Is a safe word counterproductive for extremely novice submissives?

I think so.

Why?



Come on... i know you have more words in there...

I may be wrong here....

I think I have an idea what WD's referring to.

Key words: "extremely novice".

Someone being handed an "out clause" might be likely to use it quickly and frivolously, especially before they have a chance to think through if they really want to quit right then and there. Granted, anyone with an ounce of observational skill and/or an ounce of empathy (and any Dom(me) worth a rat's ass has loads of both, IMHO) can see through such "Panic Stops" in pretty short order.

Also, "extremely novice" people are likely to be a lot more nervous around "sensation", still have it tied up in the idea of "pain". That type of person would probably be frustrating to a Dom(me) who's trying to help a new sub find his/her limits.

So, WD?

Am I right?

Or a too-cerebral Switch who's fulla shit?

The topic has me wondering. How many have EVER used a safe word? Granted, I am not what one would describe as a highly experienced player, but I like to think I have gained enough to be accepted. And I have never felt the need to use my safeword. I would expect that this could be a "test" of sorts to determine the difference between anyone who is serious and in this for its own pleasurable sake as opposed to just a fashion statement or to please a partner.

Good question, BG.

I've never used my safe word.

I've seen and heard others use it, though. Twice. In both cases it was during a semi-public play party situation wherein Tops and bottoms (and i'm using those words deliberately instead of using the more intimate "submissive" and "Dom/me") who didn't really know each other that well were sceneing for thier own benefit as well as for the benefit of the other party attendees.

I'm not sure i've ever known a submissive in a bonded relationship who ever used his/her safe word.

Why do we make such a big deal of them if no one ever uses them?





Hi, T.
I've missed you of late and am glad you're back around.

Now...i really don't KNOW...but

i believe i would qualify as an "extremely novice submissive". From the reading i have done, the safe word was something that really appealed to me.

The idea that sex play was discussed for some time before any real physical contact was made was something i found completely lacking in the 'nilla world. By "lacking" i mean, it was assumed that you were "supposed to know what you are doing, and that we're both here for the same thing...let's get it on". That wasn't always true.

In BDSM it seems to me that people are really seeking something more, and willing to try different things in that pursuit.

i hope to start as a sub with the idea that any Dom/me who will have me will help me find out what it is that i WANT, then address my needs once that has been established.

A safe word, i would consider a "gift" from my Dom/me and would never use it lightly. The idea that there was no way to call "CUT" within a scene i would find scary to the point that i would lose a good deal of interest in playing.

In a search so rife with emotional, psychological, and physical dangers, how could a safe word be "counterproductive"?

i wish i could have had something similar in my 'nilla years so i could have said "CUT! This isn't doing me any good, can't we try something else?"

To a certain degree, I do think a safe word would be counter productive for novice submissives. If it is given without there being a clear understanding of the use of the safe word, the sub may use it prematurely, thereby negating an opportunity for growth. If allowed to go on too long, the submissive may actually learn how to top from the bottom rather than find comfort in their submission.

The safe word is the last strand of the sub's "control" in D/s play and should only be used if absolutely necessary. (humbly offered)

On the other side of the fence, I would argue that many novice subs may find themselves in a position wherein they are engaging in play with someone they don't trust entirely, perhaps they haven't learned to trust in a D/s context. A safe word may provide comfort to the sub, even though he/she may never use it.

For me, I had no safeword in my first relationship, didn't feel a need for them nor did I need them.

Oh! And Dr. Your understanding of the relationship would probably move you past the "extremely novice" stage. I am referring to brand new subs who haven't had the opportunity to study, explore and share ideas. I am imagining a scene wherein the safe word is used after the second spank and an "Ouch! That stings!"

Well OK then!

From that point of view, i can see what you mean.

It seems difficult for me to realize how much i have learned in just a few days. In RL i've never even met anyone in the lifestyle, (as far as i know) so for me even imagining volunteering myself to be a sub is overwhelming.

i can see where my studies and other life experience might set me apart from the usual "extreme novice", but until i meet someone i'd be willing to commit to, the safe word does sound comforting.

P.S. this brings new meaning to the term "brand spanking new" God! i'll never be the same <lol>

Wether a safeword is counterproductive or not depend a lot on the situation.
If someone moves from online only to real life BDSM, it might be, because a real life spanking surely feels a bit different.
But with a real beginner, with not even online experience a safeword is beneficial, I'd say.
I once had the pleasure of playing with such a beginner, we talked for weeks before we actually played and I gave him a safeword. He didn't use it, though. Later he told me that it occured to him to use it once during this first scene, his own reactions to the things I did to him were so intense that he was scared, but in the end the trust we had build earlier in those long talks won out.

