Are slaves......

Inferior and powerless? Are they supposed to accept physical and mental abuse from a Master? Is this what being a slave is?

I sit here and read over and over that abuse is acceptable if you are a slave. Its ok to hit in anger and a slave is inferior. I know this to not be true...none of it. How do i know? Because a slave is what i am, always have been ,and always will be. Sure there are differences in each relationship, but come on ppl, is it really worth damaging your head, heart and soul to hang on to a man who is nothing but abusive and using Ds and BDSM to disguise it?
Does anyone feel the same about this or not the same...i really would like some feedback about this. Just for a little added info on me, so i dont get told im a newbie and know nothing.In this lifestlye for a long long time. I was an owned slave for 6 yrs 24/7...out in the real world that is.Ive been owned by others, but with a contract for a certain amount of time. I have helped others learn, with their Masters approval also. I am a pain slut w/out any known limits, had more then one Dom/sub relationship in my lifetime and for the life of me can not understand why ppl are thinking this is a dark horrible place to be. Its supposed to make you feel good, and safe ,and where you belong. I just cant sit back and watch ppl damage themselves because they refuse to see. All of this is all my own opinion , just to make it clear that im not looking for posts that agree, just a little understanding of things here.

Re

I am a little bit afraid to say something but I do it anyway...
My take on it is when you starts to loose respect for the human being something is not ok anymore.
There are so fine lines were it is still ok to hurt somebody because it is in content with your partner.
But I think when it is out of anger it is not acceptable, this is no accuse for any bad behavior.
He/she should use a punching ball but not be a Dom/ Domme.
Only my humbled opinion.

Kajira Callista said:

Inferior and powerless? Are they supposed to accept physical and mental abuse from a Master? Is this what being a slave is?

I sit here and read over and over that abuse is acceptable if you are a slave. Its ok to hit in anger and a slave is inferior.

Click to expand...

i've never read on this board that abuse is acceptable or to hit in anger is acceptable if you're a slave. i am sure if that was uttered, the uproar would be defeaning. Are you referring to this board or another? If it is this board, please provide a link to the statements made in this regard. In addition, slaves are inferior to their Dominants. Not as human beings, but as slaves. A slaves position is not equal with his/her Master/Mistress, but he/she is no less a human being despite his/her slavery. Powerless? Yes, the power does not lie with the slave. He/she gives up power once collared as is expected. While it shouldn't mean the loss of the right to be treated decently (although, as a slave, You give up even that right), it does mean placing the power of self into the hands of another with the understanding that it is given completely and without codicils. This is exactly why entering into a slave relationship should be done with forethought. The oness is on the slave to be careful about who he/she chooses as a Master/Mistress.

I know this to not be true...none of it. How do i know? Because a slave is what i am, always have been ,and always will be. Sure there are differences in each relationship, but come on ppl, is it really worth damaging your head, heart and soul to hang on to a man who is nothing but abusive and using Ds and BDSM to disguise it?

Click to expand...

Of course it isn't worth it. That's common sense, but we all know that common sense can fly out of the window when dealing with love or even larger issues of emotional and mental problems. i think it goes without saying that it is unhealthy to hold onto a relationship (D/s or otherwise) which is abusive.

Does anyone feel the same about this or not the same...i really would like some feedback about this. Just for a little added info on me, so i dont get told im a newbie and know nothing.In this lifestlye for a long long time. I was an owned slave for 6 yrs 24/7...out in the real world that is.Ive been owned by others, but with a contract for a certain amount of time. I have helped others learn, with their Masters approval also. I am a pain slut w/out any known limits, had more then one Dom/sub relationship in my lifetime and for the life of me can not understand why ppl are thinking this is a dark horrible place to be. Its supposed to make you feel good, and safe ,and where you belong. I just cant sit back and watch ppl damage themselves because they refuse to see. All of this is all my own opinion , just to make it clear that im not looking for posts that agree, just a little understanding of things here.

Click to expand...

