Pushing hard limits

Disclaimer: This has absolutely no intent of having anything to do with a recent post where this activity was mentioned. Anyone involved with that thread can take it personally if they want to, but it really has nothing to do with you at all unless you choose to make it so.


As you can see, this activity was recently mentioned. It never occurred to me that hard limits could be pushed. Perhaps my utter naivete makes it blissfully otherwise.

Do hard limits gets pushed? What's the protocol on this? I think hard limits probably change with time, so how is this negotiated? Any long insightful ramblings vastly appreciated.

Yes, hard limits get pushed. This can be both good or bad depending on the limits and the reasons for the limits.
If the hard limit is pushed in a loving and gentle way if that is possible it could be very positive. Most hard limits are based on fear and emotion. By slowly pushing these limits the person might overcome their fears.
When I first entered into the D/s lifestyle I had some very clear limits, but many of these are being negotiated. Alot of my hard limits are based on fear. For example, I am terrified of riding crops due to a bad experience, but my Domme friend that I have been staying with took me to a tack shop and we found a very nice blue nylon crop, very unintimidating. It will be used on my very gently at first and working up to harder play with it, with much reassurance on her part as it is used. The fact of the matter is that I trust her and know that even though it scares me I will be ok.

A good example of pushing hard limits: Saturday night we went to PEP, and I was being given a birthday thrashing. I'd had a really bad night because my evil ex called me from a friend's house and hurt me very bad emotionally. Therefore I asked to be beat hard. Because of my ex I have a real problem with my hair being pulled. It's a hard limit for me. BUT... As I was being warmed up for my birthday thrashing my Domme friend presses her body against mine (I was on a St. Andrew's Cross) and started breathing slowly in my ear, encouraging me to follow her breathing, then she started running her hands through my hair, which is something that I absolutely love. She then grabbed my hair on the back of my head and very gently pulled my head back towards hers and whispered "I'm going to whip you savagely"
My fear was gone in an instant and I liked it. She handled me expertly and therefore helped me to get over my fear, like any good Domme would. She pushed the limit knowing that it was a very hard one for me, but in a way that it would not harm me in any way.

I don't think that there is any protocol for pushing hard limits, and the way that it is done will greatly depend on the person it is being done to. For me, it's better if I don't know that the limit is going to be pushed because that way I can't worry about it and be nervous. If it is just done then it is over with and we are both happy. Other people need to know ahead of time.

Ummm.. does this make sense?

Pushing hard limits - a strictly personal view

Yes - hard limits are pushed - I push ALL limits, soft ones , hard ones .. and I CAREFULLY watch how far they "give" .. they give, I push a little further ....

It is like a rubber band - looks tight at first - but if you pull and push a little it will give .. a little .. and then a little more ... the further you push/pull the harder it will get .. and eventually it won't give anymore ...

Limits are like that ... the harder ones are a stronger rubber band though *S* You want to push them a lot slower and more carefull - just like a rubber band they may all of a sudden a re - reaction (for lack of the appropriate english word) and smack you right into the face! BAD MOVE!

ok - end of metapher.....

The whole "pushing / pulling of the rubber band" is of course to be seen as a lot of conversation - exchanging feelings and sentiments/resentments in regards to the particular limit that is supposed to be tackled.

No matter what - a NO is a NO ... but at times "NO" turns into "no" turns into "uhmmmm , maybe" ... and that is when you want to discover and explore that new realm. In a BDSM realation (just as in any other relation) you grow and when trust and confidence into each other grow both may feel inclined to let the more adventurous side come out to play *s* in the sense of the word.

I think specially in BDSM world there are many things that are seeming to be exciting as a fantasy - but then turn out not to be once you try them for real .. so you just tick off the experience and discard that activity. On the other side even "we BDSM'ers" are not safe from conditioning and educated patterns - and those are not simply overwritten. But as time passes and we get more secure in our sexuality and our roles as sub or Dom we might be able to step over those shadows of former teaching and feel, even if reluctant, the will, desire, to see for ourselves what certainn things will be like ... as I said - something you wanted badly you didn't like after all - so couldn't there be the things you thought were NO NO's but after trying could turn out fun? And you want to know - with a partner you trust , a partner you can rely on pulling the emergency brake at any time the situation turns into crisis ....

