Marina Tsvetaeva, [Мне нравится, ...] + 2 translations

Marina Tsvetaeva, [Мне нравится, ...] + 2 translations

First a translation by Elaine Feinstein, then by me, then the original (English first because some of you would skip Russian anyway).

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Марина Цветаева
(Marina Tsvetaeva), 1915
(trans. Elaine Feinstein)​

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Comments welcome, please.

Regards,

Hi Guru Ji (bet you thought we forgot that).

These translations are like two sides of a coin. I am interested to know how you arrived at your version, which is so different from Feinstein's. Do you feel your translation captures the original better and if so, why? Is it just a matter of word choices or is there something more?

Senna Jawa, I do not speak Russian, so I can only compare the two translated versions to one another. I feel that your translation flows much better, it is easier to understand and just seems more like something written directly in English, rather than translated. Example given, the end of the poem, in your version, has a repetition of "For... / For... / For..." which sounds good (to me). In my humble opinion, there is also a subtle awkwardness in the first translation, lines that are too long or too short, line breaks that seem out of place, something that your version avoids.

With that said, there are significant (?) differences between the two versions. The first one is the choice of word in the first stanza, "sickness" and "longing". Sickness, even "love sickness", implies a negative feeling, which is arguably portrayed all along the poem (the narrator seems happy to be allowed to live without this man). Without reading the original version, I cannot tell which meaning is closer to the poet's original intention, but both seem like reasonable choices.

The second thing that caught my attention is this passage:

the heavy earth will never flow away
from us, beneath our feet, and so
we can relax together, and not watch
our words.

Click to expand...

To me, this means that their world will not crumble, that there will be no great cataclysm, despite there being nothing between them. They can still talk normally, without awkwardness, without pretense, without carefully avoiding subjects, or crafting conversation. In your version, the same idea is present, however, it isn't as clear, in my humble opinion. The equivalent passage in your version is, I think:

That the heavy sphere of Earth
Does not flow under our feet .
I am glad that it's allowed to be funny--
Spoiled--and waste no words for games,

Click to expand...

Yet lines 1 and 2 seem a bit disconnected from 3 and 4, unlike in the first translation. (Is the period at the end of line 2 necessary?)

I feel the last stanza in your version is clearer about (what seems to be) the intention of the poet, that is, that he shows love for her when he allows her to love another. The first version says, instead:

Thank you for loving me like this,
for you feel love, although you do not know it.

Click to expand...

Which carries a different meaning.

A very enjoyable poem. Thank you for sharing it.

Angeline said:

Hi Guru Ji (bet you thought we forgot that).

These translations are like two sides of a coin. I am interested to know how you arrived at your version, which is so different from Feinstein's. Do you feel your translation captures the original better and if so, why? Is it just a matter of word choices or is there something more?

Click to expand...

I will answer Angeline and Tsotha in the chronological order--in this post to Angeline.

Yes, guru ji, that's me, I have almost forgotten.

I just did my job, I just translated the poem. I acquired a volume of translations by Elain Feinstein years later. I believe that my translation is more faithful--I will assist you later with the comparison with the Russian original. You may see, as a minimum, that the first stanza has 7 verses in Feinstein's version, but 8 in the Russian original and in my translation. I will also let you judge the differences once we get more into it.

I feel that in the case of a beautiful poem like the one by Tsvetaeva it is actually not easier but harder to preserve the original as close as possible.

Best regards,

Tsotha said:

Senna Jawa, [....]. I feel that your translation flows much better, it is easier to understand and just seems more like something written directly in English, rather than translated. [...]

Click to expand...

Hi Tsotha, thank you, it's wonderful news to me. At this time I am only saying Hello to you. Within a few hours or at most tomorrow I will be very happy to look at the issues together with you, I will try to represent the Russian text as well as I can in our analysis. Hey, we may include Angeline

Best regards,

Senna Jawa said:

Hi Tsotha, thank you, it's wonderful news to me. At this time I am only saying Hello to you. Within a few hours or at most tomorrow I will be very happy to look at the issues together with you, I will try to represent the Russian text as well as I can in our analysis. Hey, we may include Angeline

Best regards,

Click to expand...

It should be interesting as my Russian is pretty well limited to da and nyet.