Aside from your listed experiences, the fact that people will view BDSM as deviant is to be expected. Whether you care is a different matter entirely. For those who have had positive experiences with BDSM and continue to do so, we're well aware of the benefits of this culture. However, it is also a reality that some people will use BDSM to mask deeper issues. The key is learning to discern abuse from BDSM and frankly speaking, some will have to go through a tough time before realizing the difference.

i doubt you will have much disagreement as what you've stated merely echos what people here tend to strive for imo, and that isn't argument worthy.

lara

Just as there are different varieties of M/s relationships, so are there variations on what makes people happy. I made a decision to be a slave 24/7, and outside of parting through death, to only commit to that once because that is how I prefer it and feel most comfortable with it. I don't identify with a succession of Masters to whom I will be slave for many reasons, most obvious my love of challenge and extremes. I don't identify with the idea of time contracts or clauses to allow walking out the door when times get difficult for one reason or another. Others prefer the safety of limits and contracts and that works for them, just not for me.

My happiness comes from within me, but is added to by the type relationship I sought and found. I was careful in my search and would not have committed to someone who felt hitting in anger was OK. I think that is an important point to remember, you have choices before you commit so you ensure as best you can you know what you are committing to and with whom as my type M/s relationship does not allow for changing partners afterwards. Awareness is a necessity, as is sharing a similar idea of the 24/7 M/s relationship before any commitments are made.

I do not personally condone hitting in anger, but if another slave is content with that and happy, that is their choice and I do not see I have a right to tell them they are crazy just because it goes against what I prefer and believe in. I am sure there are many slaves/subs who would tell me my relationship is also crazy because of elements such as sharing, bullwhipping to blood, no limits basis, TPE, which they would not commit to or enjoy, but does that mean I am crazy? I don't think so, just my choices do not fit theirs. I am not inferior as a human being, I am not weak (quite the opposite), I do not feel abused, I just love being in a relationship which is TPE in the context of he holds all the power over everything in my life.

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

Just as there are different varieties of M/s relationships, so are there variations on what makes people happy. I made a decision to be a slave 24/7, and outside of parting through death, to only commit to that once because that is how I prefer it and feel most comfortable with it. I don't identify with a succession of Masters to whom I will be slave for many reasons, most obvious my love of challenge and extremes. I don't identify with the idea of time contracts or clauses to allow walking out the door when times get difficult for one reason or another. Others prefer the safety of limits and contracts and that works for them, just not for me.

My happiness comes from within me, but is added to by the type relationship I sought and found. I was careful in my search and would not have committed to someone who felt hitting in anger was OK. I think that is an important point to remember, you have choices before you commit so you ensure as best you can you know what you are committing to and with whom as my type M/s relationship does not allow for changing partners afterwards. Awareness is a necessity, as is sharing a similar idea of the 24/7 M/s relationship before any commitments are made.

I do not personally condone hitting in anger, but if another slave is content with that and happy, that is their choice and I do not see I have a right to tell them they are crazy just because it goes against what I prefer and believe in. I am sure there are many slaves/subs who would tell me my relationship is also crazy because of elements such as sharing, bullwhipping to blood, no limits basis, TPE, which they would not commit to or enjoy, but does that mean I am crazy? I don't think so, just my choices do not fit theirs. I am not inferior as a human being, I am not weak (quite the opposite), I do not feel abused, I just love being in a relationship which is TPE in the context of he holds all the power over everything in my life.

Catalina

Click to expand...

I didnt do well with the contract stuff either, it was too heartbreaking for me personally. You are also secure in the fact that your Master will not destroy you, and thats good, to be secure. You write he holds the power over everything in your life and i know thats a good feeling, but you also know he respects you and wants your life to be wonderful. I guess what im saying is im seeing alot of beginers jumping in and taking the plunge w/out really knowing whats at the bottom of the pool. Thanks for the input. Like i said i started this thread to get all sides.

Re: Re: Are slaves......

s'lara said:

i've never read on this board that abuse is acceptable or to hit in anger is acceptable if you're a slave. i am sure if that was uttered, the uproar would be defeaning. Are you referring to this board or another? If it is this board, please provide a link to the statements made in this regard. In addition, slaves are inferior to their Dominants. Not as human beings, but as slaves. A slaves position is not equal with his/her Master/Mistress, but he/she is no less a human being despite his/her slavery. Powerless? Yes, the power does not lie with the slave. He/she gives up power once collared as is expected. While it shouldn't mean the loss of the right to be treated decently (although, as a slave, You give up even that right), it does mean placing the power of self into the hands of another with the understanding that it is given completely and without codicils. This is exactly why entering into a slave relationship should be done with forethought. The oness is on the slave to be careful about who he/she chooses as a Master/Mistress.



Of course it isn't worth it. That's common sense, but we all know that common sense can fly out of the window when dealing with love or even larger issues of emotional and mental problems. i think it goes without saying that it is unhealthy to hold onto a relationship (D/s or otherwise) which is abusive.