Pushing hard limits can be liberating - specilly if those "hard limits" are set up by other pepole (read: society and education) and not by ourselves, so I advise a little pushing from time to time.

PS: if the pushing doesn't work then there is no problem - simply let the rubber band contract to its former position again, but at least you will know you tried.

My view - please don't get upset with me!!

I guess this is the problem with only getting words on a screen and not emotion and faces but some of the examples people have posted here and elsewhere I wouldn't descirbe as hard limits. They would go down as 0 on my scale - I absolutly hate this and it has no sexual thrill for me at all - that can be pushed - I may not like it and my Dom/me would have to be very careful about trying to push those limits but it can be done.

A hard limit is something like 'sex with a child', I WILL NOT do this. Any attempt to make me or even to raise the idea is not going any where, another one for me is forced anal - and i do mean forced - not pretend or lubed up fake rape or even rough sex I mean Anal sex when I am unprepared and don't particulary want it - no-one could do that to me and expect the relationship to survive. Fcrced vaginal penetration although something I woudln't enjoy has not the same issues.

Family/incest scenes are a hard limit for me - I could not be brought into playing around this topic without severe and lasting mental trauma.

Maybe mine don't sound that bad to someone else, theres just a very clear line for me, a hard limit is something that I woudl never expect anyone to push for me. (and I do say this to my partner/s) They then have a whole list of other things which can potentially be pushed - again very carefully.

Pushing hard limits...

I don't, mainly because my subs have so few and the ones they have are in the realm that just does not interest Me.

I choose my subs very carefully, so that their interests and mine run in parallel and I can stretch their experiences with Me to both their and my satisfaction. That is about the only way I can explain it.

Someone else may feel differently.

Ebony <tavish's dream AND nightmare>

What are hard limits?

petrel clearly defines them as places into which she WILL NOT go. To others, perhaps only for this discussion, perhaps not, hard limits seem to mean places one is reluctant or afraid to go.

I think that almost all of us have our limits pushed at least occasionally when we play; such is the payoff for the massive amounts of trust and openness we share with our partner.

Most of us don't end up in places we have to safeword out of, though, and therein lies the difference between consensually pushing limits (even those self-defined as "hard limits") and pushing too hard, too fast, in an almost non-consensual manner.

Limit pushing doesn't have to be sexual, either. For instance, if someone is pushing for intimacy beyond what you feel you can offer quite yet, or pushing an ownership of you that you don't feel prepsred to give, or pushing you about weight or clothing choices or those kinds of non-sexual daily life things, then they could be pushing your limits, hard limits, you have in terms of your relationship with them and what you're prepared to give.

My hard limits are comprised, for the most part, of the Standard Big Three: no kids, no animals, no scat. For me, at this point in my life, everything else that two or more people could do together (including the dread canes) is somewhere on that well-known 0-5 continuum.

To me, hard limits are places i will not go no matter what. You and i could have the best, most satisfying BDSM relationship forfuckingever and i still wouldn't play with kids or animals or scat.

I know that when you're new to this and haven't done much actual hands-on-playing, there are a lot of things that are scary. You don't know your own needs and wants well, yet, and you certainly don't know what a lot of this stuff will feel like when you actually do it. Hence, you'll put off-limits a lot more things than more experienced lifestylers do.

Such is right and good and understandable.

You have to take care of yourself first so you'll be strong enough for someone else to want to bond with. However, as you gain in knowledge about your responses and needs, the number of things you have as hard limits, 0's, 1's and 2's (known collectively as "soft limits") will move and shift.

Muff? Most of our limits get pushed all the time; soft limits, that is. However, we all change and adapt and find out, with almost every instance of play, that we like and need and dislike new and different things, too. If there were no pushing going on, how would we grow?

Our limits, including what some call "hard limits", get pushed because we are who we are in our intimate relationships. If we didn't talk to our partners about where our heads were, if were didn't have a bedrock level of trust in our partner, if there wasn't that honesty between us, if we didn't push each other (and subs push Dom/mes to do new and different things, too - make no mistake about that) - why, then we'd be nilla, wouldn't we?

Nevermind.

Just nevermind.

The word limits is problematic, as it means two different things in the same context. A limit can be something you will adsolutely never do, and at the same time it means the outer edge of play that you have been able to reach.
I replace the term "hard limits" with the word "boundary" and find it leads to much easier understanding. A limit then, is something that can be exceeded with time, but a boundary is something you never cross.