Monika

Again I quote from Dr...

i wish i could have had something similar in my 'nilla years so i could have said
"CUT! This isn't doing me any good, can't we try something else?"

Sorry but this caught my eye. Don't we all wish we had that word. To make it all stop, if only for a few minutes. To stop whatever is happening till we could adjust ourselves, or it to us.

As for a safe word. Well, as a novice, it makes me feel safe to know I can stop whatever they try at anytime, simply with a word. Yes, I guess there might be times it would stop something I might like in a minute, but then again, aren't there slow down words too? or ease up words?

Oh! Merelan bless you!

The point i really wanted to make was that in my 'nilla years, the idea of "talking about sex" was unheard of. You did it, or did without.

What was working, or the incredible voids that weren't even being addressed, was not open to discussion, for fear of causing "hang ups" or exposing "freaky desires" both of which were sure fire ways of ending a sexual relationship.

The world has changed so much since i decided to "do without". It IS Spring again, and an old man's fancy turns. Really turns.

You mean, whispering softly..... a world without Lit?
Yes, I see what you mean. I am a fortunate that my family has been open and free about such things. Never a taboo subject, except when outsiders around. Lucky my. Yes, and blessed.

My...how perfectly you put it

i may have been on the front lines of the sexual revolution, but for me the sexual revelation had to wait until i learned about Lit

Blue

WriterDom said:

I think so.

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I'm sorry if this will offend anyone but my first reaction to seeing this thread was one of pure horror. THe safe word is the one thing that makes BDSM play 'safe'. There may be dom/mes out there who pride themesleves on being able to read signals so well that they don't need a safe word but I'm afraid I'm not that super human, my signals can be messed up, and I can misread other peoples signals, just look at the amount of misunderstandings and messed up reltionships around if you doubt me on how easy it is to misread what someone 'really' means.
If a sub uses a safe word it usually means they are hurting, scared or worried and in ALL of those cases you should stop!
I don't care if it frustrating for you - hey that's what happens when your partner is a human being with feelings and nerve endings not just a robot or blow up doll. Only with the security of knowing that you have a safe word can many subs begin to explore their pain/pleasure sensations.

I am sure there are dom/mes who will now tell me I am too inexperienced to know what I am talking about and that a 'real' sub would trust their dom/me even without a safe word I have one word for that - BULLSHIT.

WriterDom said:

Author Unknown

The Online Predator

6. He will usually discourage or forbid the use of Safe Calls.

4) Safety violations: reluctance to have a safeword or other safety precautions in place, either during the first meeting or later. Run.

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and another quote form RisiaSkye on this board:
Safe, Sane & Consensual: Words to Live By
One of the questions I am most commonly asked about BDSM, both here and in RL, is how one differentiates between Domination using extreme sensation and abusive, hurtful relationshiops.

One of the few things I've consistently found agreement on within the BDSM community, here and elsewhere, is the primary need to adhere to the SSC motto. So, let's take a look at this a little more closely. What does Safe, Sane & Consensual really mean?

Safe: A Dominant of any variety has a principal and unwavering ethical and emotional duty to their sub, bottom, slave (etc.) to keep them safe. This means, no matter how intense or edgy the play, that the Dominant must be in control of themself and the scene, able to protect the sub from real harm and damaging emotional turmoil. This means not physically harming the sub in a lasting way, it means knowing how to use any toys that enter a scene (particularly with potentially dangerous toys like TENS units), it means respecting hard limits, and it means always having one eye on the safety and emotional security of the bottom/sub. A Dominant who fails to do this fails both the sub, and themself.

Safety also requries submissives to protect themselves, particularly early in a relationship. Safe-calls, safe-words, discussions of limits, contracts, agreements, and even references from other submissives work toward this end. Honesty also goes a long way toward safety. If a submissive has health issues or limits which may affect play, it is their duty to be honest about them. If a sub has a negative, frightening, or damaging experience (like sub-drop), this should also be communicated to the Dominant in the interest of safety

cymbidia said:

Why do we make such a big deal of them if no one ever uses them?