Aside from your listed experiences, the fact that people will view BDSM as deviant is to be expected. Whether you care is a different matter entirely. For those who have had positive experiences with BDSM and continue to do so, we're well aware of the benefits of this culture. However, it is also a reality that some people will use BDSM to mask deeper issues. The key is learning to discern abuse from BDSM and frankly speaking, some will have to go through a tough time before realizing the difference.

i doubt you will have much disagreement as what you've stated merely echos what people here tend to strive for imo, and that isn't argument worthy.

lara [/B]

Click to expand...

None of this was meant as argument, just plain ol discussion. I think im seeing a few headed in a bad direction...something that i feel can sometimes be avoided. Is it any of my business? Probably not. Is it gonna stop me from posting to try to help.....nope. And thanks for your reply...the echo was what i was looking for

Here is another thing...so often the subs and slaves post replies to questions like these. They always have wonderful responses, dont get me wrong.But I think that maybe if we heard a little more for the Dominants and Masters, the picture would be clearer?

Since I consider myself a Dominant, I will try to give my viewpoint on this.

First let me start I think there are way too many who call themselves Dominant and really way too many that call themselves Master, who in my eyes are not worthy to be part of the human race.

Hitting in anger is out of the question and even if the sub thinks it is fine and considers that to be part of a BDSM D/s relationship it is not. A dominant that hits in anger is abusive and not a dominant at all. Giving pain is an art form and it entails a lot of knowledge and to achieve the maximum and desired result it needs control, knowledge, science and talent.

A slave or submissive for that part, is not a weak person, if anything a slave and submissive needs to be an incredibly strong person. It takes strength of character and willpower to be a submissive, to trust another person with your life. Anyone who sees a sub/slave as a weak individual in my eyes is a vanilla, or a brainless zombie.

Now it is also very easy to enforce our own viewpoints on others in the lifestyle, and this is dangerous, what we might consider abuse might be for others completely normal. For example hitting with a closed fist, is considered by many irresponsible but if it is done by two consenting adults who are both aware of all of the risks then how are we to condemn them. What is the difference then between us and vanilla, they condemn us for spanking or whipping our partners, do we really want to be like that or should we try to be more enlightened.

Francisco.

catalina_francisco said:

Since I consider myself a Dominant, I will try to give my viewpoint on this.

First let me start I think there are way too many who call themselves Dominant and really way too many that call themselves Master, who in my eyes are not worthy to be part of the human race.

Hitting in anger is out of the question and even if the sub thinks it is fine and considers that to be part of a BDSM D/s relationship it is not. A dominant that hits in anger is abusive and not a dominant at all. Giving pain is an art form and it entails a lot of knowledge and to achieve the maximum and desired result it needs control, knowledge, science and talent.

A slave or submissive for that part, is not a weak person, if anything a slave and submissive needs to be an incredibly strong person. It takes strength of character and willpower to be a submissive, to trust another person with your life. Anyone who sees a sub/slave as a weak individual in my eyes is a vanilla, or a brainless zombie.

Now it is also very easy to enforce our own viewpoints on others in the lifestyle, and this is dangerous, what we might consider abuse might be for others completely normal. For example hitting with a closed fist, is considered by many irresponsible but if it is done by two consenting adults who are both aware of all of the risks then how are we to condemn them. What is the difference then between us and vanilla, they condemn us for spanking or whipping our partners, do we really want to be like that or should we try to be more enlightened.

Francisco.

Click to expand...

Thank you Francisco. What you said about giving pain is so true and im thinking exactly why i feel so disturbed by some of the posts i read. It is an art form and it needs to be controlled...and there is a reason for it...I think we are all well aware of the fact that things could go badly quickly without the control behind it. Good person, bad person ,evil ,abusive, or the perfect Dominant, in the heat of the moment things can get screwed up fast. And if there is anger behind the pain giving, that only kicks it up a notch in my opinion. If a dominant is not in control of themself...how can they possibly control another safely? Thank you for giving your Dominants view.

Kajira Callista said:

I sit here and read over and over that abuse is acceptable if you are a slave. Its ok to hit in anger and a slave is inferior. I know this to not be true...none of it. How do i know? Because a slave is what i am, always have been ,and always will be. Sure there are differences in each relationship, but come on ppl, is it really worth damaging your head, heart and soul to hang on to a man who is nothing but abusive and using Ds and BDSM to disguise it?