I spent the last year of my undergraduate studies in Germany. An expat Professor (Ukranian) claimed that, "it is the Germans tragedy that they could not understand Russian and the Russians that they could not understand German - and it is the tragedy of the Czechs and Poles that they understand both - and far to well."

I'll be interested to follow this thread - difficult at this point to offer much.

ishtat said:

I spent the last year of my undergraduate studies in Germany. An expat Professor (Ukranian) claimed that, "it is the Germans tragedy that they could not understand Russian and the Russians that they could not understand German - and it is the tragedy of the Czechs and Poles that they understand both - and far to well."

I'll be interested to follow this thread - difficult at this point to offer much.

Click to expand...

Hi ishtat, thank you for your interest in the Tsvetaeva poem and translations.

Your expat Professor's statement is gibberish. And in my personal experience, also the detailed information claimed about the knowledge of languages is not accurate either. If you like we can talk about it at litblog 2014++.

Best regards,

The actual comparisons

Tsotha, first of all--thank you.

Tsotha said:

Example given, the end of the poem, in your version, has a repetition of "For... / For... / For..." which sounds good (to me).

Click to expand...

Now, with your naked eye you can see the repetition also in the Russian original. 5-fold in a row in Russian, 4-fold in a row in my English. However, all together you have 6 times word За at the beginning of the verses of the given stanza, and ALSO six occurrences of For-s at the beginning of the verses of the respective English stanza. On the top of it there is just one additional appearance of word за in the considered Russian stanza, and the same goes for word for in English. Of course I didn't bother counting the repetitions. I let my English to follow Russian, and that's how it worked.

[...] there is also a subtle awkwardness in the first translation, lines that are too long or too short, line breaks that seem out of place, something that your version avoids.

Click to expand...

I am actually surprised that the other translator, Elaine Feinstein, allowed the number of the verses in the first stanza to differ from the original: 7 versus 8. In my translation it is still 8, as in the original. You're coming back to this stanza so let me address it further when you do it.

With that said, there are significant (?) differences between the two versions. The first one is the choice of word in the first stanza, "sickness" and "longing". Sickness, even "love sickness", implies a negative feeling, which is arguably portrayed all along the poem (the narrator seems happy to be allowed to live without this man). Without reading the original version, I cannot tell which meaning is closer to the poet's original intention, but both seem like reasonable choices.

Click to expand...

Let's have patience, step by step. Noun боль means pain. The most common meaning of the adjective больны is being sick or feeling pain. And this adjective is more like a verb. However, in the given context of the poem, the meaning is to long or to miss someone. And I don't think that there is a different Russian synonym for that (for to long for someone or to miss someone). Thus I claim that in the given context the only meaning of боль is to long. A poet (and everybody is a poet) will still be aware of the coincidence with feeling pain but that's it and no more.

Know that a sport's fan (kibitzer) in Russian is болельщик. However it is not common to imagine pain when thinking about being a sports fan. You'd rather think about potentially longing for or missing your sport club. And joke please about boxers. They may feel pain but it makes the sports fan happy .

Sorry, I need to nap some now. I'll continue (I hope).

I'll do something I should have done before... I realize not every sentence will match 1:1, but it's useful/interesting (to me) to search for some words to serve as anchors.

Мне (I am) нравится (glad?), что (that?) вы больны не мной,
I'm glad that you long not for me,

Мне нравится, что я больна не вами,
I'm glad that I long not for you,

Что никогда тяжелый шар земной (??)
That the heavy sphere of Earth

Не уплывет под нашими ногами. (feet?)
Does not flow under our feet .

Мне нравится, что можно быть смешной - (??)
I am glad that it's allowed to be funny--

Распущенной - и не играть словами,
Spoiled--and waste no words for games,

И не (not) краснеть удушливой волной, (??)
And not to be choked by a wave of blushing,

Слегка соприкоснувшись рукавами. (??)
When our sleeves touch ever so slightly.

---

Мне нравится еще, что вы при мне
I also like that in my presence undisturbed

Спокойно обнимаете другую,
Your arms surround another woman,

Не прочите мне в адовом огне
That you don't ask me to burn in poisoned

Гореть за то, что я не вас целую.
Flames when I am kissing not you.

