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C is for Consensual...that's good enough for me

Q

Quint

Literotica Guru
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
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2,793
I said:
I don't know where to draw the line between coaxing and forcing. A good friend of mine was coaxed into getting fucked. In my mind it was rape. This isn't something I can get into here because it's so largely individual. I'd have never tolerated anything like what you described, Artful. My mileage varies. But the bottom line is that there has to be consent. How that is obtained may be room for another thread (in fact, I do believe I'll start one!) but it has to be given or it's not there and it's rape. Finis.
Click to expand...

This was dragged from the thread http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100040&pagenumber=3

So how far do you push your sub to grow? To change her hard limits into soft limits, and from there put them into practice without a second thought? Where does "Consensual" turn into "You agreed to be mine, so you can do this or leave"? Do you see anything wrong with that last statement, and how do you think that's affected by the permanence of your relationship? For example, if you're nauseated, is it because you're with somebody you want to spend the rest of your life with and can't imagine saying something like that? If you shrug and say "Well, that's how it is," is it because you're in a more temporary relationship?

In other words, how far do/could/would you push your sub (or be pushed by your Dom/me) to get their consent?

Alright! Let's have it out!
 
I can only add questions that may or may not be answered.

A simple matter of consent:

Take spanking for instance. The Dom/sub have agreed on safe words, and a method of bondage that
suits them both. Their agreement also states that
after the spanking, the sub will perform oral sex for the Dom.

The sub has informed the Dom, though she has had considerable experience, she would like for him to WHACK her ass just ONE time, so she could get SOME idea of his POWER,...and the level of sensation that she perceives.

Having done this, she states afterwards, "Wonderful,...give me twenty more!" Which he does. On the last WHACK,...the sub achieves orgasm.

Upon releasing the sub, she tells the Dom she is NOT gonna perform oral sex for him.(She changed her mind)

Now we ALL know WHAT we THINK the Dom SHOULD do.

Right ?

I am posing the question,...so I get to answer LAST,...What do you THINK Quint? All ?
 
I think the sub has acted in bad faith and the Dom is well within his rights to dismiss her and have nothing more to do with her. However, I do not believe that her earlier promise to engage in oral sex gives him the right to coerce it upon her at that later stage.
In any situation, d/s or vanilla, this is the case. If I told a date that I planned to have sex with him at the end of the evening, and I later changed my mind, it would clearly be rape if he were to force sex upon me because he felt he had a right to collect on the earlier promise. I don't believe a d/s construct to the relationship changes that.
 
I agree 100%.

CarolineOh said:
I think the sub has acted in bad faith and the Dom is well within his rights to dismiss her and have nothing more to do with her. However, I do not believe that her earlier promise to engage in oral sex gives him the right to coerce it upon her at that later stage.
In any situation, d/s or vanilla, this is the case. If I told a date that I planned to have sex with him at the end of the evening, and I later changed my mind, it would clearly be rape if he were to force sex upon me because he felt he had a right to collect on the earlier promise. I don't believe a d/s construct to the relationship changes that.
Click to expand...
 
Quint said:
I said:


This was dragged from the thread http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100040&pagenumber=3

So how far do you push your sub to grow? To change her hard limits into soft limits, and from there put them into practice without a second thought? Where does "Consensual" turn into "You agreed to be mine, so you can do this or leave"? Do you see anything wrong with that last statement, and how do you think that's affected by the permanence of your relationship? For example, if you're nauseated, is it because you're with somebody you want to spend the rest of your life with and can't imagine saying something like that? If you shrug and say "Well, that's how it is," is it because you're in a more temporary relationship?

In other words, how far do/could/would you push your sub (or be pushed by your Dom/me) to get their consent?

Alright! Let's have it out!
Click to expand...

These questions could be discussed from different perspectives. For example, this question:

So how far do you push your sub to grow?

would be answered differently depending on whether your relationship is more strongly based on d/s, s/m, or b/d.

