old rules versus new rules

here's my short story.

i was recently dating my english professor. he, naturally, took the dominant role. one of the rules i was learning with him was not to cry. he saw it as a sign of weakness and lack of self control, and i simply wasn't allowed to.

now i'm seeing a new guy, which is loads of fun, but it's taking a little time to get my feet under me. he encourages me to cry, which, having lived the other way, i much prefer. but it's just a little strange learning contradicting rules.

i was just wondering if anybody else has had this problem. well, it's not really a problem, but....


ok ok, it's just been a while since i tried to contribute a decent thread and i figured it was time!

so anybody wanna talk about it?

Growing up my dad tried to "toughen" us up, tears were not allowed. Then I got married, and well, I couldn't show him that satisfaction of seeing me cry, and knowing that he upset me. Anyway, in my former D/s relationship my Dom wanted tears, he wanted emotion, he wanted me to open up and bare my soul to him. I just couldn't. Even during the most intense whippings I could not shed a tear. This is eventually what lead to the end of the relationship, or at least one of the reasons. He saw my inability to cry as a sign of holding back, and as he said, he wanted my "complete surrender." I tried to force it once, I had to think of something really terrible just to get a tear... it was bad. This was when I really started to evaluate myself, and I saw that I was holding all of my emotions hostage. No one has yet to see me cry, but I do hope to be able to share that part of myself in my next relationship, for as Shadowsdream said in a thread I read a while ago, tears are beautiful.

I know that some Doms don't want to see the tears, and some do, my feeling is that if I am to share ALL of myself, and feel safe and trusti, I need to hold nothing back, including my tears. I hope to be able to do that with the right one.

Great thread bunny!

Conflicting rules are reality when old BDSM relationships end and new ones begin. It can be difficult to shake off the old teachings if you still hold some of the old attachments no matter how minute.
....
Tears not allowed seems to be counterproductive to My way of thinking.
Tears encouraged to My way of thinking is productive...
Tears expected or demanded adds a pressure to perform emotionally.
It is not uncommon for submissives to have built up tears and internal pain that they have only touched on in communication. Tears that they may not even know they must release. Tears covered with a smile a joke and a stiff upper lip.
To be able to give your tears to your Dominant, IF that Dominant can handle the responsibilty and has the integrity to help you understand each tear drop, brings a moment of magic growth to both.

wow, Sd, you are unrecoverably philosophical! somebody should compile all of your posts and publish a book called "the magic of BDSM, as told by Shadowsdream"

bunny bondage said:

wow, Sd, you are unrecoverably philosophical! somebody should compile all of your posts and publish a book called "the magic of BDSM, as told by Shadowsdream"

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you are so sweet ~~grin~~
Don't you agree that the journey can be magic or myth?

Shadowsdream said:

you are so sweet ~~grin~~
Don't you agree that the journey can be magic or myth?

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i get the magic part, but how can it be myth?

One of the hardest things about going from one relationship to the next is all of the things you have learnt in the one relationship become preconceptions in the next. Sometimes they are shortcuts to getting a relationship up and running, but all too often they can be problems.

A classic is the "pattern of behaivour" abuse cycle thingie. (Just an example Bunny, not suggesting you are heading into that!!!)

Anyway, be prepared to throw out all of what happened in a prior relationship. Each person is different, and since a relationship is interaction between two or more unique individuals... you are going to have unique rules to match. Simple really, although very hard to put into practice.

Of course, in practice life isn't that drastic. There are many things that end up in common between relationships -- no surprise, since the common element will be you. But be prepared to "learn" your new partner -- assuming he is like a prior partner will cause issues.

In a way, it's kinda cool that you've run into something so dramatically different this early. Sort of reinforces the message that your new relationship is and will continue to be different!

Originally posted by Shadowsdream <SNIP>
It is not uncommon for submissives to have built up tears and internal pain that they have only touched on in communication. Tears that they may not even know they must release. Tears covered with a smile a joke and a stiff upper lip.
To be able to give your tears to your Dominant, IF that Dominant can handle the responsibilty and has the integrity to help you understand each tear drop, brings a moment of magic growth to both.

Click to expand...

This brought back a very special memory. Its a truly amazing experience to find that your Dominant knows you so well. Snooze knows when I need to cry and to release the pain, even when I don't.

I understand. I was with a Dom who wanted me to misbehave so he had a reason to punish me, so I got used to being a SAM (although I didn't like it). Now I've met a Dom who absolutely abhors SAM's and even though I didn't enjoy being one it's hard for me to break out of that.

