Too experienced

From the Switch Space thread (http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1310671#post1310671):

NemoAlia said:

Here's the thing: I started as a sub. I still "play" online from a sub perspective. However, in real life, I have yet to meet someone who has such a strong practical foundation and such a broad experience in BDSM as I do.

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I understand your feelings of frustration. I share them. In my life right now, i’m in a very similar situation: i’ve got many years of practical hands-on BDSM play behind me and am totally unattached and looking for a Dominant. Most of those i’ve been meeting of late have expressed reservations upfront about my experience level and decide not to pursue anything with me because they feel… inferior?

I’m not sure what they feel, to be honest.

All i know for certain is that all the years of doing this i’ve got behind me are, apparently, a negative when trying to grow a new BDSM relationship. I’m pretty depressed about this whole business, to be honest, having watched another promising relationship dissolve around my feet just yesterday. It dissolved, i think, because he was feeling like he was in over his head with me but didn’t (for some reason) talk about it until it got to the that crucial “gotta go” point.

This disparity often frustrates me, since I don't like to top from the bottom, but I absolutely can't stand being mishandled by a Dom. Moreover, I have found that people who don't have as varied a D/s history as I do haven't had the opportunity to imagine scenes beyond the stereotypical fare; and so my limits almost never get tested, and I'm almost never surprised.

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I try not to top from the bottom, thinking it a form of dishonesty, but it does happen, you know? It will, for any of us. When i do it, i despair sometimes at how easy it is to do with less experienced Dominants.

Does our experience count as a negative for those of us who’ve been doing this for a long time?

Where’s the line where it goes from being a positive to being a thing of shame and un-want?

Should i lie to potentials at the beginning in order to make them more comfy with me? (No, no, no, i cannot do that, will not do that. But i really want to, some days.)

I'm beginning to suspect that I should use my experience and skill for good -- that if I evangelize, there will come a new generation of available, skilled Doms. But I hate teaching people about D/s from the bottom. It's nearly impossible, and I'm never satisfied. So I'm considering switching.

Has anyone else faced a similar decision? What did you do?

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I can’t switch. It makes me distinctly uncomfortable and i don’t find topping to be erotic, only vaguely stressing. I cannot help you since i’m also locked in the prison of too-much-experience without a way out, apparently.

Does the erotic thrill of BDSM exist without some element of surprise for the sub? That is to say, will I ever enjoy subbing again? I don't want really want to have my limits pushed any further than they've already been extended, but I don't want to fall into a rut either. I know I sound a little desperate and silly, but these are the things I think about, sometimes.

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If you are desperate, then so am i.
That doesn't help you, i know. I'm sorry.

I tell all new-to-me potential Dominants, and it is true for me, that every person makes it all new again. I’ve had a crop used on my ass a million times, yes, but not by you and not in this room and not while I was feeling exactly like this. I mean it and i believe it. Most of the time, anyway.

However, playing with someone new these days is sometimes sorta frustrating, to be totally honest. For example, i’ve been cropped a million times and i'm pretty sure how i'll respond to it in most cases. I know how my limits have been pushed with a crop in my past. I know where a scene often moves from there.

Just like anyone, i remember my past.

Sometimes someone new-to-me just won’t/can't/doesn't understand the intimate juxtaposition of that crop and my ass. They’ll be hesitant or slow or sloppy or careless. Then my mind takes me back, maybe to the Dom who moaned about being one with the crop while he cropped me or the Domme who used it with such stunning finesse between my legs, choosing to never once to touch my ass.

Is that wrong?
How can i stop such rememberings?
Don't we all do that in our intimate relationships, experienced or not so experienced?

Maybe i am not suitable for someone just finding his/her way as a Dominant. Maybe those who’ve told me that, in so many words, have been right. Maybe i am simply… excess, now, in this part of my life as a submissive.

I never considered that i would get to a place where my experience would count against me in the matter of the heated touching we all so crave, but maybe i am there. Maybe my words in places like this are all i have of value left to give.