From my perspective as a dominant (as opposed to being a top or a sadist), growth is a matter of emotional maturity, self-control, discipline, training, and self-esteem. Therefore, pushing my submissive toward growth is a matter of teaching/requiring/encouraging self-discipline and requiring an active move in that direction.

From a top or sadist's point on view, growth would (perhaps) be expanding physical/sexual limits, i.e. taking more strokes from a flogger or accepting a larger ball gag or more restrictive bondage. So, pushing a submissive to grow in these circumstances would be a matter of physical training, and slowly increasing the stimulation as she built up a tolerance (if she has built a tolerance and has not reached her limit already).

Where does "Consensual" turn into *"You agreed to be mine, so you can do this or leave"?

This question can be viewed differently depending on whether your relationship is one based on "play" or one based on establishing a commitment.

However, in either case this limit should have been discussed before entering into a situation where one partner feels the need to say, "do this or leave." If this sentiment is expressed during negotiation, then you have found out her/his requirements in time and can "leave" gracefully, knowing that this partner was not for you (if this is a hard limit for you).

*btw this is an awfully rude way of expressing one's requirements, and sounds as though this person wouldn't care if her/his sub/dom/me left.

Do you see anything wrong with that last statement, and how do you think that's affected by the permanence of your relationship?

So in this case, I do believe it may, very well, have something to do with the permanence or expectation of permanence in a relationship. Once we are in a committed relationship or working towards one, an issue in one area of a couple's life will surely not cause them to split. Before making a commitment, I would hope that each person has worked out the requirements and hard limits of the other and found that they make a good fit. Isn't this what negotiation/training period/dating is all about!
 
Re: I can only add questions that may or may not be answered.

artful said:
A simple matter of consent:

Take spanking for instance. The Dom/sub have agreed on safe words, and a method of bondage that
suits them both. Their agreement also states that
after the spanking, the sub will perform oral sex for the Dom.

The sub has informed the Dom, though she has had considerable experience, she would like for him to WHACK her ass just ONE time, so she could get SOME idea of his POWER,...and the level of sensation that she perceives.

Having done this, she states afterwards, "Wonderful,...give me twenty more!" Which he does. On the last WHACK,...the sub achieves orgasm.

Upon releasing the sub, she tells the Dom she is NOT gonna perform oral sex for him.(She changed her mind)

Now we ALL know WHAT we THINK the Dom SHOULD do.

Right ?

I am posing the question,...so I get to answer LAST,...What do you THINK Quint? All ?
Click to expand...

I am assuming this is an example of (or an actual) situation and the question is what would you do...did I get the correctly?

In this situation, my first thought is that these two people either didn't know one another well enough to trust each other, in which case they shouldn't have been playing - or - the submissive is not interested in any kind of relationship except one in which she gets what she wants, and doesn't care if her bad behavior prevents this dom/me from playing with her again.

What I would do in this situation is refuse to play with this submissive again, and if asked for a reference for her, explain what she did.

I would not, under any circumstances, force oral sex from her. This is rape. Nor would I attempt to coerce her into following through on the agreement she made. Not being a sadist, I have no interest in sex my submissive does not want to give freely.

Now we ALL know WHAT we THINK the Dom SHOULD do.

~is curious about what it is you think we would ALL tell the dom to do~
 
Last edited:
Perhaps she's acting up to get an even more severe spanking? I'd politely show her to the door. If it was a head game, I guess I'd find out by her reaction. If not, then good riddance.

If she begged forgiveness, perhaps I'd take the blow job and then punish her in a way she wouldn't enjoy. If I felt she was worth the trouble.
 
WriterDom said:
Perhaps she's acting up to get an even more severe spanking? I'd politely show her to the door. If it was a head game, I guess I'd find out by her reaction. If not, then good riddance.

If she begged forgiveness, perhaps I'd take the blow job and then punish her in a way she wouldn't enjoy. If I felt she was worth the trouble.
Click to expand...

