alt*****style.master-slave discussion

Y'all know about usenet, don't you? It's... the wild west of forums. It's the MotherFatherGodGoddess of all the forums that exist online today. It's to forums what IRC is to chatrooms.

Anyway.

I still cruise selected usenet groups. One of them i peek into on occasion is called alt*****style.master-slave. In it i read a thread (When is a Master not a Master - wonder why i chose to read that one, hmmm?) that had a little sideline discussion develop concerning online vs. real life BDSM.

I tossed in my bit. Here it is.


~~~~~~
From: [my email addy here]
Newsgroups: alt*****style.master-slave
Subject: Re: When is a Master not a Master from Sugar

[someone else's personal info here] wrote:
<snip>
>online is not real! It is a farce of what BDSM is all about
<snip>

cym:
I used to spend a bunch of time enraged and/or self-righteously
haughty about this very thing. I came to BDSM in the days long before the net made it so easy to find others like me, like you, from times when jail was a real possibility for doing what we must do, and from a time when you learned this from doing it within a small, close-knit circle of adherents - or you didn't do it at all.

It was like that for us forever. From the times reaching back into
our history as a sexual sub-group, we've been hidden and scared.

The net changed all that.

Suddenly we were *FREE*! We were free to discuss everything we'd hidden so well, so furtively, for so long. I think that BDSM'ers must have been one of the earliest cohesive groups to coalesce from the net chaos of the early 90's.

We found out we weren't alone.
We spoke out.
We educated each other, as we've always done, but to a extent we couldn't have imagined even 10 years before then.

Then the net pretenders showed up. The Wanna-be Dommies and subbies that were just curious or horny or whatever came along and jumped into OUR puddle and messed it all up cuz they didn't do stuff our way.

They used to piss me off, those pretenders, those wanna-be's, those velcro-collared subbies screaming in online ecstasy as the 30' rawhide whip wielded by their MasterBigMan flayed them open to the delight and arousal of all onlookers in the chat room.

But these days i know a truth: we all get our pleasure in different
ways.

Isn't it better for us all overall, those of us who actually are out
there *doing* this stuff during our play parties and Folsom Street
Fairs, that those pretenders *WANT* to be like us? Aren't we safer now that so much of what we used to have to keep securely hidden is out in the open pretty much?

Yes, there are many people online who will never ever move from
chatroom-style BDSM play to the glorious intensity and majestic
eroticism of real live touching. I feel bad for them, to be honest.
They've read and learned so much, but have bound themselves against experiencing the fullness of this kind of love for some reason or another.

All the same, aren't we who are out with this safer because there are so many - so VERY many - of them? We aren't quite the deranged, child-stealing, immoral freaks we were 20 years ago, are we? These days, Hollywood even steals our toys as props in its movies, and it's ordinary for people in the music business to look like one of us "in role".

We're safer now because, in part, there are so many onliners who
refuse to see us as horrifying monsters.

I kinda like that.

And online BDSM play may well be a farce, as you say. It just as
easily could be seen as educational, or quite a revolutionary kind of fantasy play. Whatever it is, if it's keeping me safer, and allowing me a measure of dignity concerning my sexuality, dignity that's been tough to come by since i started doing this almost 30 years ago, then long live the farce!
cym

So...

How do you guys feel about the disparity between the two (online BDSM and real life BDSM) in terms of value to the participants? To my mind, there *is* a real difference between them and don't even try to give that old song and dance about them being the same thing cuz they just aren't. In my mind. What do you think are the benefits and pitfalls of each?

C'mon. Step right up. Speak your mind. We're all right in some ways and blindly wrong in others, and none of us is more right (except for ourself) than is any one else.

Speak up.
What are the pros and cons of online BDSM versus the kind where you really touch each other?

As I said in a post many moons ago, I believe we all practice what we practice to meet our own needs. As BDSM evolves and becomes more "mainstream", so to will the interpretation of BDSM evolve.

Does this mean "They" are wrong? No! They simply fulfill their needs as they see fitting.

Personally, having an on line relationship, BDSM or otherwise, is sadly lacking for me. I don't cyber for the same reason. I require the touch, the sounds, the smells and all of my senses involved in any sort of erotic experience.

It is for that reason that I would balk at any long distance relationship, regardless of how personal W/we try to make it.

My needs require proximity and accessibility. But, for those who want play, they should play on. If it weren't for the players, I may never have felt comfortable enough to explore this side of self.

I have much more to offer on the topic, but will have to do so another time.

