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Old 02-27-2014, 06:52 PM   #76
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So, tell us again that you aren't mocking the literary style, LC.

(And you should be one of the last to talk about the misuse of punctuation.)
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:59 PM   #77
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Aye, but that's where the "literary" meaning comes in. The "fun sexy stories" you're talking about... I consider them literary. No matter how simple or complex, no matter if they carry as much weight as the divine comedy.

I like all of the elements I listed earlier, but that doesn't necessarily mean I consider a story not literary if it doesn't contain one or more of the elements. They don't even have to use them to extreme degrees.

A fun little romp with a night on the town ending in crazy sex could be literary for me.

I don't think it's what is written as much as how it's written. How it's presented. Big words small words themes whatever....

If I read a story that I really didn't like because the characters behaved unrealistically and the sex wasn't hot, I'd still consider it literary. In my book. Because they made the attempt to put it together, they aimed for those things but didn't quite hit.

But now, say I came across a story that used a lot of "text" speech. Lotta LOLS and random slang. No real attempt to tell a good story. The equivalent of

"We was all out on the lake and let me tell you how I fucked this one girl. She was reel reel hot and I told her we should go somewhere be all alone an stuff. She was blonde and jus starts suck in me off next to this tree.

I tell her bend over and she pulled down pants and we was fucking and my buddy saw us and he took a picture and put it on facebooks and I got this chicks number. But her sister walked out first and took out her bikini. Her tits was huge...."

Okay so maybe that's the worst story ever and a bit of an extreme example.

But I have seen this very type of story before on Lit. It's a mess. Is it a story? Well yes of course. Are they free to submit it here? Why yeah, there's no quality requirements other than making it past Laurel's skim job. Will people read it and like it? Yes, there's an audience for anything, and some people like to read little quick snippets about someone's encounters, whether or not its "literary" and to whom it is "literary." That's the freedom of Lit.

But do I consider that literary? No. It makes my head hurt just to read. It looks like a long chatroom post. And for me it isn't entertaining. For many it's not entertaining. I think these are the stories OP was talking about. (Extreme example I know, but of that ilk.) To me that's understandable, from both sides of the fence.

In the end, I look at the stories on Lit as like browsing CDs or something. (Or iTunes or whatever). Everyone's gonna pick the one that suits them best, regardless of all the "crap" they consider to be on the stand around it.
I agree- oh, wait, sorry I want to sound real smart here, I concur! with much of what you say.

But the tone in which the thread was started and others followed is one of "literary" as in being above the mere mortals here struggling to eek out words that have more than two syllables and the readership that claps their hands and says "yay, boobies!"

Literary can be as simple as a well written entertaining tales that does the trick.

But what's being pawned off as literary here is along the lines of being pompous and more than a little full of themselves.

To pretty much say the readership is uneducated and stupid goes beyond the discussion of the quality of writing.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:54 PM   #78
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Oh. I didn't really take it to be like that, but I can see that point as well.

I just kinda thought they were talking about like the BAD bad stuff. I mean at some point it has to be realistic to notice the artist is just drawing stick figures with boobs on them. No offense meant.

(Folds up stick figure drawings and slinks away.)
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Old 02-28-2014, 06:04 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
I agree- oh, wait, sorry I want to sound real smart here, I concur! with much of what you say.

But the tone in which the thread was started and others followed is one of "literary" as in being above the mere mortals here struggling to eek out words that have more than two syllables and the readership that claps their hands and says "yay, boobies!"

Literary can be as simple as a well written entertaining tales that does the trick.

But what's being pawned off as literary here is along the lines of being pompous and more than a little full of themselves.

To pretty much say the readership is uneducated and stupid goes beyond the discussion of the quality of writing.
I remember studying the early 20th Century (pre-1914) debate in Australia about what is "literary" and what is not.

The works of Banjo Patterson and C J Dennis were then considered not "literary". They are now much loved Australian Classics.

There were two literary societies, one in Melbourne, the other in Sydney. Apart from hating each other with virulence, they both decreed that European, by which they generally meant English, Literature was far more "literary" than anything produced in Australia - except the works by their members, of course! Those works are generally forgotten as weak pastiches of 19th Century English novelists.

Their idea of "literary" was based on polysyllabic words, long passages of description, and evidence of erudition by quoting the Classics of Latin and Greek literature. As for anything Australian? Horror!