I'm at a very uncertain sort of crossroads, I think, and I'll take whatever input any of you are willing to offer. [/B]

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This isn’t what you came looking for, I think.

I have no answers, only a troubled heart about the very same issue.
I am sorry.

Your answer

cymbidia said:

From the Switch Space thread (http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1310671#post1310671):


I have no answers, only a troubled heart about the very same issue.
I am sorry.

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You gave the answer.......

It lays in communications.
Perhaps also in lays in the Doms responsiblity to get inside of the head of the subbie.


I have been in the D/s part of the lifestyle fora very long time.....yet every new subbie is a new experences for me....

I enter as unsure as the first time......

yes a D/s relationship is about the exchange of power....however how that "acts out/behaves/looks like" is always different.

What are the subbies expernces,limites,fatasies,ideas of rewards,ideas of punishment etc.

I need t ohear them talk...listen, ask questions, reach into there minds.....yet maintain control first and formost of myself...

In some ways each must move slowly...explore...talk.....explore some more.....

I have had some subbies that think I move to slow...others that think I move to slow.....the subbies that are thinkers as whiole as doers like my pace

Richard

I wish I had the answers to this.

For fsubs, I think part of the problem is a tendency among MDoms to be attached to the silly fantasy of finding a kinky teenage virgin to make their very own forever. We live in a stupidly ageist society, and sex is one of the places where that really affects women in an ugly way that men seem to avoid recogizing, which they feed into. If the arrogance of aging men is a myth, please call me on it; I doubt, however, that I'm the only one to have ever noticed this.

Part of the problem, also, is fear. Dom/mes don't like feeling insecure, and if you have more experience than they do, it undermines their sense of control, I think. To me, those Dom/mes clearly aren't very comfortable with who they are as Tops. It is not your job to educate those people, either. This is not your *fault*.

There are several ways to approach this. Look only for experienced Tops; give them a chance to get to know you and get comfortable--if they are insecure, so are you, right? Maybe that will get easier with more knowledge of each other; you *could* down-play your experience, but it hardly seems honest; you could gently "top from below" and train a Dom/me you feel a strong enough attraction to that you *want* to develop them; or, you could chalk it up to the difficulties of finding a partner and decide to exercise the patience your subbing has helped you to develop--wait it out, play the field, and keep looking for the right one.

This is tough for me to answer, both because I'm young and because I Switch. While I'm reasonably experienced, I think this difficulty in finding a partner actually has a good deal to do with age, as my level of experience can't be easily *assumed* based on my age, and it doesn't seem to put people off. Also, because I Switch, it's easier for me to Top someone in order to teach them how I liked to be Topped. I don't really have to mess with the intricate and unsettling dance of "topping from below," unless I choose to do it (something I've discussed at length in the past.)

I wish much luck and happiness to Nemo & cym; would that I could do more than wish you well.

Best,
RS

Experiences

We are who we are. Our past experiences are what has brought us to where we are today. cym, you cannot change who you are and what your cravings, desires and needs are. "We wants what we wants" doesn't always mean that we get it. Furthermore, we cannot be in a rush to get what we need. I am sorry that a future relationship dissolved at your feet but I am a firm believer that if it is meant to be it WILL be.
Communication and honesty are very important and that is why we cannot change and we should never try to change who and what we are. cym, never give up. I know that you will eventually meet someone who gives you what you need and you give him what he needs. I do believe that there will be a happy ending for you but do not rush it, cym. Believe in you, cym, believe in you!

I may not have a lot to offer this thread other than warm thoughts and a *ditto* on fallon's post.

I have had the opportunity to talk with Dom's with less experience than myself.

Sometimes, I feel like I am topping them as they have so much to learn. (Keep in mind, I am new to the lifestyle)

But.....and this may be food for thought here, or for passers by...

I try not to get too enmeshed in discussions concerning my experience and wants. I find that in having a checklist type discussion, it seems that we place ourselves and our potential partners in a box. Do they fit? Do they not?