An interesting thread.
We all have limits and we all have soft and hard limits. But, because we all are different, some limits others would consider hard, others would consider soft. And, limits some would consider hard, others wouldn't even want to put into words.
Some have emotional fears or mental blocks as hard limits. These can actually be soft limits and they maybe can be removed, with time and communication.

Some of these limits are negociable, but ONLY after you and your partner have been together for a length of time, and the trust is there. That word trust is very important.

In my case, my sub was very new to the lifestyle. She had visions of how things were from looking at pictures and reading stories. We all know a lot of pictures are touched up to seem worse than they are (oh, don't get me wrong...some of it is real, too). And, stories, to a newbie, are all true, because of no real life experience.

She was concerned about a cane, because of the pictures she had seen. Only until I told her it wouldn't have to be that way would she try it.
She no longer has it as a limit, as long as I conform to the new limit...those pictures she has seen. Until that talk, she had it as a hard limit, period! And, until we could have that talk, she had to trust me. She would only trust me, after a period of time when her limits were all adhered to.

She is extremely inquisitive, and I love that. I know what she is thinking because she is always asking questions. If I don't know the answer, I don't lie. That is part of the trust, too. Always be very open. Of course, that is true in any relationship, not just D/s.

She has some hard limits that will always be there. As someone mentioned, no kids, animals, scat, golden showers, etc. But, those are my limits, too. Those were negociated at the beginning, where she said never, never, never.

She knows she is in control, and has slowly given me more and more of that control. She doesn't understand, but I still consider her in complete control. I am just playing the part.

She has another limit of no collar around her neck. This comes from a past experience with an ex husband. Someday, I may try to talk to her about that, but it isn't that big of a deal to me. I would never have tried to force it on her, or even bring it up as being pushed, when we had been together for only a short time.

You need that trust between you to be able to grow in your relationship. Without that trust, you are only in a one night stand situation. But, if you get that trust built up, it is an amazing thing, for sure. Don't break that trust, either. She will never look at you the same way again, if at all.

Limits are limits, but some hard limits can be pushed. But, always know there are some hard limits that will not be pushed, and even after the trust is there, what the sub says is always law.

ROFL!! Frustrated? There never seems to be an easy answer, does there, Muff? Let me try: Sometimes, yes.

KillerMuffin said:

Nevermind.

Just nevermind.

Click to expand...

Nah, Monster, that was a fast and furious edit. What cym said was intended to be all in good fun and not deserving of vitriol.

She seems to think that BDSM is the only place where limits are pushed. The truth of the matter is BDSM and the psychology field are just the only places where people have defined limit pushing as healthy behavior. I'm Nilla, not dead above the neck.

Everyone defines "hard" limits in certain ways. I've always thought that "hard" limits were limits that were never crossed. Some of them, like the hair pulling thing, are grown out of, some of them, like sex with kids, are never breeched. I had thought of hard limits as something that's respected, not pushed. Apparently that's not correct at all.

Can't learn if you don't ask.

Incidentally, this board and BDSM SRPs are the only place you can safely use the word "Nilla." Maybe the Playgroud, too. DO NOT use it on the General Board unless you're actually referring to food. Ever. Don't ask why, just accept it. The world will be a much happier place.

KM i happen to agree with you i dont believe D/s relationships are the only relationships that have limits pushed and have limits and the sexuality of those limits played with or pushed


i think the difference is with a D/s relationship those limits are in the power of one side of the relationship and the other side of the relationship placing his/her trust in the dom/domme

I think you're pretty close, s-g. There's almost always one partner who's dominant in any relationship. This is the person who tends to take the lead. Some relationships, like child~parent ones, are defined. The parent is dominant. This doesn't mean that they other partner is necessarily submissive or never spends any time in the lead. It just means that one partner tends to spend more time in a leadership type position. I'm up too friggin early. I can't think of the words.

Think about the relationship you're in. One of you makes more decisions or is more often deferred to. It's just the way things are.

We all have limits. You personally have a very famous and endearing one. I push it on occasion to tease you. Usually you resist, but once you gave in.

All relationships have limits.

BDSM is unique in that a lot of these limits are very carefully defined. Not just in what they are, but how difficult it is for them to be pushed. The 0-5 scale. Limits are usually pushed through ritual, usually elaborate. They call them scenes or sessions or something. Same difference. Ritual is extremely comfortable to the human mind because it brings a both a familiar pattern and a sense of importance.

