TPE Slaves Vs Subs...

Okay, I admit I am trying to understand the difference. I cannot and won't consider myself a slave to Himself and He doesn't consider me as such.

I am really trying to understand the pay off for slaves in a relationship. As a sub/switch I know what my pay off is and I know what I want out of our relationship. I do not understand the need to be owned.

I would like to hear from some slaves about how they feel about this issue...

Thanks to all

Speaking as an ex-slave for the Navy, there is a tremendous attraction in having no say in the decision making process. No decisions equals no responsibility for what later happens. So if I look extremely stupid in my choice of clothing, it's not my fault because I didn't pick it out. At any level.

I believe there's a slight difference in that the submissive still has to make decisions in places where a slave makes none.

...and weighing in with the unpopular opinion, it's cyyyyyyyym! Give her a big round of applause, folks!


Ahem.

I've been *sub*, many times to many Dom/mes.
I've been what my Dominant and i considered a *slave* only twice.

Neither is better.
Neither is worse.
They are different head states.

I have considered myself a slave to someone only in a couple (two) cases in my life. Both times, i gave away my right to say no to anything. I didn't have a safe word. My thoughts, feelings, opinions, wishes, desires, wants, needs, etc did not have to be taken into account for mundane and daily life issues, not to mention the larger issues that we delve into with intense, edgy, and recurring BDSM sexuality.

I cannot imagine feeling as deeply toward/about/for another person as i did in those two cases. I cannot imagine being able to allow that kind of trust to grow again. Today, now, i still feel it's hollow in the places that have held such emotions in the past.

Without those infinitely deep wells of love and trust and need and desire, one cannot be a slave - no matter what one calls oneself.

But when it was right, it felt as if there was another level of trust that had been breached, a last wall that had been scaled. I felt pared down to my most basic self as a slave to one who had the strength and skill and love and honor to own me, really own me. (Unfortunately, as most of us know, i chose badly in one of those cases - but one never touches the stars if one never dares the heights.)

Disclaimer: The above definition/information is valid only for me in my life and in my relationships. Doubtless, it is different for you. Such is ever the way of this branching, winding path we are all following, right?

I am definitely no one's slave, nor can I see that happening. And I wouldn't say I am a sub either, under most circumstances. With the right woman, I can be very submissive. This comes from a nearly obsessive desire to please such a woman more than a desire to be dominated, although I do prefer women who are dominate in the bedroom.

A Domme mistaking me for her slave might have a bad day. However, I've noticed that experienced Dommes don't particularly care for bad days, so they sort out characteristics and preferences potential subs might have and methodically root out those who are not going to be a good fit with their own desires.

I might be off base here, but I think the difference between a slave and a sub as it applies to BDSM is that the slave has (voluntarily) given up liberty to a Dominate, and a sub has not. The sub still has the choice to conform to the Dominate's wishes, and the slave must simply conform. Often, a slave's only real choice is to terminate the relationship. A sub can negotiate, a slave cannot. It's the difference between some level of submissive behavior and absolute submission.

I own a slave at the moment that came to Me in submission. My choice has always been submission over slavery and therefore I have generally owned submissives. Slavery is a long slow process that will occur naturally if it is to survive.
The difference between slavery and submission in My opinion is responsibility and freedom. These two words apply to both the Domme and the slave. She takes on an extreme degree of responsibility for physical and emotional health as well as the usual sexuality issues. She has been handed the freedom to make these choices through the trust of the one at Her feet. She should have earned this trust long before She titled this submissive as a slave. It takes a special love and magic between the two parties to make such a union work. The submissive has the responsibility of honesty, complete and unequivical. Through this honesty a continual dialogue occurs that make it UNNECESSARY to have choices..for this honesty gives the Dominant the mental understanding when it is an issue of safety either emotionally or physically that must be addressed. From this word *responsibility* flows the word *freedom*. Once again this word applies to both the Domme and the slave. She has the freedom to use all of Her strengths to create the diamond She sees buried in the soul of the one She has chosen to give so much of Herself to. The slave has the freedom to shut off all thoughts of responsibility for their sexuality and daily lifes choices.
It seems to be a common misconception that owning a slave is like owning a dish rag or door mat. The slave does all the work and the Dominant lays back barking out orders. In reality it is an incredible amount of work via the responsibility of having a slave, keeping them content and safe as well as pushing limits continously for their own developement.
Owning a submissive is much less complex as their needs are on a different level. They are content retaining some of their own responsibility.
One is not better than another. One is not stronger or weaker than another. One is no more beautiful than the other. Few Dominants have the time or desire to own slaves in the real sense of the word. Few submissives have the need to embrace slavery.
Of course this is an over simplification of My thoughts.

stepping into the fray

I honestly believe that there are certain circumstances that may lead one to become 'slave' to his/her One. The mindset of always identifying with one role is foreign to me as life is fluid and changes over time.