A relationship is based on growth and a good Dom knows this. My needs include certain activities, but the greater need is to please, serve and be cherished. To that end, discussing exactly how I like to be spanked and when I like to be spanked and how many times I like to be spanked is almost as if I am creating a template for the relationship. IF the Dom hears this and never moves beyond what I have suggested, there is no growth.

One can't help but remember.....but there are times, a bit of vagueness is a good thing.

Now, speaking from inexperience....in your previous relationship was your Dom able to render the crop exactly as you enjoyed on the first occasion? Or did you need to find your mutual "rythm?"
Starting over is difficult on all ends, emotionally, socially and physically. Getting to know one another and, if you will, mold one another to meet our mutual needs can be a long process.

I am afraid I have gone way off topic, but these are some of the thoughts that occurred to me as I was reading the thread.

*hugs* to cym and Nemo

off topic?

MissTaken said:

Now, speaking from inexperience....in your previous relationship was your Dom able to render the crop exactly as you enjoyed on the first occasion? Or did you need to find your mutual "rythm?"
Starting over is difficult on all ends, emotionally, socially and physically. Getting to know one another and, if you will, mold one another to meet our mutual needs can be a long process.

I am afraid I have gone way off topic, but these are some of the thoughts that occurred to me as I was reading the thread.

*hugs* to cym and Nemo

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I think you have added to the wisdom of this thread.

Thank you Miss Taken

Richard

Just about everything I thought to add to this thread has been said, particularly by RisiaSkye.
I think this is largely a problem of sexism. I do not find that I have a similar problem when I submit to a less experienced FemDom.
Too many male dominants seem to suffer from performance anxiety. They are afraid to admit that they dont know everything, or that their skills are not at the level they imagine they should be. So they are uncomfortable with someone who might be able to see through them. What is so absurd about this attitude is that there is no better way for a dominant to learn than from an experienced sub. Just look at how much cymbidia has given us on this board, and you will kno what I mean. The idea that anyone who is afraid to learn might "dominate" another person sort of creeps me out.

I'm not sure that it's a question of age, although I agree that we live in youth-centered society. I'm young, but (and maybe this is just my own ego talking) I feel like it's my unexpected experience that keeps me a step or two ahead of even the most mature partners. Although maybe "ahead" isn't the word -- I feel like it's anything but success to beat them at their own game.

Still, I'm lucky enough not to feel uncomfortable topping them (like cymbidia does). I just don't find it erotic. And since I don't get off on it, I feel dishonest -- like I'm some sort of researcher measuring their responses and charting them for posterity. And sex should never be clinical like that.

Blech -- it's late, and I feel like there are things to which I wanted to respond but which I just can't remember right now. But cym, what did you mean when you implied that I wasn't actually looking for advice? Goodness gracious, what kind of girl do you think I am?! ...hehe

Oh, I remember what I wanted to say: I'm worried that searching for domination at this stage in the game is going to lead me down a slippery slope that will wind up in a Reage-like oblivion. Already my trend in dating is to fall in with megalomanic people (who are easy to find) who give me all the loss of control of a BDSM relationship with none of the trust or love. For my own safety it seems like I ought to break out of this trend somehow, and switching to Domme seems like a reasonable alternative. But how do I learn to enjoy it?

Lying

Oh yeah, and cym -- that temptation to lie to potentials? Been there, too. I've even done that. ("Oh no, please not my ass!") But it only hurts me inside, and it gets in the way of actually enjoying myself. And it makes me notice my frustration in the Dom's inexperience even more if he can't catch me lying and call me on it. Whatever happens, lying only makes it worse for me.

NemoAlia said:

Already my trend in dating is to fall in with megalomanic people (who are easy to find) who give me all the loss of control of a BDSM relationship with none of the trust or love. For my own safety it seems like I ought to break out of this trend somehow, and switching to Domme seems like a reasonable alternative. But how do I learn to enjoy it?

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True. No Shortage of assholes out there.

It sounds to me like you're a sub. D <-Grinning at my own brilliant deductive powers.)

