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Old 02-19-2014, 11:59 AM   #26
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Cerulean raises it's deadly head again, always makes me blue
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by HarryHill View Post
Cerulean raises it's deadly head again, always makes me blue
Wonderful American sentence! Really HH! You were trying, right?
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:08 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by champagne1982 View Post
Turns out you didn't need me after all. Love how you folks take care of yourselves.

On to Line Breaks though... I copied this from a thread I started a while back so yeah, we've discussed this before:
That treatise on line breaks you posted is exactly why we need you.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by greenmountaineer View Post
Although still a student in this nuance of poetry, I have been thinking about it more lately.

I like to suggest a complete thought in a line, when possible, and begin the next line with a slight and intended modification to hopefully surprise and maybe even delight the reader or shock for that matter, depending upon the context.

I'll illustrate with a stanza from a poem, "Love Poem I," just posted today:

Herschel's here too, a CPA,
just like his mother told him to be
home from the park before eight,

nine pm in the summertime

I also like to experiment with the sonics of line breaks. I write a fair amount in iambic tetrameter and like to vary the sound of the poem by ending a line with a trochee and starting the next line with the same. At the final draft I try to get an intuitive sense of how the poem sounds and whether or not there's enough variation or perhaps too much.

I enjoy threads like these very much.
*Smile~ *curtsey~ Hello greenmountaineer~ I had to resort to google two or three times for your post. -

Quote:
Originally Posted by todski28 View Post
I always feel like a fifth wheel reading these threads, so much of what is said could be written in Swahili to me, I rely on intuition and sound links to try and break a poem. basically I have no freaking idea my fingers just do their thing
mmhm. what todski said. (hi Todski; a pleasure to meet you.)

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Originally Posted by pelegrino View Post
It's good to break at break point,
And have a brandy or smoke a joint...
Then think that every strophe,
Must have its antistrophe,
Some poets are sublime,
Without rhythm or rhyme,
But this is not to say,
Those tricks are not ok,
Just follow your way,
Greetings from the blue Med,

Thanks, Neo, for the thread!

Lol~ pelegrino. nice.
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:07 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by bronzeage View Post
It's pistils and stamens and verses and strophes.
It only matters if one is unduly interested
in the sex life of a flowers.

I can edit line breaks a dozen times and be perfectly satisfied each time. Except for trying to count beats, there is no rule, not even a vague guideline. I have discovered the spoken line demands a different break from the visual read. I'm not sure why, but when I print stuff before a reading, I always find line breaks which don't sound right and so make special edits.

OH! a familiar face. It's good to see you again, Bronz. Been a while.
Thank you for the information.
We've known each other for years;- way back, i think you may have even seen some of what i've uh,..."written." (term used loosely. I dont "write," per se. it's not "crafted." or "thought out." I think i removed them all years ago.

I've never even considered my line breaks. Well, i havent considered them when writing. I know when i read something(and i don't read poetry much(and that's almost pitiful), i like finding the rhythm/beat it contains. When the rhythm "misses," it makes my thought flow falter. I'll even blink and have to re-read.- and re-read, til i find that rhythm again. But i also feel that a reader can be presumptuous as to the rhythm of piece, and make themselves falter when it changes/varies.

Your info about line breaks being different with reading the piece aloud, is intriguing. Very curious.
Do you leave them as is in the written piece? or change it and leave it when you post an audio for the piece?
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Wonderful American sentence! Really HH! You were trying, right?
A smart ass remark always looks better if you put it in a frame
..
yes and thank you champers for the inspiration long time good to see you.
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:06 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by HarryHill View Post
A smart ass remark always looks better if you put it in a frame
..
yes and thank you champers for the inspiration long time good to see you.
I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, just really like the sentence. I'm never quite sure until I count the syllables when they're not in the AS thread.

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Old 02-19-2014, 02:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, just really like the sentence. I'm never quite sure until I count the syllables when they're not in the AS thread.

No, no, no sis
I'm the smart ass not you... lol and sigh
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:20 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by HarryHill View Post
No, no, no sis
I'm the smart ass not you... lol and sigh


smart arse remark framed by the form :nods:
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Old 02-19-2014, 04:18 PM   #35
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OH! a familiar face. It's good to see you again, Bronz. Been a while.
Thank you for the information.
We've known each other for years;- way back, i think you may have even seen some of what i've uh,..."written." (term used loosely. I dont "write," per se. it's not "crafted." or "thought out." I think i removed them all years ago.