I don't know whether any of y'all have ever been familiar with a game called Mao (sp?), but it's a card game where the players make up the rules as they go while the other players have to guess them in order not to break them.

Anyway, I was in a D/s relationship like this once. The rules got changed every so often for the purely sadistic pleasure of watching me try to figure them out. It drove me nuts! Like the one day when I woke up and I was no longer allowed to tie my own shoes. Very frustrating, and kinda fun.

Not a complete rule shift, such as would come with a new relationship, but the same idea as far as having to relearn things.

Hi, NemoAlia! *waves wildly*

Yeah, I've played Mao and occasionally live it. It's fun in that wacky unpredictable way but I can see how lots of people would react to being in that sort of relationship with horror.

Can't really say anything about rules changing between partners--this is the first really truly D/s relationship I've had. Previous one didn't make this enough of a priority/interest to set rules of any sort, except the sporadic "don't come" one.

On Mao

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_(game)

I personally want my subs to be themselves and that means getting past the roles that society and other have placed on them.

It is hard for men to cry under any circumstance, and if my sub cries I know he has laid bare all pretense, and is freed from the his mental restraints.

Tears are a good thing.

bunny bondage said:

i get the magic part, but how can it be myth?

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The journey can be *myth* if it doesn't follow its own path but tries to create a path from preconceptions.

It wasn't just crying that I had to learn to do. I used to squash all emotion. I came across as either really introverted or really cold, or both. As a child, I learned that emoting is useless. It does NOTHING to help a situation, and if the Sperm Donor saw any of us crying all it did was annoy him, which got us (his female off spring) banished to our rooms for a period of days. I don't know what happened to his male offspring, I wasn't important enough to find out. By the time I was 10, I showed nothing at all.

But things change, and we got out of there when I was a preteen. 20 years later, I'm finally learning to deal with emotions. This is one of the first signs that what I have with D is a good thing. One afternoon, I fell apart and cried all over him. My first response was to run away, because somewhere in the back of my head I knew he wouldn't want me around if I couldn't control my emotions. I was ashamed and afraid he would turn me away. This was a totally irrational fear, and my head knew that, but my heart was so scared.

I had a point here somewhere, let me go find it..

Ok, I found it. For some of us, being able to be emotional and learn to trust your Dominant to be careful for your emotions is a big part of submission. So yes, each relationship is defined by its own rules and such, and learning to trust your Dom/me and function within that relationship is one of the most scary/exciting things in a relationship.

I think this is an excellent thread and for me rather timely as I am developing a relationship with a sub who is recently out of a D/s thing. Her former Master and I seemingly could not be further apart on the way we view the treatment of a sub/slave, what should be expected of them, etc. I see in our daily interaction that she is sometimes unsure how to react or respond because she is experiencing things with me that she never has before. It amuses me at times and frustrates me at times but I understand the process. She is quickly learning what pleases me and all traces of her old Master's training are just as quickly disappearing.

All of this proof positive that every D/s relationship is different. I could go on forever about how and why I disagree with the previous Master but that is not the point of this thread.

As to the issue of tears, you have all made excellent points. Personally, I encourge a sub to reveal all of her emotions to me and I feel this way for several reasons.

If she can't let me see all of her emotions then yes, she is holding back a part of her submission. A very important part and if that's the case the situation has to be resolved or the relationship will surely deteriorate, as Angel described in her post.

Then there are situations like others have described where deep childhood emotional issues prevent someone from expressing sadness through tears. All the more reason for the Dom to create a safe environment for the sub to feel comfortable expressing emotion and to encourage them to do so. Over time the security the sub needs will be reinforced and I believe, the tears will come and the relationship moves into a deeper level.

I know there are some subs who are perfectly capable of tears but hold them back as an act of defiance. A mild form of topping from the bottom. But we all know there are ways to deal with that kind of problem. (smile)

Anyway, I say the Dom should encourage and expect to see a full range of emotion from their sub and deal with the emotions the way it works best for the two of them within their D/s relationship.

P.S. D's mariposa, that is damn sexiet AV I have seen on this board!

Shadowsdream said:

The journey can be *myth* if it doesn't follow its own path but tries to create a path from preconceptions.

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ah, thank you! ^_^

Lovely to see you too, Quint! Sometimes it seems like we're just signals crossing in cyberspace. Sigh...