BDSM is also unique in the way they define the relationship. I don't think that you can find anyplace else where the dominant partner is so well defined or where the submissive partner is actually defined at all. You've got the cliches of the domineering wife and her milktoast hubby, but they still don't define anything.

BDSM is unique in the way they carry out their relationship. There's a dominant and a submissive partner in my relationship as well and the people who know both of us would never guess which one is which. However, we don't explore these two roles, we don't use them consciously as a part of our sexuality, and we don't use them consciously in ourselves to create growth in one or the other.

That's just the relationship itself, and none of the trappings that go with it. I don't know how many BDSMers would consider the pain, bondage, and the scenes as intrinsic to the definition of a BDSMer, but there are several. Personally, though, I'm more inclined to define BDSM as the method partners choose to interact with one another. I would say that a BDSMer is someone who chooses that particular method on a regular basis.

And this, boys and girls, is part of the reason why i love Muff so dearly, both here and in my everyday life: she's ferociously intelligent and insightful while at the same time seeing as clearly into us as anyone in the world who isn't living inside our skin.

She knows far more about us, about who we are as people and why we do what we do, than any nilla i've ever met in life - or any nilla i've ever read anything by on the net.

I'm urging you to go read her stories - especially, particularly, her BDSM-themed stories. she's knows us, guys, in a way that all too many of us don't even know us, particularly those who are new to the idea of wanting and needing this way of relating to thier partners.

Wow Muff.
Impressive.

I love you, smart girl.





And by the way? Risia knows, WriterDom knows, Hecate knows, Merelan knows, MissTaken knows, SpecterT knows, morninggirl5 knows...lots of us know the truth about her caution: don't use the word "nilla" over in the GB, especially. We've fought ferociously about that on at least three occasions in the last 14 months over there. We've bloodied ourselves in pitched battles over that word. They don't like being what they see as pigeonholed by the word. I understand it. Many call us freaks and perverts and some of us don't like that, either. (Although, personally, i kinda like the word and the designator!) In any case, it's not nice to call names, and that what's it's seen as by many outside the lifestyle. From respect for others, then, we should refrain, hmmm?

A few more thoughts on limits ...

Seeing this is a BDSM forum my first reply was strongly directed to the sexuality / power exchange aspects of BDSM relations.
After reading through a few thoughts I feel like adding a few more words to the subject - even running the danger of being "off topic" with a few approaches.

So here my babble in no particular order ....

- When I say I start pushing hard limits it may mean I start to include the topic in question into a discussion - if the reaction is NO WAY! that is all the pushing that is done right then, specially if I know it is something traumatic for my partner.

- I have not really even included the "big ones" in my first reply since they are clearly so NO for me and anyone I am "connected" to, that I am not intending to push them nor would I advise anyone related to me to try (children, animals, scat, ... ), so maybe I was not really thinking about the same definition of "hard" that some of you meant.

- You need not even go to look for any dominant or submissive tendencies in a relation to stumble across "limits" and the pushing of those. As far as I am concerned though the "pushing and giving" is always a dynamic process triggered by growth and trust in and of the relation.

Take the "Can I go and have a drink with an old friend?" thing. In a brand new relation I might feel quite uncomfortable with the idea if the "old friend" in question was an attractive woman, maybe even one I know he had a crush on a while back. I might agree to it - just for sake of avoiding an argument, but likely I would express that I actually consider this quite a pushing to the limit of having an exclusive relation. Now as the couple grows together, and the relation stabilizes, there may be at some stage a situation that requires the overnight-stay with said "old friend" ... something that I definitely would have considered a "hard limit" in the beginning of the realtion, making it a "her or me" thing probably - but as time has gone by, maybe I even have met the person in question and trust has grown in my partner and the dynamics and stability of things between us I might consider to let it slip .

I am not sure if I am making sense - but that is just how things are with many things - you have to find out more about "it/her/them" and you have to find an increasing basis of trust and openness in the relation - then you may consider things you thought you would never accept.

Is there any "plan", manual, schedul to that? I am afraid no. The limits, reations. people, circumstance are so manifold it would be presumptious to say there was a standard procedure.