Carry on! This should get very interesting!

cymbidia said:

So...

How do you guys feel about the disparity between the two (online BDSM and real life BDSM) in terms of value to the participants? To my mind, there *is* a real difference between them and don't even try to give that old song and dance about them being the same thing cuz they just aren't. In my mind. What do you think are the benefits and pitfalls of each?

C'mon. Step right up. Speak your mind. We're all right in some ways and blindly wrong in others, and none of us is more right (except for ourself) than is any one else.

Speak up.
What are the pros and cons of online BDSM versus the kind where you really touch each other?

Click to expand...

As lonely as I am...as much as I post here
As many ICQ "friends" as I have.......

Nothing....nothing replaces the real thing...

However

For many they discover BDSM D/s online.......
They learn and are educated
Those who realy decide it is for them.....go RT
For others they decide this is not for them
for whatever reason........

Still others...and to me these are the dangerious type....
but this is just my opinion
Are those that do not descover BDSM D/s online but a place to

MIND FUCK

Leaving behind the corpes of dead bodies

Richard

usenet

cymbidia said:

Y'all know about usenet, don't you? It's... the wild west of forums. It's the MotherFatherGodGoddess of all the forums that exist online today. It's to forums what IRC is to chatrooms.

cym

Click to expand...

This is embarressing...I have never heard of them

I think Richard hit it dead on--some people use the 'net to learn and to experience what they cannot (for whatever reason) in their real lives. Velcro collar or not, they expand the boundaries of what play can and does mean, and they bring BDSM to places it would and could never reach without it...places like non-Seattle Washington and Utah, for instance. (Some of you will get the friendly teasing in place here, others not so much...no offense intended) This helps all of us, as cym pointed out. Visibility goes a long way toward mainstreaming our little community.

Other people use the 'net to play destructive mind games, fucking with people who really *are* into this kinda thing, and are looking for a *real* connection with someone. Or they use it to enact fantasies that make no sense--or that give people the wrong ideas about what BDSM means in people's real lives...as if we all go around flaying each other with enormous bullwhips, leaving bloody messes in our wakes. The version of sadism that appears in some online forums is truly frightening, and gives credence to the kinds of arrogant B.S. the psych community has long said about us "deviants" and "perverts." That's destructive, and it hurts us all.

It's a mixed bag, no matter how you look at it. But you cannot have the benefits without accepting the problems. Life is balance, in this as in all things.

RT vs cyber time/space

.

Usenet 101

Usenet

Definition: A worldwide network of newsgroups (also called forums or message boards) on over 30,000 different topics.

Usenet consists of a set of "newsgroups" with names that are classified hierarchically by subject. "Articles" or "messages" are "posted" to these newsgroups by individual people. These articles are then broadcast to other interconnected computer systems via a wide variety of networks.

Some newsgroups are "moderated"; in these newsgroups, the articles are first sent to a moderator for approval before appearing in the newsgroup. In moderated newsgroups, there's no spam, the bane of most other newsgroups. (You've never seen spam like it exists out in the usenet on unmoderated sex-oriented newgroups.)

Newsgroups are named with a series of words and periods. For example, rec.pets.dogs.breeds is a place where people discuss every breed of dog from pit bulls to Chihuahuas (the rec is short for recreation). Alt*****style.master-slave is a place for people to discuss alternative lifestyles that comprise Master-slave situations; by definiton, it's a BDSM group.

One used to have to turn themselves inside out to access the usenet. These days, though, and for awhile, it's been pretty easy. After Deja took it over (2 or 3 years ago), anyone who wanted access got it. Now Google has popular control of the usenet and it's even more accessible.

Unfortunately, with this popular access has come some (perhaps not so unsurprising) limitations. In other words, when accessing the usenet from Google, for example, you cannot access many of the more extreme newgroups. For instance, there are a zillion usenet groups that are repositories for pics. Professional, yes, but, historically, many of these pics have been those taken by private people doing their thing, you know? Because some of these groups were dedicated to illegal and/or unsafe stuff (child pornography, bestiality, breath play, etc), all of them have been banned from the Google Usenet firmament. These kind of newsgroups were/are called alt.sex.bin.[insert subject here: bestiality or oral or anal or torture or *anything*, really]. ("bin" = binaries = pics)

One can still access the entire wild-west of the usenet but it's certainly not as easy as accessing the sanitized version.