I challenge the world to find me a person who could successfully insist that I not show my emotions! Oh wait, I'd actually rather not meet him.

bunny bondage said:

wow, Sd, you are unrecoverably philosophical! somebody should compile all of your posts and publish a book called "the magic of BDSM, as told by Shadowsdream"

Click to expand...

well said bunny,,, totally agree,,SD you are so inspiring, your words of wisdom should be published!!!!!!!!!!!

~*HuGs*~

New rules

This always happens when a new couple gets together, it should not be a surprise, all tops are not the same.

As for tears, I prefer my sub not worry about it and do what comes naturally. I enjoy seeming tears and to pretend indifference, but I don't need to. I've known people who repressed their emotions, that to me is not just unhealthy normally, but very possibly poisonous to a D/S couple because communication is so vitally important.

I was involved with a girl who came from an abusive household. I’d like to think that I helped her a lot, but I don’t know. I’m certainly not a professional shrink. We stayed friends afterward and she seemed to think I helped her. That was good to hear, but I don’t know I’d want to put myself through that again.

There’s a lot in BDSM that can get sick and warp a person’s soul, but there a lot outside of BDSM that can do it too.

il mio angelo said:

Growing up my dad tried to "toughen" us up, tears were not allowed. Then I got married, and well, I couldn't show him that satisfaction of seeing me cry, and knowing that he upset me. Anyway, in my former D/s relationship my Dom wanted tears, he wanted emotion, he wanted me to open up and bare my soul to him. I just couldn't. Even during the most intense whippings I could not shed a tear. This is eventually what lead to the end of the relationship, or at least one of the reasons. He saw my inability to cry as a sign of holding back, and as he said, he wanted my "complete surrender." I tried to force it once, I had to think of something really terrible just to get a tear... it was bad. This was when I really started to evaluate myself, and I saw that I was holding all of my emotions hostage. No one has yet to see me cry, but I do hope to be able to share that part of myself in my next relationship, for as Shadowsdream said in a thread I read a while ago, tears are beautiful.

I know that some Doms don't want to see the tears, and some do, my feeling is that if I am to share ALL of myself, and feel safe and trusti, I need to hold nothing back, including my tears. I hope to be able to do that with the right one.

Great thread bunny!

Click to expand...

It's not that easy though. The last time I cryed was when I had to carry the family dog to the vet. I carried her in as she was struck by a car that just kept going as I found that she had gotten out was in the road.They had to put her down and I wept. It was the stupidest dog in the world but we all loved her. Her name was Daisy and we got her from the pound. She bared her teeth and her paw would scratch you a little if she wanted attention and petting. She was actually smiling. She also never quite got the concept of paper or asking to go out to the bathroom. That was my when I was still a teen. Since then tears stopped I know it's the Southern conditioning. Sure my throat my get tight but no tears flow. When my mother was going through cancer treatments and we didn't know how it would turn out, I still couldn't let go though I choked up pretty bad I actually wanted to let go but couldn't. Some of us just can't turn our emotions on and off. I remember at my Grandmothers funeral I actually poked my eyes to make them water as I was ashamed for not crying. I loved her deeply but again no tears. I wouldn't ask a submissive to release all her emotions to prove herself to me. That can be a very dangerous experiment. You don't know whats locks up the pain so you would never know what harm you could do to her. That was just unresponsible and downright egotistical. If you are truly in love with someone you will give them time and understanding.

Shadowsdream said:

....
Tears not allowed seems to be counterproductive to My way of thinking.
Tears encouraged to My way of thinking is productive...
Tears expected or demanded adds a pressure to perform emotionally.
It is not uncommon for submissives to have built up tears and internal pain that they have only touched on in communication. Tears that they may not even know they must release. Tears covered with a smile a joke and a stiff upper lip.
To be able to give your tears to your Dominant, IF that Dominant can handle the responsibilty and has the integrity to help you understand each tear drop, brings a moment of magic growth to both.

Click to expand...

I LOVE this Sd. Very beautifully said, and I guess I found it very close to reality.

Growing up in my family, I was always told that I should be strong and shedding tears was just a sign of weakness. And when I had my boyfriends in vanilla relationships, they just didn't want to bother seeing my tears. Now that I'm with my Sir, I've learned it's okay to cry. It took a long time. I couldn't imagine why anyone would bother wanting to hear about my problems, and the things that's wrong with my life. And then through stressful times, I only knew how to push him away. But I guess thank goodness for me, he stood by my side, and taught me the gift of knowing that there's always someone out there you can lean on through good times and bad, and no matter what happens. I'm still learning, but at least now, I'm able to openly cry on his shoulders whenever I need to.