Problem is if you are wrong you could be in deep shit.
Too bad JB isnt around, he has a great riff on this issue that I will try to rememebr right, but basically what he says is that consent has to be renewed over and over, it doesnt just exist. Like, if you spank someone, every time you go to whack them, and they dont safeword, thats consent all over again.
I hate to put words in someones mouth and get it wrong, but thats the overall idea. So because someone says something like "you can whip me anytime" that doesnt take away that they can say no sometimes.
 
A person can withdraw consent at any time for any reason.
 
That's kind of fucked up scenario to me because I generally know the person I'm going to play with pretty well. And when I said I'd punish her, I didn't mean physically. But it's always good to examine the "what ifs"

For a long time I did vertical bondage without panic snaps. The thought never entered my mind that she might pass out. But shit happens.
 
Well,

I can honestly say I cannot relate to this. but I am not a sub, nor am I a Dom. I do not play games with my male subs. I tell them up front what the rules are, they either accept or they don't.

I have long term relationships, mostly, so that is usually enough to keep the smartasses away.

Ebony
 
Quint said:
I said:


This was dragged from the thread http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100040&pagenumber=3

So how far do you push your sub to grow? To change her hard limits into soft limits, and from there put them into practice without a second thought? Where does "Consensual" turn into "You agreed to be mine, so you can do this or leave"? Do you see anything wrong with that last statement, and how do you think that's affected by the permanence of your relationship? For example, if you're nauseated, is it because you're with somebody you want to spend the rest of your life with and can't imagine saying something like that? If you shrug and say "Well, that's how it is," is it because you're in a more temporary relationship?

In other words, how far do/could/would you push your sub (or be pushed by your Dom/me) to get their consent?

Alright! Let's have it out!
Click to expand...

There is a huge difference between pushing a limit and ignoring it. Artful's example in that thread was in my mind completely ignoring the limit and coercive. If the consent is coerced, it's not consent.

The point that "you agreed to be mine, so you can do this or leave" is the point that i'm gone. That statement is completely arrogant, condescending and shows a total lack of respect for the sub. It is the lowest form of emotional blackmail and disregard for the mental and emotional health of the sub.
 
Re: I can only add questions that may or may not be answered.

artful said:
A simple matter of consent:

Take spanking for instance. The Dom/sub have agreed on safe words, and a method of bondage that
suits them both. Their agreement also states that
after the spanking, the sub will perform oral sex for the Dom.

The sub has informed the Dom, though she has had considerable experience, she would like for him to WHACK her ass just ONE time, so she could get SOME idea of his POWER,...and the level of sensation that she perceives.

Having done this, she states afterwards, "Wonderful,...give me twenty more!" Which he does. On the last WHACK,...the sub achieves orgasm.

Upon releasing the sub, she tells the Dom she is NOT gonna perform oral sex for him.(She changed her mind)

Now we ALL know WHAT we THINK the Dom SHOULD do.

Right ?

I am posing the question,...so I get to answer LAST,...What do you THINK Quint? All ?
Click to expand...

He broke the original agreement. She asked him to, but he broke the agreement. In my books, they're both equally to blame for the resulting complete lack of trust.
 
Re: Re: I can only add questions that may or may not be answered.

morninggirl5 said:


He broke the original agreement. She asked him to, but he broke the agreement. In my books, they're both equally to blame for the resulting complete lack of trust.
Click to expand...

Sorry,...I was gonna wait till the thread had lost interest, but I just couldn't wait to respond.

The scenario was an EXAMPLE only. I agree with Sandia's post of:
"A person can withdraw consent at any time for any reason."

mg,..Why do you feel the Dom broke his agreement ?
 
Re: I can only add questions that may or may not be answered.

artful said:
A simple matter of consent:

Take spanking for instance. The Dom/sub have agreed on safe words, and a method of bondage that
suits them both. Their agreement also states that
after the spanking, the sub will perform oral sex for the Dom.

The sub has informed the Dom, though she has had considerable experience, she would like for him to WHACK her ass just ONE time, so she could get SOME idea of his POWER,...and the level of sensation that she perceives.