Most of the stuff we here in this forum might be interested in can be found in the alternative.sexuality category in the usenet, deemed alt.sex.[whatever]. That is: newsgroups pertaining to matters of alternative sexuality. The category named soc (social issues) also contains some BDSM/lifestyle stuff.

How to get there:
1. Go to www.google.com
2. Click on the tag marked Groups
3. Click on alt
4. Go to the drop-down box.
5. Find satellite-sharesniffer (no i don't know what a sharesniffer is) and choose it.
6. Find alt.sex.* (221 groups) and click on it.
7. Page through and read to your heart's content. The green bars to the side of each newsgroup indicates relative activity (postings to) that one group.

Please remember that you're only seeing about, maybe, 3/4 (max) of the alt.sex groups at Google. They've done a LOT of sanitizing.

Have fun.

Thank you cym

Thnak you for educating this humble Dom ... make that ignorate Dom...about usenet.

However why do I feel you are holding something back <smile>

Richard

Hi, everyone. I’m not exactly new here (lurks a lot, says little), but couldn’t resist throwing my 2 cents in.

I’ve always had the inclination toward BDSM, even before I had ever heard that four letter acronym, but never had the opportunity to indulge those particular sexual proclivities. I found, not long after getting married, that the only thing worse than a reformed smoker is a reformed pervert. Such was my wife.

When we split up, I thought I had found the perfect time to, “Try my wings.” Online seemed the perfect place. But whenever I go to a BDSM chat room, I just can’t bring myself to play along. It just feels too much like kinky Dungeons & Dragons without the pretty dice. The concept of imaginary play at something I want so desperately to do in real life seems like going to a candy store where all you can do is think about the candy.

Incidentally, how does one find a female switch who is interested in playing with a forty year old complete novice?

By the way, this is the only place I’ve seen, on or offline, that I really feel comfortable enough to talk about this subject at all. I want to thank you all for creating this place.

If your main interest on Usenet is viewing pictures or videos, you can subscribe to GUBA( Gigantic Usenet Binary Archive) for US$10 a month. It's much easier to use, since you get thumbnails and dont have to download each file to view it, and they carry just about all the groups. Its www.guba.com

i got a couple of pennies..

Wow...am i ever dumb sometimes<blush>
i been CHARGING two cents, i'm learning.

Meanwhile, back at the topic...

Up until the VERY recent past all i "knew" was that BDSM was a group of unpenitent perverts who took "sadistic" or "masochistic" pleasure in doing painful and bizarre things.

That's the press you've been getting, i spoze you know.

What a week this has been! All those ideas were blown right off my world view when i 1st began to communicate with some of the most beautiful, intelligent, compassionate souls i've ever encountered.

They didn't try to recruit or lure me, but when i asked questions, led me to truths i had been seeking unconsciously for decades.

i can see where the "posers" and "fantasy players" are ridiculous in the games they play. If they have fun, that's great! They're literally not hurting anyone.

But in their lack of understanding of the basic concepts of "the lifestyle", they are impoverished in ways they'll never know.

They'll sit and watch "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire" rather than actually work to be one. They'll watch "Reality TV" instead of living the lives they've been granted.

Then when prime time is over, they head to their computers, go to some "Cyber Dungeon" and pretend they are torturing or being tortured without the slightest idea of what those words mean.

If it really does help protect those of you IN the field, God bless'em! i KNOW how badly people can be treated for being different.

All i really know for sure is that in the past week, the things i've learned have made me feel. Really FEEL.

For the first time in a LONG, long time i actually feel like touching and being touched again. That's a miracle.

So YES "Viva la Farce"! Beneath that cloud cover the truth can be told, and people like me can hear it.

May the Farce be with you. Stay Safe

Blue,
You're a credit to the uninitiated everywhere. You're kind of openmindedness is something many of us (as we've often discussed) wish there were more of in the world. It gives me great joy to feel like I've been a part of introducing you to this forum and this "sub-culture," for want of a better term.

I hope you continue to join the conversation for a long while to come.

cym, thanks for the usenet reminder, btw. I haven't checked out usenet for *ages*--at least since undergrad school. Just what I needed--more ways to waste time.

online vs real life....

I'm going to get bitch-slapped for this I 'spose.....
but here it is....
-----
I am, at this moment into an online long distance relationship with my Mistress. maybe I can be accused of doing this as cyber thing...but then,...yes I have used the net to learn since I do not have any real person to learn from....so I am guilty as charged for being a sorta cyber nut in bdsm....I apologize for that.

as to those that find it is for them and continue into real life...