Can I predict which limits I will eventually push? NO! Things that I might never think I myself could possibly want, may all of a sudden start looking tempting and attractive. So hoping things have changed for my partner too I might just try my luck - again ... always ... a NO is a NO!

Well - I guess it may or may not be fitting into this thread - but hey, just pushing your limits here

KillerMuffin said:

We all have limits. You personally have a very famous and endearing one. I push it on occasion to tease you. Usually you resist, but once you gave in.

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shush people dont know about it on this forum


i think its very interesting that someone who isn't part of the BDSM lifestyle can have a unique insight into that lifestyle ... i guess its the same as heterosexual people having insights about homosexual/bisexual lifestyles ... sometimes you can see stuff from the outside that is harder to see from within


KM i do understand what you are saying about one partner nearly always being slightly more dominant but i think within non-bdsm relationships the dominant partner can be interchangeable depending on the crisis ... i wonder if that is the same in a bdsm relationship too


i know i've probably been getting off topic a bit but getting back to the topic for a second ... i think all relationships and people have their own hard limits ... its interesting though that only bdsm relationships discuss those hard limits as a requirement ... i have talked to my girlfriend about our hard limits (we didn't call it that though) ... so i wonder if all relationships actually do discuss their hard limits and its just not so widly known ... all of our hard limits are unbreakable limits


and hecate i do understand what you are saying and i agree with you ... i also think in many ways a bdsm relationship is just like a non-bdsm relationship although there is more rules perhaps to a bdsm relationship you still in the end just have to play things by ear

You can talk, you can talk, you can bicker, you can talk

(And so on.)

It's all about discussion and the profound need for it that comes with BDSM. ALL of the healthy BDSMers I've known on this forum are clear, intelligent, occasionally verbose but always insightful speakers. It's what makes it more than a kink, and into a lifestyle--the ability to express your desires and your fears, to face them and discuss them, to make this game safe and so satisfying.

In my naivete, I began with several "hard limits," most inspired by "what kinda person would enjoy that?!" Spanking, anal sex, nipple torture (even mild), any sort of beating, and the harder levels of NC were on this "hard limit" list. I have, through constant growth and discussion of this growth with hunny, gotten over all of these "limits." I retain more, which I think are harder (the "usual" ones).

Do you think it is a coincidence that so many of the talented writers on this site are fluent in BDSM also? I don't believe it's a cause-and-effect thing, but I know that my love of my own voice has aided me immeasurably in both my sex life and my literary life. Anybody else catch the connection?

To spout my opinion would simply be to quote almost everyone

1. Depending on what you concider "hard" limits, yes, they do get pushed.

2. Negotiation, discussion, and some rooting around at the base of any limit is paramount when concidering pushing it.

3. As Hecate said, a "NO!!" is a no, and that should be the end of it for a while.

4. A "NO!!" can be caused by many things...society, education, and previous trauma being the big three. Sometimes it is good to unobtrusively root around a limit (Kim's hair-pulling thing for example) and try to soothe old hurts, or gauge the depth of the trauma, to see if professional help is warranted.

The terms "hard", "soft", and "firm" (reguarding limits) will always vary person to person...the tricky part is finding out how your partner (BDSM or not) terms them, and finding out what lurks behind those limits. In whatever you do, always be SSC....BDSM, nilla, or just a bit kinky....it applies to all, not just those of us who are involved in BDSM.

Cripes, I'm rambling!

Be well, be safe, be happy in all you do
KW

deleted

I have to say I have 3 sets of limits soft, firm and hard (kind of like tofu). Soft limits can be pushed and easily moved, they are just a fear in my head or something I don't know much about and when handled right they can be passed. Firm limits are something more embedded in my head due to a past bad experiences and can be passed but with kid gloves and alot of time and understanding. Hard limits can not be pushed NO WAY NO HOW! This is just me and how I do things, I know others don't but i find having 3 sets makes sure there is NO misunderstanding about a hard 0 and a hard 5 limit. I use this scale in all areas of my life not just 1 or 2.

For me, there are also three kinds of limits:
Soft limits are things I might enjoy or sometimes enjoy, but don't want to do often or in any real depth. (breast bondage, for example). Equivalent to a 1-2.
Firm limits are things I'm not currently into, but there's room for change and "pushing." (straight-jackets, mummification) Equivalent to a 0.
Hard limits are things which just aren't gonna happen, ever. (Scat, bestiality, WS, kids, punching, prostitution). This is a NO.

lilredwolph said:

I have to say I have 3 sets of limits soft, firm and hard (kind of like tofu).
<snip>
I know others don't but i find having 3 sets makes sure there is NO misunderstanding about a hard 0 and a hard 5 limit. I use this scale in all areas of my life not just 1 or 2.