Later incarnations of the Australian Literary Establishment attached Arthur Upfield for his detective stories featuring the half-Aborigine detective Napoleon Bonaparte, known as Bony (or Boney). To the Establishment's horror each one of Upfield's novels sold in tens of thousands to their few hundreds. They became even more incensed when a Sydney journalist (John O'Grady) sold hundreds of thousands of books under the name 'Nino Culotta'.

'Literary' as the exclusive possession of the few initiates is an old fallacy. It usually means a clique deciding that they, and only they, know what 'literary' is.

Meanwhile other authors sell many more books with no claim to be 'literary', books that one day might be considered classics of literature.

It is still true today. Some of the prestige prizes for writing novels are considered for books that many people just won't read, or find indigestible.

Sir Walter Scott, Charles Dickens, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, H G Wells, Rudyard Kipling, didn't try to write 'literary' works. They wrote books to make a living.
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Old 02-28-2014, 08:59 AM   #80
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Good thread. Lots of good points being made.

Fuck the arguments.

A lot of good writers around the place here too. No doubt about it.

I'd like to see what the range of views would be on this comparison of modern entertainment:

how about checking these two things out on YouTube and giving your views on which of the two are high quality musical art:

1. Igor Presnyakov - Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites; or

2. Skrillex - Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites

??

Same issue as between this place being the modern version of Pulp Fiction (which it certainly is) or whether it could contain any serious literary work.
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:09 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by oggbashan View Post
Sir Walter Scott, Charles Dickens, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, H G Wells, Rudyard Kipling, didn't try to write 'literary' works. They wrote books to make a living.
"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money."
--Samuel Johnson

I guess we have many fools here.
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Old 02-28-2014, 04:14 PM   #82
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Look, Literotica is not the first place anyone would look to find scintillating writing, granted. We can surely all agree on that.

Nevertheless, in the first place it is surely at least possible to strive for quality in any genre. Secondly, the OP is entitled to make his personal observation that whatever 'standards' there used to be hereabouts are on the way down.

I would be in no position to conduct any kind of survey, but if he is right then all I can say is that this fits only too well with my own experience.

I define 'literature' as the art - or even 'joy' - of using the written language in an aesthetically satisfying way so as to entertain. This art, very sadly, is slowly but surely becoming lost in a sea of ignorance and utilitarianism.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:04 AM   #83
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A friend of mine, an old-school Eng Lit professor, reckons that there are several categories of writers who can be considered worthy of respect.

There are those who aspire to be widely read. In order to achieve their aspiration, they need to be, first and foremost, accessible. They need to be clear in their thoughts and simple in their use of the language. Neither of these objectives is easily achieved. If it requires a college education to understand what these writers have written, they have failed.

There are those who aspire to entertain. These are writers who use language in a way similar to the way in which musicians use sounds. Because their audience usually requires a trained – or instinctive – ‘ear’ to appreciate their writing, they will inevitably appeal to a somewhat smaller readership. That’s life.

And there are those who aspire to educate and inspire. These writers too must be clear in their thinking and concise in the communication. The writers who aspire to educate and inspire the masses must ‘keep it simple’ in all respects. The writers who aspire to educate and inspire their peers must, sometimes unfortunately, work within the language conventions of their peers.

In their own way, each of these ‘streams’ has a right to be considered literary. But what is all too often considered to be literary is simply pretentious waffle.

I’m inclined to agree with him.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:09 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by SamScribble View Post
In their own way, each of these ‘streams’ has a right to be considered literary. But what is all too often considered to be literary is simply pretentious waffle.
This, I think. When writing is pretentious waffle, I think it's because someone who can't really manage the assignment has intentionally tried to write something they consider is literary style--but usually not understanding or appreciating it any more than some of the mockers of literary work here on this thread.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:36 AM   #85
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I think quite a lot of the text in this thread is a bit misleading.

Trying to define what is literary or not is missing the point of what the OP was trying to say I think.

I think the point he's making is that quite a lot of people posting here are very inexperienced, and quite often don't have a point to make with a story, and for those looking for more depth in story telling, quite a lot of what Lit has to offer is not going to offer a lot to bite into.

Now people do get better, but there's definitely some innate sense of what a story needs, dialog, pacing, flow and so on that some people get and others do not.