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For the same reason we make a big deal of other safety issues/concepts. We hope to never use them, but we are oh-so-grateful when it is "broken in". (Eyeing my 2 fire extinguishers as I am typing this.)

The safe word ensures consensuality as well as safety. It differentiates between the scene responses that many enjoy and the real cry for cessation. We are human and not every SM interraction/event will be successful. The safeword allows for the unmistakable communication that things are not right.

Yelling "FIRE" in a crowded hallway is always possible, but rarely done. Yelling "FIRE" during a scene is no different. Someone who overuses the alarm is lot a good candidate for SM play. Regardless of their lack of experience. Remember, we are not talking about immature children here.

I don't question the principle behind the safe word. But wonder if it raises the bar of a new sub's desire to please past her breaking point. I would prefer a more open level of communication in the very beginning where stop means stop. I had one experience with someone, their second, both with me, where she had a safe word, but wasn't in the mental state to even say stop, much less use a safe word. My only clue was when she began to sob. For which I blame myself for not asking how she was doing along the way. She was fine after a few minutes of tender aftercare, but it did leave an impression on me.

And when I say new sub, I don't mean new to me, but completely new to any real time play.

Another direction, and one I hadn't thought of in my post. Thanks, WD! Something else for the mind to work with. Again, Empathy and Observational Skill were key in this "non safe word moment"

Overweening desire to please, making a given safeword useless..... Hmmm. That's a scary thought. I wonder if I'm capable of that kind of thing....

Yes.

I am.

and, Frouwa_Aph?

Nice AV.

This conversation seems to have gone in two directions:
1. the potential for novice subs overusing safewords
2. novice subs failing to invoke the safeword when their limits have been reached.

It's an imperfect process, getting to know someone's responses--whether they're new to submission, or just new to *you.* That doesn't mean that safewords are counterproductive so much as that Dom/mes must be extra alert and attentive with a new sub, even when there's a safeword in place, until one has a better idea of that sub's limits, emotional state during scenes, and how likely they are to remember and use the safeword when and if it's needed. As the Dom/me, that's *already* part of the deal--so really, it's just an amplification of the Dom/me's responsibilities, and a temporary one at that.

However, there's another idea here, and one that I find somewhat troubling. The idea of counter-productive safewords seems (to me) to suggest that novice subs aren't capable of deciding their own limits, that the Dom/me has a right, even a duty to second-guess them. I think that's wrong, and even destructive; while the sub (like *every* other human) may make mistakes--using the word too often or not at all--they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Learning to negotiate their desires and understand their own limits and how to communicate them is part of the growth process, and we shouldn't second-guess it. If you REALLY don't want to bother walking a particular person through uncovering their submission, then don't get involved with someone you don't trust to already know themselves. It seems kinda limiting, eliminating potential partners due to inexperience, but at least it's better than the frightening proposition of not using safewords. That way lies madness.

RisiaSkye said:

.However, there's another idea here, and one that I find somewhat troubling. The idea of counter-productive safewords seems (to me) to suggest that novice subs aren't capable of deciding their own limits, that the Dom/me has a right, even a duty to second-guess them. I think that's wrong, and even destructive; while the sub (like *every* other human) may make mistakes--using the word too often or not at all--they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Learning to negotiate their desires and understand their own limits and how to communicate them is part of the growth process, and we shouldn't second-guess it. If you REALLY don't want to bother walking a particular person through uncovering their submission, then don't get involved with someone you don't trust to already know themselves. It seems kinda limiting, eliminating potential partners due to inexperience, but at least it's better than the frightening proposition of not using safewords. That way lies madness.

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thank you Risia for echoing what I was trying to say. I was honestly beginning to think that no-one else out there saw the potential madness of denying subs access to a safe word.

petrel said:

thank you Risia for echoing what I was trying to say. I was honestly beginning to think that no-one else out there saw the potential madness of denying subs access to a safe word.

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Crap. Looks Like I've confused everyone again. I was guessing at reasons someone might feel a safeword to be counterproductive, not sharing my own views on them. My own, personal views are pretty simple.

Use two of them. Not a new idea by a long shot. One's to stop the whole thing entirely, the type that most people think of when they hear "safe word", the other is for panic moments, claustrophobia, that kind of cornered feeling that can absolutely destroy a scene. The "Uh, we need to talk. Right Now." safeword. Personally, I think that's best when you're getting used to someone, or getting someone used to playing.