Near as I can tell, and If I'm full of excrement, please feel free to disabuse me of yet another layer of ignorance I may posess, There isn't any way to "learn to enjoy" Dominating somone. It's either in you, part of you, or it isn't. For me, switching is not a dry, clinical process (unless I'm doing a Mad Doctor Role Play, but there, it's part of the game.), it's a sharing of an experience. The person submitting to me is doing so from a place of love and trust, and has a certain expectation of the whole thing, which I feel a thrill to provide for. The sheer fun of providing someone with what they need (and/or want) is something that can't be learned, can't be taught.

My own appreciation for such moments is heightened by the fact that I have been there, I have some firsthand knowledge of what they want and need, and get a vicarious thrill from what they're experiencing at my hands.

My only advice is to look for that vicarious thrill, know what they're going through, from having been there yourself. Let their fun be your fun.

<edited add-on>

You might want to try role-play scenes as a Domme. Half the fun there is coming up with a scene and the other half is "acting" your part.

Other side of the coin?

Richard49 got my attention when he gave us a glimpse of what's in his head when he's beginning a relationship with a new sub. I wonder if that "every new subbie is like the first time" mentality is common among Dom/mes. I also wonder what the other factors are that affect a Dom/me's perception of a new sub. Anyone?

Re: Other side of the coin?

NemoAlia said:

Richard49 got my attention when he gave us a glimpse of what's in his head when he's beginning a relationship with a new sub. I wonder if that "every new subbie is like the first time" mentality is common among Dom/mes. I also wonder what the other factors are that affect a Dom/me's perception of a new sub. Anyone?

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Is this a good thing I do? <smile>

Just checking.......

Richard

I would say yes, that's a good thing! Would that every potential Dom felt that way.

NemoAlia

NemoAlia said:

I would say yes, that's a good thing! Would that every potential Dom felt that way.

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It sounds like you are a subbie. True?

Tell us a little about you and your experences.

Richard

I'll admit I'm a little shy to talk much about myself -- probably due to my egotistical belief that someone out there might recognize me from the real world and nip my career in the bud. But I'm sure that's not an unusual story on these boards.

Sadly, I don't usually get to spend a lot of time here. This week is an exception, though, thank goodness.

Yeah, Richard, I suppose I'm a "subbie." Or, at least, I have the potential to be. I've been in one really strong D/s relationship (polyamorous, though, so it had a teaspoon of vanilla for the third party's sake) which had the arguably positive effect of raising my expectations for future relationships.

Of course, most of these "future relationships" have turned out to be pretty vanilla, although in the past few weeks I have found myself involved with someone who seems eager to dominate me. He is, however, one of those strong and silent types -- the "silent" being what bothers me. I'm concerned that we might not see eye to eye on things (read: that he's just in this for his own ego) and so I cannot relax enough to trust him.

He is, however, the exception to the rule. Usually I find myself "topping from the bottom" rather frustratingly, or avoiding D/s entirely.

Shy

NemoAlia said:

I'll admit I'm a little shy to talk much about myself -- probably due to my egotistical belief that someone out there might recognize me from the real world and nip my career in the bud. But I'm sure that's not an unusual story on these boards.

Sadly, I don't usually get to spend a lot of time here. This week is an exception, though, thank goodness.


He is, however, the exception to the rule. Usually I find myself "topping from the bottom" rather frustratingly, or avoiding D/s entirely.

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Thank you for sharing with us.....I have a high profile in my community...I find the best way fo hiding is hiding in the open >>>>>><Smile>

Sorry to read that you may not be on here much.

If you ever need/want any of us we are here.....U can always PM me,ICQ or Yahoo im me also...and yes you can email me here.

Richard

I am new so forgive the opinion if it offends please....

I understand the frustration a little bit that you go thru being to experienced...just as I go thru the frustration of not being experienced enough yet not being able to find anyone to train me. LOL....kind of a cath 22 dont you think?

I have now found someone just as inexperienced as me that is willing to try the BDSM relationship...the problem is that even though I am inexperienced I at least have some knowledge in the area even if it is on line....he had never really even heard of BDSM(other than movies) until me.