Having done this, she states afterwards, "Wonderful,...give me twenty more!" Which he does.
Click to expand...


There you go. It was discussed before hand and agreed to, one whack.

You set this scenario up as a first play situation (at least that was my impression). Changing anything mid-scene to me would cause a question of trust. As i said before, they both violated it and the blame is shared equally.
 
Re: Re: I can only add questions that may or may not be answered.

morninggirl5 said:



There you go. It was discussed before hand and agreed to, one whack.

You set this scenario up as a first play situation (at least that was my impression). Changing anything mid-scene to me would cause a question of trust. As i said before, they both violated it and the blame is shared equally.
Click to expand...

I see where I made a mistake in presenting the scenario. What I meant was,...the FIRST whack was to TEST the severity of the blows she might expect to receive. After the TEST whack,...then she requested 20 more of the same, which he fulfilled her request for 20 more of the same severity.

I apologise for not making that understood by all.
 
Like Ebonyfire, when we play with someone new, we explain the rules and either they can play by them, or we don't play. If a bottom pulled a stunt like that in a "play" situation, we would not play with her again.

In my relationship with my master/husband, it's both more complicated and simpler. I gave my consent when I entered into the relationship, and that pretty much covered agreeing to do what he wants. So, we would never actually negotiate for a blowjob in the first place. But, if he wanted it, I would need a really good reason why I could not cooperate. If he believed the reason, he'd back off and deal with whatever was causing the problem. If he didn't believe it, or felt it was not a valid reason, then he would proceed. I would not consider that rape, but obviously some people would.

Here's the complicated part - I technically can withdraw consent at any time by leaving the relationship; we love each other, and I might be able to withdraw consent by having a conversation along the lines of "I can't be with you in a power exchange relationship anymore - we need to go vanilla." But in the day-to-day course of our lives, I would not withdraw the consent, and it's part of the dynamic that I expect him not to allow me to do so.

It's not easy being my dominant - I expect him to know me well enough to know when no means "okay, but you may need to force the issue" and to act accordingly.

K
 
I'm still not feeling great so am not commenting on this at the moment, but thought it was worth bringing back for those, such as ourselves, who missed it the previous time around for one reason or another. Is always a topical issue which benefits through open discussion. I also have friends new to BDSM who have been taken advantage of through playing on their inexperience in terms of what constitutes consensual and what is not acceptable.

Catalina
 
well, as my Master's slave, for me my final consent was made when i agreed to be his property. i have no hard limits, no soft limits, no limits period, of my own. He may make limits for me for certain people or situations, but those can change in the blink of an eye. there is nothing that is a set in stone "no chance of this happening ever". this is something i understood would be the case before becoming his slave, and something i agreed with and accepted. so, i gave my consent 3 years ago. consent is now a moot point.
 
ownedsubgal said:
well, as my Master's slave, for me my final consent was made when i agreed to be his property. i have no hard limits, no soft limits, no limits period, of my own. He may make limits for me for certain people or situations, but those can change in the blink of an eye. there is nothing that is a set in stone "no chance of this happening ever". this is something i understood would be the case before becoming his slave, and something i agreed with and accepted. so, i gave my consent 3 years ago. consent is now a moot point.
Click to expand...
You say there is nothing that is set in stone as totally impossible. This is a common question - what about your own death? I'm not suggesting your Master would want that to happen, but what if he went literally insane?
 
The initial post by Artful (on the linked thread) that sparked this thread is a pretty disturbing one in my own mind, although I can see ownedsubgal's point about consent being irrelevant after the initial giving of it ("blanket consent").

What I see in Artful's example of a submissive being told by her dominant either to do this thing which is extremely unpleasant for her (for unspecified reasons, which complicates the interpretation) or leave, is that it feels very much like emotional blackmail in a relationship. "If you don't do this for me, then you don't love me." I understand that the very concept of submission involves doing things that may be hard, unwanted, even hated--but to be told "do this or get out" is, I feel, unduly harsh for any relationship that intends to last*. I can accept "do this or get punished." But I think the punishment far, far exceeds the crime in his example and that's what bothered me so much. There was no attempt at understanding or reconciling their different POVs. I'd have left that relationship when he offered the option.

