of shutting down completely and letting myself die

If that makes sense?

Isn't stirring the best way to heat up discussion? I think this thread is a fascinating one.

Personally I know many abuse survivors that have gone to walk the 'nilla line, because they learned they did not, do not, and will not like pain in any form. I don't know any personally that have chose to walk the path that I have chosen for myself.

I am a abuse survivor, not a victim but a survivor, and yes I am an ex-cutter, do I think or feel that I entered a BDSM lifestyle because I am either of those things? No. Do I think or feel that those things showed me a side of myself that otherwise I may have never known? Yes

Through the abuse I learned bad things happen to good people, and bad happens do not make a good person bad. I seen that I was strong and able to be me no matter what outside forces said. I also learned that pain caused by anger could not be controlled by me, but other things could be.

I have to say I am not a typical survivor most don't learn they are good, strong or in control of anything. Most learn the exact opposite. I refused to be blinded and accept what I was being force feed to me. I chose to learn from everything, and I would spend many hours, days and weeks in my head looking for the lesson.

With cutting I learned that pain could be controlled and not all pain was bad, and yes at the time I was doing it for reasons that were not so good, but I did learn from it. When I learned pain could be controlled I started to teach myself other ways to control it and how to incorporate it with other feelings, sensations and emotions. All of this took years, now I knew that I liked pain/pleasure, hot/cold, soft/hard ect... I had turned myself into a sensory being.

I was far beyond my past when I started to bring my sensory self into the bedroom, so was I trading one pain for the other? No I don't believe I was or am. I can only say, I learned many good lessons from bad things, and I know if not for the things that have been my past I would not be who and what I am in the present, and I am Happy with myself.

True to myself always,
lilred

What a fascinating thread. I must admit it hit too close to home for me. I think I need to toughen up emotionally. It hurts me to hear/read about abuse.

I may be off base here but I know lots of cutters who are nilla too. JMHO but there are so many forms of abuse, and so many abused, it stands to reason there would be survivors in all walks of life.

Hecate mentioned Depressives, and I feel a need to put my Two Cents' in on that front. I was never abused, but have known a few abused people, so I don't feel qualified to speak on the original thread topic of cutting. Please forgive the digression.

I think of my self as a recovering manic-depressive, since I'm through letting it control my life. It's kind of like alcoholism in one regard, though. It's always right there, waiting for me to wallow and indulge. Depression is, in my case, a choice. I can either heed its call and lose my life again, or I can live a life, build it and forge it for myself. I choose to live.

BDSM is not an escape for me, nor is it an easy route to endorphins. It's something I feel in my heart. It's not a place to hide from myself, it's a place to explore myself.

For now, anyway. When I have an SO again, it'll probably be about sweaty fun, too.

I don't know about anyone else's depressive pasts, nor do I want to, unless they feel comfortable sharing. I wonder if it's a function of intelligence: the impulse to depression, the call of BDSM. Or am I fulla crapola?

Again, if this is a hijacking, I sincerely apologise, and return you to your regular thread, without interruption.

Still worried about me after reading this?

Quite honestly yes I am. I also just read your post on the GB so maybe that is part of my worry.

I'm frightened for you because you seem to just be going from a bad place into something that might be a good one if you were whole, but you aren't whole. A broken person can't enter into a healthy relationship, it just doesn't work that way. It's like you're searching for something or someone to make you whole.

You count on endorphin rushes to make you feel good instead of working on yourself as a person. That is a very dangerous thing. That high is such a lovely high and it feels so nice to be there. But when it's gone the hurt, emotional and physical comes back even stronger.

You say your cutting is under control now but only because you have your weekly "beatings". What would happen if you didn't have those weekly "beating"? My guess is you'd cut again or search out some other type of endorphin rush to get that good feeling, to regain that control you think you're losing. It's just easier than dealing with the actual feelings that are cropping up.

I have absolutely positively been where you are Dusty and let me tell you it is the most fucking scary place I've ever been. Wishing, wanting, praying to feel anything. Wanting more than anything in the whole wide world that someone or something would come along and make me feel better. Knowing I was broken and I just couldn't see fit to fix it.

I was and am the luckiest chic around if you ask me. I found a person willing to put up with my bullshit. Why he did I'll never know. But he didn't fix me, BDSM didn't fix me. I fixed me.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your new found lifestyle and relationship. I honestly hope that it fills the hole in your soul that you need it to.

Be Well.

(Sorry for this long hijacked post, I didn't know where else to put it.)

I, for one, can't think of any Russian authors who would disagree with SpectreT about intelligence/awareness/reflection causing depression. (Tee hee... wayyyy off topic!)