I've never even considered my line breaks. Well, i havent considered them when writing. I know when i read something(and i don't read poetry much(and that's almost pitiful), i like finding the rhythm/beat it contains. When the rhythm "misses," it makes my thought flow falter. I'll even blink and have to re-read.- and re-read, til i find that rhythm again. But i also feel that a reader can be presumptuous as to the rhythm of piece, and make themselves falter when it changes/varies.

Your info about line breaks being different with reading the piece aloud, is intriguing. Very curious.
Do you leave them as is in the written piece? or change it and leave it when you post an audio for the piece?
I don't think I have ever posted an audio piece, but I have recorded a lot of my work. Anything I read has already been published or posted, so there's no real going back and changing the lines.

One night I read a series of Tankas for an audience. I realized the lines and the syllable count was superfluous. Line length and enjambment are really for the benefit of the eye, not the ear.
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Old 02-19-2014, 04:30 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bronzeage View Post
I don't think I have ever posted an audio piece, but I have recorded a lot of my work. Anything I read has already been published or posted, so there's no real going back and changing the lines.

One night I read a series of Tankas for an audience. I realized the lines and the syllable count was superfluous. Line length and enjambment are really for the benefit of the eye, not the ear.
Interesting.

*goes to look up "Tankas" and "enjambment"
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:30 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Neonurotic View Post
I mainly put line breaks for flow and rhythm of my poem. I pay particular attention to the end word and how it effects the beginning word for the new line. I want the end word to be interesting enough a reader will want to read more, like a little cliff hanger for some poems, other poems for emphasis or a surprise.

I treat stanzas like paragraphs in a story, which do have kind of rhythm of its own because I noticed I naturally have stanzas that are the same line count with other stanzas in poem. It's not something I do on purpose, kind of annoying really once I realized I was doing it.

I don't know if any of that is right, but its what I do and picked up along the way the last eleven years I've been part of PoBo. I remember those first poems and cringe, I still write crap, but at least it's improved crap.
this is very good
just sayin'
optimally every word must have some relation with every other word, but end of line and front of line are key positions, at least in reading.
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:40 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todski28 View Post
I always feel like a fifth wheel reading these threads, so much of what is said could be written in Swahili to me, I rely on intuition and sound links to try and break a poem. basically I have no freaking idea my fingers just do their thing
keep doing that, it works for the most part. you've pretty sound intuition; saying that, there's nothing wrong with questioning it to make sure it's breaking where breaks work most effectively and feels right/sounds right/presents itself well to the eye.

as for swahili, a load still reads like greek to me

personally, i tend to make a break where a little extra emphasis is required for the first word/sound of the next line. it will depend entirely on the context, though, whether or not there's a form to adhere to, a rhyme-scheme or syllabic count and stuff.

if i make a break on a weak word, like 'the', perhaps, it's entirely due to the run-on nature of the lines/thought/image and trying to stress that opening sound following. it's nice when an entire idea/image fills a line before a break occurs as it tends to be neater, more compact (maybe) on the page - it can, however, lead to other issues when trying to link all these separate thoughts/images unless there's an already built-in very clear step-to-step thing happening. above all, the voice of the poem, whether it holds a formality or a looseness, should be the overriding drive when determining where to break.

feedback is an important tool to help you see if your choices match up with the readers' reactions. i've had some very helpful comments that have shown me the value of further breaks than i'd originally used or how to eliminate words that simply didn't do anything in a write and so could be cut.
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:34 PM   #39
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I gained a different perspective on line breaks when I began reading about "The Black Mountain Poets" who believed the line should reflect the rhythm of a breath. I must admit ending a line in "the" sometimes still feels like fingers scraping a blackboard to me, but I think that has as much to do with the kind of poetry I read when I first began reading or in some cases just sloppy writing, of course. Someone may prove me wrong, but I don't Yeats would have ended a line with "the."