For me, personally, I find that when I submit, I submit fully to One that has established a real trust and foundation -- with me. The thought of being a "slave" just to whomever is not what I feel is possible... for me. I am SUCH a strong submissive that it always surprises me when I hear that I have a slave mentality. I think that the mindsets are not all that different in a specific mix of two.

Perhaps it boils down to semantics to a degree -- and perceptions of what each means. To many, the term "slave" has become synonymous with Gorean thinking, and that has given me more than one moment of confusion.

I will not allow myself to be topped by anyone to whom I have not given that power and permission, but once I find myself engaged with One to whom I have -- I find myself with the need to give and give... everything I am.

I often play without safewords BECAUSE I trust the One I interact with. I know that He is aware of who I am, and of my body language to such a degree that He knows when I am getting anywhere near the point where things are becoming too intense. If I didn't have that foundation of trust, then I could not... go that deep into my submission. There is an incredible sense of freedom in that release of all control -- and perhaps that does mean I am slave to THAT interaction... and to THAT particular Dominant.

I think that is true for many more than might recognize it as a specific state of mind, but that is only based on my own thoughts and observations.

The hard part is reconciling that intense need to give everything and beg for more... and the strength to be a "real person" outside of that type of interaction -- micromanagement is not for me. ~rueful laugh~

So the definitions are honestly what one makes of them, even as I do believe that identifying with a particular role is necessary to some degree -- but lables were never meant to be inclusive -- an owner's manual they aren't.

Just my two cents worth... take them for what they are worth.

dark whisper

Like cym, I see the slave/sub distinction as being more about headspace than anythng else.
I have known submissives who would never even dream of disobeying their dominant but refused to accept the term slave, so the idea that it denotes a more strict form of DS is false in my opinion.
I don't like the word slave for several reasons, some of which I think we have discussed before in another thread, But I'll tell you the main problem I have with it. It's, basically, a lie. No one involved in BDSM is really a slave, no matter how much they like to think of themselves as one. The concept of slavery is contradictory to our credo of SSC, and really we all know that, and we all know that BDSM slavery is an advanced form of roleplaying.
The word submisive on the other hand, is an honest description of particular persons characters.
Thats just my own opinion, and I have no problem with other people using whatever terms they like.

Ditto what James said.

I don't know if I've ever done that before. Nicely summed up, JB!

~~~~~~~~
I see what people are saying about headspace and levels of submission. I agree with whisper, though, that it's highly individual, context-bound, and largely a game of semantics and interpretation of inherently limiting labels.

RisiaSkye said:

Ditto what James said.

I don't know if I've ever done that before. Nicely summed up, JB!

~~~~~~~~
I see what people are saying about headspace and levels of submission. I agree with whisper, though, that it's highly individual, context-bound, and largely a game of semantics and interpretation of inherently limiting labels.

Click to expand...

Thank you Risia.

Re: stepping into the fray

dark whisper said:

So the definitions are honestly what one makes of them, even as I do believe that identifying with a particular role is necessary to some degree -- but lables were never meant to be inclusive -- an owner's manual they aren't.

Just my two cents worth... take them for what they are worth.

dark whisper

Click to expand...

I will take your .02 cents worth, (sorry, not giving any change back).

slaves vs subs

I personally think that being a slave one has to be fully into that one person. Able to have trust that no harm will come to you no matter what HE/or SHE tells you to do. You have to be able to have complete faith in that person in order to let yourself be put in any postion.

Being a submissive yes, you submit to that person at a particular time or in a scene. But for you to be able on a daily basis to understand what your role is in their life.

A slave knows that they are there for a long-term relationship, and it is not something that you do overnight. It is a commitment to the relationship as much as to the other person you are with. You are promising that they are the only one. And the trust is there you are HIS/HERS and you know and trust that they will be there for you ...

As a sub you may have the feelings, and yes you submit to HIM/HER, but can or will you really let someone else control you in that way I think that is one of the differences. Only you can make that decision a slave gives her/or himself body soul and spirit without any questions or concerns and that is something that only a MASTER/MISTRESS can really and totally appreciate.

Re: slaves vs subs

Skitten said:

a slave gives her/or himself body soul and spirit without any questions or concerns and that is something that only a MASTER/MISTRESS can really and totally appreciate.

Click to expand...

No truer words have been spoken Skitten.

And it is up to the slave to make sure the person who they give this much power to is up to the task. Being a slave in the D/s sense is a mindset that reflects one side of the coin. The Master/MIstress must have the mindset that reflects the other side of the coin.