There are quite a lot of authors here with a long list of stories posted, and they've not gotten that significantly better over time. They have their style and they stick to it, and they aren't evolving very much.

A writer writes. And in doing so, evolves and gets better. Well, that's true, but it for some it means they stop making mistakes with comma's and where quotes go and syntactical stuff like that. It doesn't mean their stories get any better.

And to be clear, this is not just a Lit problem - professionals have this problem too. Dan Brown, for example, is just as shit a writer now as he was when he started. It's just that because Lit has no publishing filters or barriers, the issue is that much more apparent here, since the difference between a writer with talent who's thought about what they are writing and learned some lessons is so much greater than someone who's just decided to write something for the sake of it.

But having said all that, we all have to start somewhere. While not everyone is going to get significantly better by churning it out, those who would get better will not do it without writing and publishing and being critiqued.

The fact is, in order to have free progression of writing and genuinely no barrier to anyone contributing, you, by definition, have to accept the large amounts of dross you are going to get along with the gems. That's the nature of a free market.

Insisting on standards - however much I'd like to see some too - just means someone has to define what those standards are, some one has to apply them, and someone has to fight about it on forums like this. I don't think Laural or Manu signed up for that.

I think Lit is what it is. Like it or lump it.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:43 AM   #86
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Four Lit. forum pages into a thread, you expect it to still be responding to the OP's points? You really must be new to the forum.
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Old 03-01-2014, 01:49 AM   #87
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Four Lit. forum pages into a thread, you expect it to still be responding to the OP's points? You really must be new to the forum.
Ha ha ha.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:15 AM   #88
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The ability to write is important - and it is reasonable to say, in the case of producing a work of fiction for the purpose of entertainment, that this ability should have more to it than the utter basics needed for simple communication.

We are not talking about scribbling a shopping list..!

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Old 03-01-2014, 05:31 AM   #89
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The ability to write is important - and it is reasonable to say, in the case of producing a work of fiction for the purpose of entertainment, that this ability should have more to it than the utter basics needed for simple communication.

We are not talking about scribbling a shopping ist...
In the case of the majority of the works here, we are.
However the OP is wrong in thinking it is a new thing.
Most of the stories have always been "Got cock, found hole, pushed, squirted, made happy."
Some readers want that.
From the ratings I would guess most readers want that.
I have seen people comment they voted one star because it wasn't a description of sex (although I wonder how brain dead you need to be to need a simplified description of sex to get off).

So some of us try to write stories, most try to write descriptions of sex acts.
The shopping lists get 4.80 stars.
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Old 03-01-2014, 03:10 PM   #90
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In the case of the majority of the works here, we are.
However the OP is wrong in thinking it is a new thing.
Most of the stories have always been "Got cock, found hole, pushed, squirted, made happy."
Some readers want that.
From the ratings I would guess most readers want that.
I have seen people comment they voted one star because it wasn't a description of sex (although I wonder how brain dead you need to be to need a simplified description of sex to get off).

So some of us try to write stories, most try to write descriptions of sex acts.
The shopping lists get 4.80 stars.
Some spot-on comments.

All I would say is that, with the dumbing down of education (at least on this side of the Atlantic), those of us who are looking for any elegance/originality/craftsmanship as far as presentation is concerned will be having an increasingly hard time of it.

The unstated but unavoidable conclusion would appear to be: maybe go and form another Literotica with 'higher' goals...
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Old 03-01-2014, 09:21 PM   #91
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It is my impression that the masses are becoming lazy as video offers them everything they need and their imaginations no longer are required. Old movies had effects that still required you to "believe" and see past the wires, rubber costumes and other trickery, now we nearly create reality visually. This means less and less people have the inclination and perhaps the skill to use words to conjure images inside their heads, and if those folks try to write they simply use words to draw pictures.

What is literary? As someone said it is probably the foolish pursuit of art and starving while at it so later generations can discover the brilliance and laud your work after you can no longer hear the praises. I suspect that writers are increasingly headed for irrelevance in the modern visual world, so even the most pathetic and shitty author is now literary, once the cycle moves and books become a rediscovered treasure of some by-gone era. So rejoice in being a literary icon in the future, maybe, possibly, or not.
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:33 PM   #92
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Some spot-on comments.