Once I began re-thinking the cadence of the line in my mind's ear, I responded differently. Here, I think, is a good example in a short excerpt from a poem by Denise Levertov:

Clouds

The clouds as I see them, rising
urgently, roseate in the
mounting of somber power
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:47 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by greenmountaineer View Post
I gained a different perspective on line breaks when I began reading about "The Black Mountain Poets" who believed the line should reflect the rhythm of a breath. I must admit ending a line in "the" sometimes still feels like fingers scraping a blackboard to me, but I think that has as much to do with the kind of poetry I read when I first began reading or in some cases just sloppy writing, of course. Someone may prove me wrong, but I don't Yeats would have ended a line with "the."

Once I began re-thinking the cadence of the line in my mind's ear, I responded differently. Here, I think, is a good example in a short excerpt from a poem by Denise Levertov:

Clouds

The clouds as I see them, rising
urgently, roseate in the
mounting of somber power
This pretty much describes the way I've come to think about line breaks, too. I used to think one had to end on a strong word--a noun or verb, usually--for the line to be effective. But now I think what you choose has as much to do with the speed of reading
a line as the look of it. If you want to push a reader to move faster, for example, you could not only enjamb a line but end it on a word that will make the reader fly (instead of plod) to the next line (unless you want them to plod and then you do other stuff).
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:17 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
This pretty much describes the way I've come to think about line breaks, too. I used to think one had to end on a strong word--a noun or verb, usually--for the line to be effective. But now I think what you choose has as much to do with the speed of reading
a line as the look of it. If you want to push a reader to move faster, for example, you could not only enjamb a line but end it on a word that will make the reader fly (instead of plod) to the next line (unless you want them to plod and then you do other stuff).
So you are saying that line breaks are as much about tempo as anything else?
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:05 PM   #42
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So you are saying that line breaks are as much about tempo as anything else?
I'm saying they can be, for me. I'm trying to write more mindfully instead of going just on intuition, which I did for many years. So now I find myself thinking more about how things like tempo play with meaning and tone.
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:13 PM   #43
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Oh good Neo I was just thinking about things like this as I read Tsotha's post in the 30/30 companion (nice job) and wishing he had some of twelves threads to refer to when I read Achilles heel thread
1201's threads can be accessed. Just search the forum for them. I went back and reread his threads that he started for poets he admired ( or whatever his reason was then). He had some terrific interviews with some of the best poets here. I am sure they must still be relevant

He needed to do a thread on himself.

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Old 02-27-2014, 06:30 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by greenmountaineer View Post
I gained a different perspective on line breaks when I began reading about "The Black Mountain Poets" who believed the line should reflect the rhythm of a breath. I must admit ending a line in "the" sometimes still feels like fingers scraping a blackboard to me, but I think that has as much to do with the kind of poetry I read when I first began reading or in some cases just sloppy writing, of course. Someone may prove me wrong, but I don't Yeats would have ended a line with "the."

Once I began re-thinking the cadence of the line in my mind's ear, I responded differently. Here, I think, is a good example in a short excerpt from a poem by Denise Levertov:

Clouds

The clouds as I see them, rising
urgently, roseate in the
mounting of somber power
I'll do something dangerous. I hope I'm not vandalizing some legendary poet's work, but, as it is, it just feels wrong to me. (Opinions—everyone has them).

I'm not sure if I understand this, some of the words are unusual to me. Perhaps one of you natives can help me?

"Roseate" - to become rose colored, or
"Roseate" - some kind of movement, alluding to a wind rose?

"Mounting of somber power" - what is a "mounting", in this context? An accumulation? A climb? Both?

In any case, this is how I'd have broken those lines:

The clouds as I see them, rising
urgently, roseate
the mounting of somber power

In my humble opinion, urgently is the single most important word, it sets the tone of the poem. The original second line dulls its effect, the line drags on and ends in a weak word. Also, it now reads (to me) in such a way that urgently serves both rising, above, and roseate, just after. Lines 1 and 3 tell what, line 2 is entirely how.

Again, this is how it feels right to me. I'd be interested in seeing how others would break it. Actually, that might be an interesting thread! Take a poem, without line breaks (a paragraph) and have everyone make their line breaks and send to one person, who then posts the result, so everyone can see how others did it.