Click to expand...

While I do not consider myself a slave, I do feel I must speak to this post.

You are caught up in YOUR OWN REALITY, and are not considering the reality and truth of what others live and breathe. I believe that just because you are a slave, and have lived slavery your way, does not make someone else's truth any less valid, nor right.

One person's "abuse" is another person's consensual nonconsensuality, and part and parcel of their no-limits TPE, and something you can never hope to completely understand, unless you are living it day to day. We can just try to embrace what they live and be open-minded enough not to call down the heavens upon them in the name of saving them from the devil of "abuse" and let them live their reality the way they and their Master choose to live it, if they aren't directly asking for our help.

I'm not speaking to newbies here. I'm speaking to well-established M/s relationships. The newbies are another issue entirely.

You also spoke of slaves being inferior and powerless. I wonder how many slaves WANT to be inferior and powerless. You may not prefer that particular dynamic, but I would bet that there are quite a few who prefer exactly that. Be careful about projecting your feelings on a whole group of people.

~anelize

Re: Re: Are slaves......

AnelizeDarkEyes said:

While I do not consider myself a slave, I do feel I must speak to this post.

You are caught up in YOUR OWN REALITY, and are not considering the reality and truth of what others live and breathe. I believe that just because you are a slave, and have lived slavery your way, does not make someone else's truth any less valid, nor right.

One person's "abuse" is another person's consensual nonconsensuality, and part and parcel of their no-limits TPE, and something you can never hope to completely understand, unless you are living it day to day. We can just try to embrace what they live and be open-minded enough not to call down the heavens upon them in the name of saving them from the devil of "abuse" and let them live their reality the way they and their Master choose to live it, if they aren't directly asking for our help.

I'm not speaking to newbies here. I'm speaking to well-established M/s relationships. The newbies are another issue entirely.

You also spoke of slaves being inferior and powerless. I wonder how many slaves WANT to be inferior and powerless. You may not prefer that particular dynamic, but I would bet that there are quite a few who prefer exactly that. Be careful about projecting your feelings on a whole group of people.

~anelize

Click to expand...

Thank you for your thoughts on this anelize. And yes all that was in my first post is how i see things, just wanting to see how others see things. (edited for clarity)

I believe there are ways to manage anger that don't involve hitting. I'm with Fransisco. Administering pain needs to be done with control. When you hit out of anger, you are out of control of your behavior. That's my opinion. I understand that others feel differently and since they're adults they're gonna do what they think is best for them. But in my world, it ain't ok.

If you were speaking to newbies anelize, what would you have to say to them when it came to this subject?

Just following the thread, not a slave (maybe some day) nor in a true D/s relationship, but we enjoy it very much. Just a question on lingo

TPE?

I enjoy how anelize has posted on this thread. Some make it seem so scary, and I'm sure aspects of it is. And one day my day will come and I'll be ready then, she softened it slightly and made it a "to each their own" type answer.

:: goes back to simply reading/enjoying the thread discussion ::

Desdemona said:

I believe there are ways to manage anger that don't involve hitting. I'm with Fransisco. Administering pain needs to be done with control. When you hit out of anger, you are out of control of your behavior. That's my opinion. I understand that others feel differently and since they're adults they're gonna do what they think is best for them. But in my world, it ain't ok.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your voice in this Des.

BlueSugar said:

Just following the thread, not a slave (maybe some day) nor in a true D/s relationship, but we enjoy it very much. Just a question on lingo

TPE?

I enjoy how anelize has posted on this thread. Some make it seem so scary, and I'm sure aspects of it is. And one day my day will come and I'll be ready then, she softened it slightly and made it a "to each their own" type answer.

:: goes back to simply reading/enjoying the thread discussion ::

Click to expand...

Total power exchange

In the End

I think what it all boils down to, is that in the end we are all responsible for our own behaviour. Dom Or Sub at the end of the day , we each have control over our own souls. I don't believe that is every taken or given away. Everyone must play the game that they need, want, crave. But we all have the ability to move on , run away; whatever. If we do not then we are in prison against all our will. This is quite simply illegal, and imoral, an un-healthy. Any Submissive that is in a relationship that is causing them pain that lasts for any length of time, mental or physical, that they do not want, is not living any kind of bdsm life-style. Bdsm is about mutual enrichment, satisfaction and enlightenment. If it feels right in your heart. If it feels wrong in your heart. Use your feet. Take a walk.