His Flower

CavaliereScuro said:

As to the issue of tears, you have all made excellent points. Personally, I encourge a sub to reveal all of her emotions to me and I feel this way for several reasons.

If she can't let me see all of her emotions then yes, she is holding back a part of her submission. A very important part and if that's the case the situation has to be resolved or the relationship will surely deteriorate, as Angel described in her post.

Then there are situations like others have described where deep childhood emotional issues prevent someone from expressing sadness through tears. All the more reason for the Dom to create a safe environment for the sub to feel comfortable expressing emotion and to encourage them to do so. Over time the security the sub needs will be reinforced and I believe, the tears will come and the relationship moves into a deeper level.

Anyway, I say the Dom should encourage and expect to see a full range of emotion from their sub and deal with the emotions the way it works best for the two of them within their D/s relationship.

P.S. D's mariposa, that is damn sexiet AV I have seen on this board!

Click to expand...

'Zactly! It wasn't an act of defiance that kept me from expressing tearful emotions, it was that I thought he would send me away. By the time this incident happened with us, he'd allready figured out that there was a large chunk of my past that I refused to talk about. He created an environment where it started to be safe for me to express this. It's kind of like this relationship totally breaks all the rules of any relationship I've ever had, and it's been very hard to adjust in some things. But it gets easier.

And thanks for the compliment! I found it on a link from Miss T's Av Shoppe thread!

snoozebutton said:

It's not that easy though. The last time I cryed was when I had to carry the family dog to the vet. I carried her in as she was struck by a car that just kept going as I found that she had gotten out was in the road.They had to put her down and I wept. It was the stupidest dog in the world but we all loved her. Her name was Daisy and we got her from the pound. She bared her teeth and her paw would scratch you a little if she wanted attention and petting. She was actually smiling. She also never quite got the concept of paper or asking to go out to the bathroom. That was my when I was still a teen. Since then tears stopped I know it's the Southern conditioning. Sure my throat my get tight but no tears flow. When my mother was going through cancer treatments and we didn't know how it would turn out, I still couldn't let go though I choked up pretty bad I actually wanted to let go but couldn't. Some of us just can't turn our emotions on and off. I remember at my Grandmothers funeral I actually poked my eyes to make them water as I was ashamed for not crying. I loved her deeply but again no tears. I wouldn't ask a submissive to release all her emotions to prove herself to me. That can be a very dangerous experiment. You don't know whats locks up the pain so you would never know what harm you could do to her. That was just unresponsible and downright egotistical. If you are truly in love with someone you will give them time and understanding.

Click to expand...

Thank you Snooze ... this one hit home, but for different reasons.

Pardon me, the rest of you, for quoting the entire thing, but i found it touching beyond measure.

i can't decide if it's the part about the pet, the parent/grandparent, or the "pet." i've been hammered by them all within the last two years. i find myself surprised on other occasions like a good story that touches the heart.

Don't get me wrong. i understand the hiccup with the release of the tears, that "lock" has stuck for me on occasion as well. When the lock sticks, for you, or your partner, think Fuel Air Explosive. The "eventual" release can be just as destructive if not channeled correctly, but then again, the theme of control covers this part of the board, if i'm not mistaken.

Thanks again Snooze. i mean it.

unfortunately i can relate. my childhood abuser conditioned me the way he wanted....seemingly cold and unresponsive (because as he continuously said, what i feel does not matter)...which means that during sex i have a tendency to be deathly silent as well as expressionless...no moaning and groaning, no smiling, and almost no orgasming either, the few times i do orgasm, i subconciously stifle it so much that to this day absolutely no one has been able to tell with certainty when i have orgasmed and when i have not. this aspect of my sexuality has been a turn on to many men...but for a few it was very disturbing. one man in particular said my stillness and silent obedience made him feel like he was raping me. but what could i do? it's who i am now. fortunately, my Master doesn't wish to turn me into a whole new person and completely reverse this...but he does wish me to at least be able to express my sexual pleasure in our personal sexual activities. and with him, i have definitely opened up a bit more...i make sounds (very quiet sounds, but sounds nonetheless)...i move my body a bit, i tell him with my eyes the pleasure i'm feeling. He has also taught me to verbally express gratitude during sex...for me, saying "thank you Daddy", or "thank you Sir", is much easier than writhing in passion and saying "oh yeahhhhh baby" or whatever it is people say, lol.

so, we are working on it a bit, but i think sometimes things can't be reversed. especially if it's something you were conditioned to be during childhood, i think that conforming to an entirely new way would be extremely difficult if not impossible for most people.