Last edited by Tsotha : 02-27-2014 at 06:34 PM. Reason: bad Tsotha, can't write properly
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:36 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by greenmountaineer View Post
I gained a different perspective on line breaks when I began reading about "The Black Mountain Poets" who believed the line should reflect the rhythm of a breath. I must admit ending a line in "the" sometimes still feels like fingers scraping a blackboard to me, but I think that has as much to do with the kind of poetry I read when I first began reading or in some cases just sloppy writing, of course. Someone may prove me wrong, but I don't Yeats would have ended a line with "the."

Once I began re-thinking the cadence of the line in my mind's ear, I responded differently. Here, I think, is a good example in a short excerpt from a poem by Denise Levertov:

Clouds

The clouds as I see them, rising
urgently, roseate in the
mounting of somber power
If you haven't read Levertov's article "On the Function of the Line," you might find it interesting.
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tzara View Post
If you haven't read Levertov's article "On the Function of the Line," you might find it interesting.
Hm, the link doesn't work for me. :/

EDIT:

here, found it

Last edited by Tsotha : 02-27-2014 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:53 PM   #47
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Hm, the link doesn't work for me. :/

EDIT:

here, found it
Here's another URL for it. I didn't choose the one you posted, Tsotha, as the formatting is awful, at least in my browser.

There seem to be several copies of it floating around the web.
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:54 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Tzara View Post
Here's another URL for it. I didn't choose the one you posted, Tsotha, as the formatting is awful, at least in my browser.

There seem to be several copies of it floating around the web.
Ah, indeed, yours is much better!
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:20 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Tzara View Post
Here's another URL for it. I didn't choose the one you posted, Tsotha, as the formatting is awful, at least in my browser.

There seem to be several copies of it floating around the web.
Great article. Thanks for sharing it.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Tsotha View Post
I'll do something dangerous. I hope I'm not vandalizing some legendary poet's work, but, as it is, it just feels wrong to me. (Opinions—everyone has them).

I'm not sure if I understand this, some of the words are unusual to me. Perhaps one of you natives can help me?

"Roseate" - to become rose colored, or
"Roseate" - some kind of movement, alluding to a wind rose?

"Mounting of somber power" - what is a "mounting", in this context? An accumulation? A climb? Both?

In any case, this is how I'd have broken those lines:

The clouds as I see them, rising
urgently, roseate
the mounting of somber power

In my humble opinion, urgently is the single most important word, it sets the tone of the poem. The original second line dulls its effect, the line drags on and ends in a weak word. Also, it now reads (to me) in such a way that urgently serves both rising, above, and roseate, just after. Lines 1 and 3 tell what, line 2 is entirely how.

Again, this is how it feels right to me. I'd be interested in seeing how others would break it. Actually, that might be an interesting thread! Take a poem, without line breaks (a paragraph) and have everyone make their line breaks and send to one person, who then posts the result, so everyone can see how others did itd.

Tsotha, "Roseate" for me suggests a big time storm about to brew but in the end is a dull dead gray as I think is suggested in the entire piece:

Clouds
BY DENISE LEVERTOV
The clouds as I see them, rising
urgently, roseate in the
mounting of somber power

surging in evening haste over
roofs and hermetic
grim walls—

Last night
as if death had lit a pale light
in your flesh, your flesh
was cold to my touch, or not cold
but cool, cooling, as if the last traces
of warmth were still fading in you.
My thigh burned in cold fear where
yours touched it.

But I forced to mind my vision of a sky
close and enclosed, unlike the space in which these clouds move—
a sky of gray mist it appeared—
and how looking intently at it we saw
its gray was not gray but a milky white
in which radiant traces of opal greens,
fiery blues, gleamed, faded, gleamed again,
and how only then, seeing the color in the gray,
a field sprang into sight, extending
between where we stood and the horizon,

a field of freshest deep spiring grass
starred with dandelions,
green and gold
gold and green alternating in closewoven
chords, madrigal field.

Is death’s chill that visited our bed
other than what it seemed, is it
a gray to be watched keenly?

Wiping my glasses and leaning westward,
clearing my mind of the day’s mist and leaning
into myself to see
the colors of truth

I watch the clouds as I see them
in pomp advancing, pursuing
the fallen sun.
Denise Levertov, “Clouds” from Poems 1960-1967. Copyright © 1966 by Denise Levertov. Reprinted with the permission of New Directions Publishing Corporation, www.wwnorton.com/nd/welcome.htm.
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