All I would say is that, with the dumbing down of education (at least on this side of the Atlantic), those of us who are looking for any elegance/originality/craftsmanship as far as presentation is concerned will be having an increasingly hard time of it.

The unstated but unavoidable conclusion would appear to be: maybe go and form another Literotica with 'higher' goals...
Or for a bit less effort, set up a review site where readers who agree on what they like can highlight the good stories they find here and elsewhere.
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Old 03-02-2014, 12:13 AM   #93
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It is my impression that the masses are becoming lazy as video offers them everything they need and their imaginations no longer are required. Old movies had effects that still required you to "believe" and see past the wires, rubber costumes and other trickery, now we nearly create reality visually. This means less and less people have the inclination and perhaps the skill to use words to conjure images inside their heads, and if those folks try to write they simply use words to draw pictures.
As someone who had two or three (or four) years making most of my pay cheque from radio drama, I’m inclined to believe that CGI still comes second to a receptive brain.

If the written word is currently struggling to keep up with the visual world, I think it is because not enough writers strive to tap into their readers brains. And, in some ways, who can blame them? It’s the money. I suspect that if JRR Tolkien was alive today, he would be working at Weta Workshop rather than being hunched over a keyboard.
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Old 03-02-2014, 12:47 AM   #94
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You could also revive this thread.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=428901
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Old 03-02-2014, 12:56 AM   #95
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What ails writing is what's wrong with everything else, reality and what consumers demand aren't congruent. There are no Caesar's in blue jeans IRL. Princess doesn't bring bums home to meet mommy and poppy. Princess sneaks her bums in the window when the folks are at their speak easy.
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:56 AM   #96
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If the written word is currently struggling to keep up with the visual world, I think it is because not enough writers strive to tap into their readers brains. And, in some ways, who can blame them? It’s the money. I suspect that if JRR Tolkien was alive today, he would be working at Weta Workshop rather than being hunched over a keyboard.
My opinion is as much driven by myself as an indictment of others, I find movies and pictures addictive, easier than reading. A receptive brain is by far the most powerful creative engine going, but I find visual cotton candy to be like any drug, the cheap, easy path, why imagine when you can have it turned on for you? Would Tolkien write novels or scripts? Is it not alluring to see your imagined worlds given life on the big screen like an inferno versus hoping they flicker like a candle in some mind somewhere? I write so I love words, but I see the struggle words have, after all, video killed the radio star.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:00 AM   #97
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In the case of the majority of the works here, we are.
However the OP is wrong in thinking it is a new thing.
Most of the stories have always been "Got cock, found hole, pushed, squirted, made happy."
Some readers want that.
From the ratings I would guess most readers want that.
I have seen people comment they voted one star because it wasn't a description of sex (although I wonder how brain dead you need to be to need a simplified description of sex to get off).

So some of us try to write stories, most try to write descriptions of sex acts.
The shopping lists get 4.80 stars.
Is good erotic literature exclusively a complex, believable plot in which sex plays a pivotal role, or is there space in the definition for well-crafted scenes which carry a basic plot (shopping list) but aspire to do so believably and move the reader nonetheless?
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:57 AM   #98
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Is good erotic literature exclusively a complex, believable plot in which sex plays a pivotal role, or is there space in the definition for well-crafted scenes which carry a basic plot (shopping list) but aspire to do so believably and move the reader nonetheless?
What is good, what is erotic, and what is literature are all subjective issues which only the readers can decide for themselves.

If the story works for the reader, even if only for one reader, and that person thinks the story meets all three criteria, then it is good, erotic and literature. Another reader may disagree.

If hundreds of readers think the three criteria have been met, then they probably have, but there will be hundreds more who think they haven't been met.
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:44 AM   #99
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I think what I am about to propose has already been stated in different terms in this thread, but I would like to state it a different way.

Popularity is not necessarily a reliable measure of talent. Britney Spears is one of the most popular singers in the world, but her vocal talent is, by all measures, substandard. What her popularity signifies is that she is a great entertainer, and entertainment is, in itself, an art. She is not a great singer.

Consequently, attaining five stars on Lit with a million views or even selling a million books does not mean one is a great writer. It only means that particular story is great entertainment.

There is a difference, there are standards, and your average Jane is not capable of critiquing art.
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:51 AM   #100
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Talking

You bastards. I am stuck now thinking about what pretentious waffle I can come up with next!
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