Kajira Callista said:

If you were speaking to newbies anelize, what would you have to say to them when it came to this subject?

Click to expand...

Look before you leap. So many of us DON'T. We rush in where angels fear to tread, riding the rush of that submissive frenzy, believing that we've got to have it ALL, be everything, do everything, have that slave collar, give the best, the most perfect and ultimate submission possible to our supposed One (who we may have just met). We are so blinded by everything he's telling us, everything we're reading, everything we're FEELING, it's filling us up inside and for many of us, there's that unmistakeable RIGHTNESS, the confirmation of knowing that you've felt this way your entire life....

We plunge headlong down the hill....and grab it alll...oooooh, slavery sounds real good we think, testing the word "Master" on our tongues.

I'd tell them to take a deep breath, find a quiet spot, and reassure them that, YES, they will get there. Eventually. To try and be patient even though every thing in them says otherwise. That being submissive is a continuum and a journey, as corny as that sounds. They'll miss the good parts if they jump off the cliff and get smashed on the rocks below.

*shrugs*

Some listen, some don't.

So You Want to Be a Slave

I'd steer them to this site. Best article I've ever read on the subject, because I don't think I'm all that knowledgable and eloquent.

~anelize

Kajira Callista said:

Total power exchange

Click to expand...

aaah. Thanks.

AnelizeDarkEyes said:

Look before you leap. So many of us DON'T. We rush in where angels fear to tread, riding the rush of that submissive frenzy, believing that we've got to have it ALL, be everything, do everything, have that slave collar, give the best, the most perfect and ultimate submission possible to our supposed One (who we may have just met). We are so blinded by everything he's telling us, everything we're reading, everything we're FEELING, it's filling us up inside and for many of us, there's that unmistakeable RIGHTNESS, the confirmation of knowing that you've felt this way your entire life....

We plunge headlong down the hill....and grab it alll...oooooh, slavery sounds real good we think, testing the word "Master" on our tongues.

I'd tell them to take a deep breath, find a quiet spot, and reassure them that, YES, they will get there. Eventually. To try and be patient even though every thing in them says otherwise. That being submissive is a continuum and a journey, as corny as that sounds. They'll miss the good parts if they jump off the cliff and get smashed on the rocks below.

*shrugs*

Some listen, some don't.

So You Want to Be a Slave

I'd steer them to this site. Best article I've ever read on the subject, because I don't think I'm all that knowledgable and eloquent.

~anelize

Click to expand...

You are quite knowledgeable and eloquent.

AnelizeDarkEyes said:

Look before you leap. So many of us DON'T. We rush in where angels fear to tread, riding the rush of that submissive frenzy, believing that we've got to have it ALL, be everything, do everything, have that slave collar, give the best, the most perfect and ultimate submission possible to our supposed One (who we may have just met). We are so blinded by everything he's telling us, everything we're reading, everything we're FEELING, it's filling us up inside and for many of us, there's that unmistakeable RIGHTNESS, the confirmation of knowing that you've felt this way your entire life....

We plunge headlong down the hill....and grab it alll...oooooh, slavery sounds real good we think, testing the word "Master" on our tongues.

I'd tell them to take a deep breath, find a quiet spot, and reassure them that, YES, they will get there. Eventually. To try and be patient even though every thing in them says otherwise. That being submissive is a continuum and a journey, as corny as that sounds. They'll miss the good parts if they jump off the cliff and get smashed on the rocks below.

*shrugs*

Some listen, some don't.

So You Want to Be a Slave

I'd steer them to this site. Best article I've ever read on the subject, because I don't think I'm all that knowledgable and eloquent.

~anelize

Click to expand...

I think you said it better then i ever managed to. thanks

Kajira Callista said:

Inferior and powerless? Are they supposed to accept physical and mental abuse from a Master? Is this what being a slave is?

I sit here and read over and over that abuse is acceptable if you are a slave. Its ok to hit in anger and a slave is inferior. I know this to not be true...none of it. How do i know? Because a slave is what i am, always have been ,and always will be. Sure there are differences in each relationship, but come on ppl, is it really worth damaging your head, heart and soul to hang on to a man who is nothing but abusive and using Ds and BDSM to disguise it?
Does anyone feel the same about this or not the same...i really would like some feedback about this. Just for a little added info on me, so i dont get told im a newbie and know nothing.In this lifestlye for a long long time. I was an owned slave for 6 yrs 24/7...out in the real world that is.Ive been owned by others, but with a contract for a certain amount of time. I have helped others learn, with their Masters approval also. I am a pain slut w/out any known limits, had more then one Dom/sub relationship in my lifetime and for the life of me can not understand why ppl are thinking this is a dark horrible place to be. Its supposed to make you feel good, and safe ,and where you belong. I just cant sit back and watch ppl damage themselves because they refuse to see. All of this is all my own opinion , just to make it clear that im not looking for posts that agree, just a little understanding of things here.