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I really like your idea of three sets of limits. I can see how that might really help you to clarify to your partner where your limits lie.

However, what's a "hard 5 limit"? What's a "hard 0 limit"?

In my mind, the well-known scale is something like this:
NO = Hard limit = I will not do that, ever.
0 - I *really* don't want to do this thing.
1 - I don't want to do this because i find it distasteful or scary but i'll do it with the right partner after we talk it through and the trust has grown enough.
2 - I don't much care about this one way or the other, don't dislike it, don't particularly like, just kinda neutral on it, sure i'll do it if you want to.
3 - I kinda like this but it's nothing i have to have all the time, but sure, yeh, i'll do this and have a pretty good time doing it, too.
4 - I like this thing, oh yes indeed
5 - I love this and i want it a LOT please oh please, over and over and over and over

But a "hard 5 limit"? What's that?

Re: You can talk, you can talk, you can bicker, you can talk

Quint said:

In my naivete, I began with several "hard limits," most inspired by "what kinda person would enjoy that?!" Spanking, anal sex, nipple torture (even mild), any sort of beating, and the harder levels of NC were on this "hard limit" list. I have, through constant growth and discussion of this growth with hunny, gotten over all of these "limits." I retain more, which I think are harder (the "usual" ones).

Click to expand...

I don't know anyone, not one single person, who has been involved in BDSM for a year or more who had the same list of limits that they started out with. Novices just dont know enough about how they will react to various things to set limits that they wont at some point change, if they stay with BDSM long enough. Most people will set their limits far short of where they eventually end up, for example, they might agree to spankings but think flogging is too intense, but as they become acclimated to the feeling of spanking, will likely realize they can , and want, to try the next step, and the limit against flogging crumbles. This is why I don't use the word limits to describe those things that are off the table, under any circumstances. It's comparing apples and oranges.

cymbidia said:

I really like your idea of three sets of limits. I can see how that might really help you to clarify to your partner where your limits lie.

However, what's a "hard 5 limit"? What's a "hard 0 limit"?

In my mind, the well-known scale is something like this:
NO = Hard limit = I will not do that, ever.
0 - I *really* don't want to do this thing.
1 - I don't want to do this because i find it distasteful or scary but i'll do it with the right partner after we talk it through and the trust has grown enough.
2 - I don't much care about this one way or the other, don't dislike it, don't particularly like, just kinda neutral on it, sure i'll do it if you want to.
3 - I kinda like this but it's nothing i have to have all the time, but sure, yeh, i'll do this and have a pretty good time doing it, too.
4 - I like this thing, oh yes indeed
5 - I love this and i want it a LOT please oh please, over and over and over and over

But a "hard 5 limit"? What's that?

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I use the 0-5 mostly with firm limits, soft limits are just that soft and no matter how I scaled them they are just soft and can be passed, they are limits mainly due to my lack of knowledge of the subject. Hard limits there is no reason to have a scale with, because we are not going there ever. Firm limits I scale, 0-5 basically as you have stated above, but these limits are in place due to personal experience, and will take more to pass then a soft limit. My Dom knows me inside and out and has been able to push some firm limits out of the way, but some he has just been able to push to the point where I can know talk about them, but they are still in place.
This doesn't seem to be making much sense to me I hope it make sense to others

lilred

To me

James Blandings said:

The word limits is problematic, as it means two different things in the same context. A limit can be something you will adsolutely never do, and at the same time it means the outer edge of play that you have been able to reach.
I replace the term "hard limits" with the word "boundary" and find it leads to much easier understanding. A limit then, is something that can be exceeded with time, but a boundary is something you never cross.

Click to expand...

Good example. To me a hard limit is a boundary never to be crossed. I like the BDSM checklist because it has a scale of 5.
3 is the neutral.
0 is hell no or the hard limit/boundary.
1 is the I do not want to do it, but I can be "forced" to please my Mistress.

I call 4 & 5 the "do it to me one more time, I can never get enough with a Domme like you" numbers!

Ebony