It is really difficult....but we are trying....So I hear ya and I hope you find someone worthy of your experiences that is willing to learn from you instead of running....


satin

Satin, Thanks for your support! And good luck to you and yours (or whatever opposite form of possession I suppose I ought to use here!) in your experimentation and discovery.

Heh -- a funny tidbit: It took me three times through reading your name before I understood that you are a fabric, not Lucifer. I think it's 'cause I was reading someone's work the other day and came across the phrase, "satin and his minions." Obviously a computer spell-check error, but sooo funny. I even called my mother to read it to her over the phone!

Okay, maybe it's not that funny, but I was definitely in need of a laugh at the time, and I found a good excuse. Anyway, good luck in all that comes your way, and take care of those minions!

nemo....

Thanks! ! I needed a good laugh right now....(personal tid-bit) I am in quite a bit of pain at the moment....I have a pinched nerve under my right shoulder blade that is killing me....I am going to the chiropractor tomorrow *crosses fingers* lets hope it helps.. .

Yes alot of people mistake my name....I play Ultima Online as well and my name in there is also Satin. People are always walking up to me saying "Hail Satan" it's funny.

As for my status....I am definitly sub. I would'nt have the slightest idea how to Dom if my life depended on it...lol.

Feel free to e-mail or anything if you wish to speak further....or here is fine too....

Thanks again...
satin

Dear Cym

.

Oh H, i mostly write like i breathe - without second guessing myself. Some of my words are, therefore, true for now, this insrtance, and will not be true for me tomorrow. Some of them are life-truths. Sometimes i can't tell the difference between the two.

However, i don't tend to stay down in the dumps or at odds with myself for too long. I'm a kinda sunny person and get past the bad stuff pretty quickly, mostly cuz i bore the hell out of myself when i'm down, i think. I have a low boredom threshold.

In any case, i was depressed and feeling like excess when i began this thread; now i am not. Nothing has changed but the passage of a few days. Sometimes that's all it takes, too.

And i was vunerable. I still am. I think we all are, in many ways, and particularly here, in this introspective place where we examine the basics of who we are and why we are and what we want (and don't have).

But i'm fine.
Don't worry.

Strength and resillence

.

cym

Glad to see you here and that you are doing better.....

For me without a sub in my life and having to be "on the hunt" I go up and down like a yohoo......<smile>
Though not down as much or as deep

I was in a loving D/s relationship that lasted about two months and just ended. For me, I would say it was all-encompassing and my nick here reflects my state - my sub was much more experienced than I. At times it was a little daunting, but not so much that I lost focus or confidence - her checklist gave me so much from which to choose and even with as much as we saw one another the development of the D/s side of our relationship really only just got started. I wish it had gone on for the years-long potential I thought it had, but she wasn't ready to commit in the way I wanted.

I know I did help her expand limits she didn't quite know could be expanded.

It was wonderful while it lasted. Maybe it can happen again some day, when we're in different states in life.

Hi cym

Don't know if this wil help much or not, but fwiw, I've had relationships with very experienced submissives, and with absolutely new to the scene ones. Each is it's own learning experience and opportunity for me to grow.

I LIKE having an experienced submissive who knows where her limits are. The experienced submissive often helps me grow my own limits, and as mine expand I can begin to push hers. An experienced submissive can help me grow my relationship leading skills. And toppng from the bottom? *evil grin* The experienced submissive may try. However, I know I _always_ can say, "nope, sorry, I want to .... " and keep right on marching. It's MY decision to go along with it or not.

New submissives give me the opportunity grow my experience as a teacher and leader too. But new submissives require work and energy to teach and train that I may not want to expend. And new submissives, particularly if they are new masochists, may not have limits that challenge me to grow. I frequently have to throttle back the intensity of play with new submissives because they simply do not have the tolerance level to go where I want to play.

Don't despair of never finding a good relationship with a Dominant, either new or experienced. You might have to check out a LOT of toads along the way, but there ARE princes to be found.