Click to expand...

I think I can sum this up in one short sentence: everyone is different.

Some submissives/slaves get off on feeling inferior, having no limits, being abused. Honest!

It's been a big learning curve for me learning to shut my mouth and not judge people who are in abusive relationships. All I can say is "not for me." I don't accept abuse -- either giving or receiving. So my personal viewpoint is diametrically opposed to some of those that are posted.

For me, a slave is not inferior -- that term is simply an acknowledgement of the type of relationship she prefers. Slavery isn't about abuse, it's about feeling owned. It's about control and power. However, I do think it is prone to abuse.

Thank you Fungiug Sir for your input. Im glad to see the Doms posting also, gives a more balanced feel to things.

Re: In the End

Mr-Ontario said:

I think what it all boils down to, is that in the end we are all responsible for our own behaviour. Dom Or Sub at the end of the day , we each have control over our own souls. I don't believe that is every taken or given away. Everyone must play the game that they need, want, crave. But we all have the ability to move on , run away; whatever. If we do not then we are in prison against all our will. This is quite simply illegal, and imoral, an un-healthy. Any Submissive that is in a relationship that is causing them pain that lasts for any length of time, mental or physical, that they do not want, is not living any kind of bdsm life-style. Bdsm is about mutual enrichment, satisfaction and enlightenment. If it feels right in your heart. If it feels wrong in your heart. Use your feet. Take a walk.

Click to expand...

Sorry i missed this one. Thank you Mr-Ontario, I feel the same about alot of what you said there, and im truly trying to understand the different relationships that i read about here, i dont want to judge, but i really do get a bad feeling about some of what i read sometimes. Im so glad you are all posting here and im loving reading the responses to this. Thanks

Re: Re: Are slaves......

AnelizeDarkEyes said:

While I do not consider myself a slave, I do feel I must speak to this post.

You are caught up in YOUR OWN REALITY, and are not considering the reality and truth of what others live and breathe. I believe that just because you are a slave, and have lived slavery your way, does not make someone else's truth any less valid, nor right.

One person's "abuse" is another person's consensual nonconsensuality, and part and parcel of their no-limits TPE, and something you can never hope to completely understand, unless you are living it day to day. We can just try to embrace what they live and be open-minded enough not to call down the heavens upon them in the name of saving them from the devil of "abuse" and let them live their reality the way they and their Master choose to live it, if they aren't directly asking for our help.

I'm not speaking to newbies here. I'm speaking to well-established M/s relationships. The newbies are another issue entirely.

You also spoke of slaves being inferior and powerless. I wonder how many slaves WANT to be inferior and powerless. You may not prefer that particular dynamic, but I would bet that there are quite a few who prefer exactly that. Be careful about projecting your feelings on a whole group of people.

~anelize

Click to expand...

i agree very much with the above words...i think all too often in this lifestyle, people place their own ideals, beliefs and values over everyone else within the lifestyle...which leads to making generalizations or harsh judgements, simply because it's not part of their own personal experience/reality...it's not how they were taught things are supposed to be, it's not how they feel things are supposed to be...therefore, it's bad/wrong and shouldn't be part of the lifestyle period. for this reason, i personally have actually found more tolerance and even understanding, among vanillas as opposed to other lifestylers.

yes, some submissives have a desire to be inferior to their mates, or simply inferior, period...as for slaves, it's my own personal (and unpopular) opinion that by the very definition of the term, one who is property doesn't have rights, which would include the right not to be harmed or abused. but i felt i should clarify something, as in recent threads i've been among the very few to not condemn a person to heck and back for hitting their mate in anger. that does not mean i think it's "okay" to be hit in anger, or that i think abuse is "okay". i just am not of the opinion that a Dominant is the devil incarnate because he has an angry moment and hits his submissive in the process. but i digress. the fact is there are some who do indeed have a need to be abused (and those who have a need to abuse), and it is not my place to say what is right and wrong for every M/s relationship.