I will be soon moving from iowa to california to be with Mistress in person...
does any of this make me bad person??? I hope not...but then I am unaware of a lot of things in this lifestyle. I have discovered many many things about myself since I started my at-home training online with Mistress....with phone calls in-between..
have I done anything wrong here by doing this in an online program? is this just for giggles??? at least no to the 2nd question. it is not for giggles. it is all too real to me.

does this help any here?????? or am I offbase?

mad dog in iowa

If i might field this one

Dear mad dog,
i think you'll find nothing but encouragment from this community in your long distance exploration of what RisiaSkye eloquently labeled "other ways of loving".

You are communicating with a real person, honestly opening yourself to a real relationship. You're even making plans to MOVE so that you might have real contact.

This is not at ALL the sort of thing that some here have been bemoaning. There are those who pretend to be part of the BDSM scene to lure the unwary into cyber-sex or phone sex, with no regard to the fact that they are playing with other people's lives.

A person tricked by one of these posers may lose their trust, their time or their interest in trying new and unusual forms of love.

They get burnt. The on-line faker gets his/her rocks off, but gives nothing to the trusting person who had shared their real feelings.

This kind of cheating can happen in a Real Time (if i interpret the letters RT correctly) situation like a club or lunch/munch group where people meet face to face. But it's a lot easier to be a cheater in the faceless arena of the Net.

The main thing is that if your on-line relationship is helping your sexuality grow into something more interesting, more satisfying, that is WONDERFUL! (ain't nobody gonna "bitch slap" you for that)

It seems that you are the exact opposite of the predatory types some have mentioned earlier. i KNOW how hard it is to find people with interest in this subject in the Midwest. The Web is a goldmine of good information. There's a LOT of bullshit out there too, so be careful.

The best of luck with your new relationship. You are embarking on one of the most interesting journeys of discovery this world can offer. So am i

So, to the rest of you, how'm i doing? Am i starting to understand? MadDog sound like a good guy?

i'm all ears...well mostly
Blue

thank you

thank you for the encouragements....I try hard to please...in more ways than one....for all people. I have a big heart but it gets me in trouble at times....

everyone please take care and hope to see more in here later on as time goes....

sincerely...
mad dog in iowa....aka garylee

just jumping in here to give kudos to DrXBlue on his fine response. Welcome,mad dog, hope you stick around.

Blue: as James said, you were right on the money. You're a quick study.

maddog: welcome, to Lit and to the Forum. Blessings to you and your Mistress as your relationship evolves.

thank you......

thank You RisiaSkye and to James Blandings,..for your welcome here...I will stay around as long as I am welcome here.\

do not wish to sound all-down here,...but there have....been a few sites I have tried to talk to people like this,...and gotten kicked off the site. I can only....guess I am just too realistic and too intense for some people. seems like Jack is right sometimes...
"they can't handle the truth".........

I have enjoyed these types of forums discussions vs going to a fast paced 20 somethings chatroom. I'm way too old for that I guess... I cannot keep up with the kids today...

and thank you once again.....

garylee////// aka,,,,,,,mad dog in iowa

I wanted to add my 2 cents in lol.....I have dealt with for a long time desires and fantasies that many partners or prospective partners deemed kinky or way over the top. I have had to repress desires that I had been taught were strange or that made me some kind of freak. I am through the internet learning that many of my needs and desires are commonplace in the BDSM culture. I have begun to feel very liberated. I have ran into a couple "predators" on-line who want to play at being a master and I foolishly thought they were the real thing until I came across wonderful sites such as this one. I just want to say be patient with those of us who stumble through the chat rooms "pretending" on our way to enlightenment. I hope one day to be collared by a master who trully understands my wants needs and desires until then I will keep surfing the net in search of more education and understanding.
Thanx

Very nice post, vampeyes and welcome to lit.

I would only disagree with one thing. Based on your views posted, you aren't "pretending". You are exploring. We all needed and do need time and a milieu to explore. (I did the same.)

The internet can be a wonderful and anonymous place to find out about ourselves.

Feel free to jump in with more than two cents worth !



It is almost paradoxical......to use such a public domain as the internet to discover our innermost selves.

*Just a random dumbass thought!*

Late is better than never.

rigged4dive said:

Online seemed the perfect place. But whenever I go to a BDSM chat room, I just can’t bring myself to play along. It just feels too much like kinky Dungeons & Dragons without the pretty dice. The concept of imaginary play at something I want so desperately to do in real life seems like going to a candy store where all you can do is think about the candy.