Ah, but it's so difficult actually to agree with that idea. Particularly as it applies to BDSM. As soon as I catch myself thinking, "Only smart people lead lives similar to mine," my 'Goody Two Shoes' conscience kicks in, and I promtly change my mind.

I think it would be fair to entertain thoughts regarding correlation. I say this only because of my own experience. Of the submissive women that I've talked with, those that were involved in edgeplay, heavy masochism, and the like were often past self mutilators. Self mutilization, self injury, cutting- all forms fulfill a need as a result of;
* Inability to feel
* Feeling too much
*Inability to handle any kind of feeling
*Wanting to feel something
*Relief from mounting tension and/or pain

And, a majority have been physically or sexually abused.
How does this play into BDSM involvement? Well, one can look at it from various viewpoints. Healing? Second chance to rewrite history? A need for intense dynamic with relationships? Pain=pleasure? I don't want to lump all into a group.
I think I may do some research regarding these topics.
Great thread!

Dusty, I've been there. Your whole series of posts hits very close to home for me.

Self-mutilation? Check.
Bad experiences? Check.
Hurting myself as punishment? Check.
Hurting myself to feel something, anything? Check.

I've engaged in self-mutilating activities since I was a child. I have burned, cut, and beaten myself. I have bruised, scarred, and internally damaged myself. I have also had those things done to me by others against my will. I don't have the words to articulate the difference between my actions and those forced upon me, nor can I explain why it worked (and still works, at times) as a catharsis and reassurance for me. I do know that it wasn't all about depression. For such a verbose person, I'm shocking without words about it, though.

I don't have the answers, hon. I wish I did. But I'm just living, and trying like hell to choose my actions--even my mistakes--rather than just letting things happen to me, or taking actions without examining them. I hope that you're doing the same, and I wish you all the best.

Re: Still worried about me after reading this?

lilfrk said:

Quite honestly yes I am. I also just read your post on the GB so maybe that is part of my worry.

I'm frightened for you because you seem to just be going from a bad place into something that might be a good one if you were whole, but you aren't whole. A broken person can't enter into a healthy relationship, it just doesn't work that way. It's like you're searching for something or someone to make you whole.

You count on endorphin rushes to make you feel good instead of working on yourself as a person. That is a very dangerous thing. That high is such a lovely high and it feels so nice to be there. But when it's gone the hurt, emotional and physical comes back even stronger.

You say your cutting is under control now but only because you have your weekly "beatings". What would happen if you didn't have those weekly "beating"? My guess is you'd cut again or search out some other type of endorphin rush to get that good feeling, to regain that control you think you're losing. It's just easier than dealing with the actual feelings that are cropping up.

I have absolutely positively been where you are Dusty and let me tell you it is the most fucking scary place I've ever been. Wishing, wanting, praying to feel anything. Wanting more than anything in the whole wide world that someone or something would come along and make me feel better. Knowing I was broken and I just couldn't see fit to fix it.

I was and am the luckiest chic around if you ask me. I found a person willing to put up with my bullshit. Why he did I'll never know. But he didn't fix me, BDSM didn't fix me. I fixed me.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your new found lifestyle and relationship. I honestly hope that it fills the hole in your soul that you need it to.

Be Well.

(Sorry for this long hijacked post, I didn't know where else to put it.)

Click to expand...

Forgive me for my two posts on here... My first was tongue in cheek with the comment on weekly beatings. I went 2 whole months without a single cut or the craving to cut prior to my first ever D/s experience. I apologize, I guess my sense of humor is a bit warped right now. I will admit that these last few weeks have been very hard for me because my ex partner has been stalking/harassing me. But prior to that I was doing really well. The only time I have issues with wanting to cut is when things are going poorly. But we are working on ways to help me cope with emotions and such without wanting to cut.

I am so very close to being a whole person and to tell you the truth, the idea that you think I am not is a bit hurtful to me because I have been working so very hard on myself to heal and get to where I need to be. Aside from a few minor setbacks with the cutting I think I am doing absolutely wonderful and making remarkable progress. I've self injured in various ways since our neighbor started molesting at the age of 4 to the age of 7. So it is a long road for me to completely remove this stimulus from my life. But damnit, I can do it and I will do it. It's only normal for setbacks to occur and given the face of my health concerns and other things I think I am doing damn well....
Sorry if I am coming across as abrasive but this is just how I feel.

Oh.. and I can really live without the chemical release and stimulation... I'm really ok... My life is good and I will continually be working to heal myself.