Is it counter productive? Only if you're not interested in communicating, lack the patience to deal with jitters, fits and starts. C'mon: Were any of you always absolutely sure about an activity, never been nervous about something you were about to experience? I doubt it. If so, that's every bit as scary as someone trying so hard to please that s/he never uses their safeword, even when they need it.

I've really got to start all of my posts with some kind of disclaimer, like "Compulsive Devil's Advocate", or something.

When I hit 1000 posts, I'll make that my title.

SpectreT,
The ones that are most commonly referred to are "Red, yellow, green" to indicate the same way as they do in traffic. If your novice subbie is really REALLY enjoying something, a whispered or shouted "Green" is an excellent communication. If the top is treading over the taboo line or pushing the limits too close to something intolerable physically, that yellow is a good warning so that the scene does not have to be destroyed. Instead, questions can be answered or the minor adjustment for something can be dealt with and the overall direction can be altered a bit and the journey still enjoyed. (Think about a CRAMP that will go away if the physical position is changed or an attack of snot nose or the sudden remembering that this morning's birth control pill was forgotten or...or...or....) The RED is a call for an all out stop regardless of anything else. Scene is over. Period.

Pretty handy. Perfect for the novice, wouldn't you say? Not bad for the old timer either.

(Hey... I think I am starting to sound like I might just know a bit about this stuff, huh?)

I've got to agree with Risia, Petrel, and Blond Girl (if I am understanding her correctly). Its true, though, I am not superexperienced yet. Subs should at least be able to be demanding about that one point. It wouldn't be play, even at the extremely novice level, if both couldn't say stop. The other guys are certainly right about how you even begin to learn your own limits -- you have to either put up or get out, not shut up. Not having a safe word just decreases the level of communication, and no one really wants that. If you really did you would probably stick with the vanilla side of life. Gosh wouldn't it be nice if nilla folk just talked about what they didn't like and did like? I only had one girlfriend whoever did.

Either way a useful subject of discussion.

BlondGirl said:

"Red, yellow, green"

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I used "yellow" on Monday morning, as a matter of fact.

(No! I do *not* want to hear about my claim to being celibate! I can't do it! I won't do it! You can't make me do it!)

I was playing with someone who'll be just fine for now and it was our first time. He was being careful but, well, we've done a lot of talking already, he's read my stories and knows they're autobiographical, and he's seen into my toybag. He knew i could take and wanted more than just a couple gentle taps, you know?

He started with his hand. I like hands. They're warm and pliable and i feel so connected to my partner via that hand. He had *hard* hands, though, and knew what he was doing with them. And he liked using his hand; i could tell that.

Then he asked if i was comfortable, if i wanted more, and when i assented, he repositioned me so i was bent over the bed, slipped his belt off, and began to use that on my already glowing backside. Hard. Quick. The sound of my moans and little screams filled the room, puncuated by the unmistakeable sound of leather slapping hard against skin.

Well!

GODS!

A handful of hard swats and my skin was on fire. I was gasping, riding that edge between too much and just right. One more hard slap, black leather against my red and white butt, and a scream of "YELLOW!" came tearing out of my mouth.

Immediately, he slowed his pace and softened the blows - but he kept them coming. He didn't stop - and i didn't want him to stop - he just slowed everything down softened it up a bit, and gave me some time and room to breathe.

After fifteen seconds or so, he dropped the belt and we moved on to another bit of the morning's entertainment.

That RED YELLOW GREEN thing?
It's handy for experienced subs and Dom/mes, too.

Red, Yellow, Green.

Other thing about 'em?

They're common sense. (Well, except for Green.) I'd used the "red, yellow" before I knew that there was a name or convention for them. (Cramping once, and a case of, as BlondGirl put it, "snot nose" convinced me we needed some way to communicate a non-violation-type problem. Yelling "Kleenex!" worked fine for that one, by the way.)

"Green" is especially useful for those who are shy about expressing their needs/wants. Even though I tend to be outspoken here, I learned long, long ago to never EVER make any requests/demands on my sexual partner and it is still a problem that I have yet to be able to beat. (Pun intended )

Green is one word, easily discernable, and unmistakable in meaning. I like green. (I have had a very shy lover use the code-word system in our sex play as well. This was someone who was hardly experienced in real-life sex. He had plenty of fantasizing under hsi belt though and was not unwilling to try things. As long as he did not have to talk too much. In fact, he became downright eager and used that "green" word a lot!)