Eb

Re: slaves vs subs

Skitten said:

A slave knows that they are there for a long-term relationship, and it is not something that you do overnight. It is a commitment to the relationship as much as to the other person you are with. You are promising that they are the only one. And the trust is there you are HIS/HERS and you know and trust that they will be there for you ...

Click to expand...

I agree.

just my feelings...


I don't know if I'm using the right words here, this is not an easy thing to explain...

Whatever you choose to call it, I do agree it is a mindset. But it is also a feeling and sometimes words of the Queen's English seem to not quite cover the extent, the depth of emotions.

I believe that submissiveness is environmental conditioning.
(A desire for acceptance,
a wish to please and to be found pleasing).
And that being a slave takes that environmental conditioning a step further. A step into ones innate personality traits.
(Where that desire and that wish are actually deep seeded
needs and once those needs are met, there is an internal
feeling of completeness.)

I've always known that I was submissive, but yet I had always felt that something was missing. Something important.
Something I couldn't find in any shopping mall. Something I couldn't find in any garden. Something missing that couldn't be fulfilled with yardwork, housework, my career or even in parenthood. Something deep inside me was missing. Something I needed to make me feel whole. To make me feel complete.

It wasn't until I became a slave that I found it.
I cannot explain what it is.
Is it His dominance?
Is it discipline?
Is it simply being His posession?
Is it any one thing?
Is it a combination of many things?
Does it really matter exactly what it is?
Is it not more important that in this relationship I found what I needed to be complete?

Re: just my feelings...

AnonymousSlave said:

I don't know if I'm using the right words here, this is not an easy thing to explain...

Whatever you choose to call it, I do agree it is a mindset. But it is also a feeling and sometimes words of the Queen's English seem to not quite cover the extent, the depth of emotions.

I believe that submissiveness is environmental conditioning.
(A desire for acceptance,
a wish to please and to be found pleasing).
And that being a slave takes that environmental conditioning a step further. A step into ones innate personality traits.
(Where that desire and that wish are actually deep seeded
needs and once those needs are met, there is an internal
feeling of completeness.)

I've always known that I was submissive, but yet I had always felt that something was missing. Something important.
Something I couldn't find in any shopping mall. Something I couldn't find in any garden. Something missing that couldn't be fulfilled with yardwork, housework, my career or even in parenthood. Something deep inside me was missing. Something I needed to make me feel whole. To make me feel complete.

It wasn't until I became a slave that I found it.
I cannot explain what it is.
Is it His dominance?
Is it discipline?
Is it simply being His posession?
Is it any one thing?
Is it a combination of many things?
Does it really matter exactly what it is?
Is it not more important that in this relationship I found what I needed to be complete?

Click to expand...

Wonderful post!

Eb

Re: just my feelings...

AnonymousSlave said:

I don't know if I'm using the right words here, this is not an easy thing to explain...

Click to expand...

I would say you did quite well with the Queens english, and you covered your points intelligently.

I would add,...WHO we are, what we each NEED, is ACCEPTANCE. Whether one is labeled Dom/me-switch-sub-slave, (or any other label), really is immaterial.

We all NEED to find that something that completes us, and be accepted for WHO we are. Sometimes one is fortunate in finding that, and sometimes one is not. Labels be damned.-LOL

Hello James,

I'd like to point out a couple of things, and I do so with the utmost respect and diplomacy. However, your statements that "No one involved in BDSM is really a slave", and "It's basically a lie" are false. The reason I know they are false is that I am a slave. It's not a mindset; it's how I am made. In addition, I know 2 women who are slaves and who have been owned by their Masters for many years. Granted, slaves are few and far between, but there *are* some.

And, the term "slave" is an honest description of *my* character and is part of my make-up, just as the fact that I am a woman is part of my make-up. I'm not pretending to be a woman; I *am* a woman, and, by the same token, I'm not pretending to be a slave; I *am* a slave.

And, no, it is not an advanced form of roleplaying for me; I do not roleplay, and I am not involved in the scene. I will, once I find him, be owned by my Master, and I will live as a slave, doing as I am told and obeying him at all times. I *will* do whatever I can prior to living with him to be sure that he is safe and trustworthy and that he has my best interests at heart and that he is not dangerous.

I can see how you believe the statements that you have made given the vast multitudes of players and idiots out there, but I just wanted to tell you that there are at least 3 slaves on this earth. Maybe there are more; maybe not. But, I am, beyond the shadow of a doubt, a slave and, once I enter in a relationship with my Master, it will be for life. There will be no backing out or breaking up over some silly petty argument.