As far as the question I asked at the end of my first post on this thread, how far am I comfortable being pushed to accept new things? There's a mess of threads on limit-pushing, but what I read there says pretty unanimously that it's a delicate procedure. You could push in the middle of play when the submissive is so far gone that she has the courage (or simply doesn't have the inhibition or weakness) to take that which she thought she couldn't before. Or gradually work her into it. But I never read in that thread the option of "do it or leave." For good reason.

(And may I say how bizarre it is to read myself-of-a-year-ago?)

*This is assuming the command is something routine or inconsequential, because I can imagine commands that go to the very heart of the relationship that, if disobeyed, would indicate serious problems and perhaps precipitate the end of the relationship. Ye gods, I'm reading far too much Pure. It's the difference between "let me flog you or get out" (inconsequential) and "respect my authority or get out" (more significant and perhaps understandable).
 
IMO there are two different scenarios.

1) Temporary relationship, a scene involving two or more consenting adults. The involved parties have made a clear agreement before starting to 'play'.

In here there is no blank consent possible; the power lies ultimately with the submissive. If an agreement has been made beforehand and the sub withdraws from it, the sub is acting completely between her rights. Normally a safe word or a combination of safe words will be agreed upon; as long as the safe word is not used the sub has not withdrawn consent. What happens during the scene is the responsibility of the involved Dominant. The sub is completely acting within her rights, if she tries the patience and strength of a dominant by trying to change the setting to her own specific taste. The Dominant can choose to withdraw from the scene or punish the sub for behaviour as long as the sub does not withdraw consent.

2) Long term relation, in here the involved consenting adults have a more permanent character.

This one is very hard to answer since there are no set guidelines for a relationship, certainly not in BDSM. It is what the consenting adults make of it. If we look at the blank consent relationship ownedsubgal describes it comes very close to the relationship Catalina and I have. Between me and Catalina there is one agreement. I have a blank consent to do whatever I want and I will not withdraw under any circumstances from the relationship and she will not withdraw either.

Having said that in the given example I find the idea of do what I tell you or fuck off going pretty far. Quint said it very eloquently "let me flog you or get out" (inconsequential) and "respect my authority or get out" (more significant and perhaps understandable).”

Francisco.
 
Francisco, you are always extremely gracious and intelligent in your posts; thank you. A year ago, when starting this post, I was more close-minded than I am now about fuzzy lines that come up in different relationships. I reacted in horror and disgust because I had not had any experience with blanket consent-style relationships and could not conceive of them being healthy. I still have difficulty with the concept. I still blink when considering slaves. But I have since realized that this is a fault on my part; I have trust issues and so understanding a person who trusts another so completely that they give up their rights to say "no" is a completely foreign concept to my mind.

I do agree that although it would be discourteous for a knowingly-temporary Dominant to so curtly dismiss his submissive (ooh, say THAT five times!), it would not carry the same level of offensiveness.
 
Etoile said:
You say there is nothing that is set in stone as totally impossible. This is a common question - what about your own death? I'm not suggesting your Master would want that to happen, but what if he went literally insane?
Click to expand...
 
Etoile said:
You say there is nothing that is set in stone as totally impossible. This is a common question - what about your own death? I'm not suggesting your Master would want that to happen, but what if he went literally insane?
Click to expand...


you are really asking two different questions. is my life my Master's, to take as he wills, and what would happen if my Master actually went insane. the answer to the first question is yes, of course. i am a slave...there aren't any exceptions/ifs/buts/maybes to that. i am property, just like his homes, his vehicles, his chessboard. and just as he can destroy any of the above if he so chooses, he can destroy me.

now as to the other question...if he actually went insane, and were no longer able to make wise decisions, think rationally, etc....then i would ask him for release. but all i may do is ask. if he refuses to release me, i stay without question.
 
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