Click to expand...

For some, rigged4dive, wandering around chat rooms gives one the oppotunity to try on the feelings and fantasies of BDSM without the risk of going to actually do it. There's no shame in such seeking, either. It's a legitimate way to begin to learn something about one's own reactions to the fantasy version of what most of us here do for real. Some people cannot get offline for one reason or another, and the reasons are varied, ranging from being locked in marriages with non-participating spouses to stuck out in the middle of nowhere to physically challenged in a way that makes rt play improbable to... whatever. The reasons are endless.

The problem with online BDSM lies with those who use thier pretend power to decieve and hurt others. They seekout those who are new to an exploration of this kind of sexuality, this lifestyle, people who don't know what they can and can't expect within this arena. They prey on such peope, and hurt them. It's an ugly power trip for them - and is *NOT* BDSM.

Another problem is that online play becomes a refuge and prison for many who find a comfy online place, find status and acceptance, and forget that one comes online to learn, and then needs to come offline to make it real.

I don't blast onliners. If this was available when i was beginning, i would have been here, too. It's an extraordinary resource for those new to this way of thinking and feeling, and its power to unify and educate us all cannot be dismissed.

Always there are people who abuse whatever resource humanity has managed to uncover, from those who dealt in slaves for personal profit to gunrunners to pimps who live easily on the labors of thier prostitutes. So it is within the net. Many online dominant and submissives (Have you noticed that there are never many Switches around online places? Funny. There's a BUNCH of them in real life.) are good and you can learn a lot from them. Some are frauds and will hurt you. Unfortunately, none of them wear signs so you just have approach every onliner with some judicious caution, i think.

In an event and bottom line, if ALL interactions between BDSM'ers, online or not, are not SSC-based, then those people are suspect. Such is true in my view, anyway.

just my 2 cents

didn't nobody pull my chain, so I may be out of line here. I apologize if I am. when I first got 'online' a year ago, it was to do my own homework on ths bdsm world, after struggling all my life to try to find some kind of happiness in the vanilla world and never found it. relationship after another and again,,over and over.... never ever find a way to feel like I belong anywhere...''to'' anyone. a year later, I have been lucky. I found a respected experienced Mistress,...in a message board on a bdsm site. I sort of''placed an ad'' in the messages, and got an email reply.
my first gut feeling was fear, of not knwoing if this was real or someone's game. I stalled for a bit....and did some checking around to see if anyone knew this person. yes they did and yes it was all too real. good enough for me. about, maybe 7 weeks later,...I am now inprocess of going to Her domain for real, for good..a permanent move from state to state.
---------
there are too many out there,,in those chat rooms saying they know this or that. a lot of phonies. I found a man pretending he was female to get responses...that was sick to me...
talk about head games. I seen an article about a sex maniac killing unsuspecting women...pretending he was a true master.
what's the phrase???? oh yeah...."NOT!"
---
I also suggest everyone check things out for their own safety..
just because "I" got lucky doesn't mean everyone will....

it can be dangerous out there....even for men...we can be deceived too.

please take care and be good to yourself...

mad dog in iowa

ummm..yeah

maddog: welcome, to Lit and to the Forum. Blessings to you and your Mistress as your relationship evolves.

----
for what it is worth dept:....
I sent out a note to Mistress Ann and told Her as of recently...I made the decision to make the choice of letting-go of any notions for what I am told are called 'safe' words. I have thought long and hard,..and after the last 2 months with Her...the emails, the phone calls....and doing some self-research around the net...
it has been my decision that since I feel completely safe and secure in Her training, Her care....She has been so so very compassionate and gentle with me....She has assured me there is never any alarm for permanent body damages.....
I told Her I have let myself go completely and trust Her 150%.

it is the first time in many years I have ever trusted anyone this much.

everyone take care out there!!!!!!

mad dog

Cymbidia, I would like to thank you for your reply, but I did not mean to imply that I have anything against people who prefer their play online, for whatever reason. To each his own. I simply meant to say that it just doesn’t work for me. Makes me feel silly.

I suppose it could help to try on BDSM online; being very inexperienced myself, I can’t be sure. But somehow I have the feeling that it is the same as some other activities that I enjoy. No matter how much you fantasize about it, you will never know about rock climbing until you find yourself about 75 ft off the ground, hanging by your finger & toenails. The only way to know whether motorcycling is for you, is to throw your leg over one and hit the starter, and no amount of Playstation motocross will change that.