I realize that 99.5% of people who call themselves slaves are truly not slaves, but I am.

Cordially,
Cleo

cleo

cleome7777 said:

I'd like to point out a couple of things, and I do so with the utmost respect and diplomacy. However, your statements that "No one involved in BDSM is really a slave", and "It's basically a lie" are false. The reason I know they are false is that I am a slave. It's not a mindset; it's how I am made. In addition, I know 2 women who are slaves and who have been owned by their Masters for many years. Granted, slaves are few and far between, but there *are* some.

And, the term "slave" is an honest description of *my* character and is part of my make-up, just as the fact that I am a woman is part of my make-up. I'm not pretending to be a woman; I *am* a woman, and, by the same token, I'm not pretending to be a slave; I *am* a slave.

And, no, it is not an advanced form of roleplaying for me; I do not roleplay, and I am not involved in the scene. I will, once I find him, be owned by my Master, and I will live as a slave, doing as I am told and obeying him at all times. I *will* do whatever I can prior to living with him to be sure that he is safe and trustworthy and that he has my best interests at heart and that he is not dangerous.

I can see how you believe the statements that you have made given the vast multitudes of players and idiots out there, but I just wanted to tell you that there are at least 3 slaves on this earth. Maybe there are more; maybe not. But, I am, beyond the shadow of a doubt, a slave and, once I enter in a relationship with my Master, it will be for life. There will be no backing out or breaking up over some silly petty argument.

I realize that 99.5% of people who call themselves slaves are truly not slaves, but I am.

Cordially,
Cleo

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for sharing that,...I completely agree with how you stated the TRUTH. I also wish to extend my best wishes for you finding what you seek,...a *worthy* Master.

P.S.-BTW,...welcome to the Forum,...I hope you enjoy your stay.

Thank you, Artful, for both the welcome and your wishes for me to find a Master. I have a feeling it will take quite a while to find the right one!

I'm sure I *will* enjoy it here and look forward to communicating with you and everyone else.

Cleo

cymbidia said:

...and weighing in with the unpopular opinion, it's cyyyyyyyym! Give her a big round of applause, folks!


Ahem.

I've been *sub*, many times to many Dom/mes.
I've been what my Dominant and i considered a *slave* only twice.

Neither is better.
Neither is worse.
They are different head states.

I have considered myself a slave to someone only in a couple (two) cases in my life. Both times, i gave away my right to say no to anything. I didn't have a safe word. My thoughts, feelings, opinions, wishes, desires, wants, needs, etc did not have to be taken into account for mundane and daily life issues, not to mention the larger issues that we delve into with intense, edgy, and recurring BDSM sexuality.

I cannot imagine feeling as deeply toward/about/for another person as i did in those two cases. I cannot imagine being able to allow that kind of trust to grow again. Today, now, i still feel it's hollow in the places that have held such emotions in the past.

Without those infinitely deep wells of love and trust and need and desire, one cannot be a slave - no matter what one calls oneself.

But when it was right, it felt as if there was another level of trust that had been breached, a last wall that had been scaled. I felt pared down to my most basic self as a slave to one who had the strength and skill and love and honor to own me, really own me. (Unfortunately, as most of us know, i chose badly in one of those cases - but one never touches the stars if one never dares the heights.)

Disclaimer: The above definition/information is valid only for me in my life and in my relationships. Doubtless, it is different for you. Such is ever the way of this branching, winding path we are all following, right?

Click to expand...

I have owned but one slave. There is a whole different level in trust. I was on the receiving end of that trust for ten years. I don't think think that I shall have that intense of a relationship with another human being again. Like you cym, I feel those hollows as well. Yet, I still search to fill those voids.
Excellent post

this may seem a little off topic, but i've seen the word mentioned in this thread a few times and i don't know it's meaning...what's "switch" mean...in relation to bdsm, i know what the defintion version is...heh....

A switch is someone who both bottoms and Tops depending on their mood, the people they're dealing with or other factors I'm unaware of.

Red Menace said:

A switch is someone who both bottoms and Tops depending on their mood, the people they're dealing with or other factors I'm unaware of.

Click to expand...

Good explanation Red Menace. Piggybacking....

Also, within lifestyle couples you can find a Dom/me sub pair, where the sub is a Dominant of his or her own submissive.

So there is a tiered effect.

Ebony

ooh, now THAT's neat...I bet my Hinansho San would like me to have my own sub...if it's a girl...heh *bounces* i'd suck at it though...heehee. I very happy being strictly sub to my Hinansho San *grins*

Another visit to the past and a good thread.

Catalinahttp://home.scarlet.be/~lr980043/new/engelen/engelen30.gif