Что имя нежное мое, мой нежный, не
That, sweetheart, you don't call my sweet name

Упоминаете ни днем, ни ночью - всуе...
Any day nor night, at any time,

Что никогда в церковной тишине
That in the calm of an Eastern Church

Не пропоют над нами (us?): аллилуйя!
They'll never sing for us: hallelujah!

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Спасибо вам и сердцем и рукой (??)
I thank you with my heart and hand

За (for) то, что вы меня - не (not) зная сами! (variation of me?) -
For your--unknown to you!--love of me,

Так любите: за мой ночной покой, (??)
For my peace at night, for the seldomness

За редкость встреч закатными часами,
Of our meetings at the sunset hour;

За наши (our?) не-гулянья (non-walk?) под (under?) луной,
For our non-walks under the moon,

За солнце, не (not) у нас над (over?) головами,-
For the sun not over our heads,

За то, что вы (your?) больны - увы! - не мной (me?),
For your longing--alas!--not for me,

За то, что я (my?) больна - увы! - не вами (you?)!
For my longing--alas!--not for you.

Pronouns (?)
мной
вами
наши
луной
сами
вы (possessive?)
нами

I'll edit this message as I work on it. I'm trying not to use a dictionary, because that's no fun at all. But feel free to add any notes you want.

Senna Jawa said:

Know that a sports fan (kibitzer) in Russian is болельщик. However it is not common to imagine pain when thinking about being a sports fan.

Click to expand...

Oh, I respectfully disagree. Growing emotional attachment and a sense of belonging to a group whose purpose is to be in constant conflict for imaginary reasons—I can very well imagine pain.

Tsotha said:

Oh, I respectfully disagree. Growing emotional attachment and a sense of belonging to a group whose purpose is to be in constant conflict for imaginary reasons—I can very well imagine pain.

Click to expand...

Right, it's a pain to the sports fan of the opposite team . But, yes - seriously, you are right. You'd still have to remind yourself about the metaphor of pain, while you'd not think about pain on an everyday level.

Tsotha said:

I'll do something I should have done before... I realize not every sentence will match 1:1, but it's useful/interesting (to me) to search for some words to serve as anchors.

Мне (I am) нравится (glad?), что (that?) вы больны не мной,
I'm glad that you long not for me,

Мне нравится, что я больна не вами,
I'm glad that I long not for you,

Click to expand...

Overall, not perfect but gramatically and meaning wise the about most perfect translation of Мне нравится would be: it pleases me. I just don't like the poetic sound of pleases. I would prefer verb like. However with like you cannot use passive voice in English, you cannot say it likes me--the meaning would be wrong, you have to say I like it that.... You could still say it is likable to me but it would be too awkward.

Now there is the most interesting option but it'd be too much, I think. If you truly listen to the Russian word нравится, then you'd hear noun нрав which means taste--that's one flavor of the meaning. I don't see this approximate equality нрав=taste in the dictionaries, I don't know why, but this approximation is true. Thus it tastes good to me could be a respective translation. Hm, now it feels more reasonable to me than I thought before.

Anyway, glad poetically feels better to me than pleases or pleased. Perhaps I should use word emotionally rather than poetically. Both.

Regards,

The phrase Не уплывет под нашими ногами conveys a spiritual romantic feeling--that's how you feel together when being in love (but first remove the initial negation Не, so that instead of: you feel, have: you'd feel).

Tsotha said:

Что никогда тяжелый шар земной (??)
That the heavy sphere of Earth

Click to expand...

• Что=that as in: I think that this is right;
• никогда=never;
• тяжелый=heavy;
• земной=Earthly--another adjective. The order of words in Russian is quite arbitrary so that you can have adjective-noun-adjective, no problem, and poetically such freedom can be nice;
• шар=sphere or ball.

The literal translation so far is: that never the heavy Earthly sphere.

Regards,

listening in, hoping to learn things.

Senna Jawa said:

Hi ishtat, thank you for your interest in the Tsvetaeva poem and translations.

Your expat Professor's statement is gibberish. And in my personal experience, also the detailed information claimed about the knowledge of languages is not accurate either. If you like we can talk about it at litblog 2014++.

Best regards,

Click to expand...

Quite possibly. But I don't think he meant himself to be taken entirely seriously.

Senna Jawa said:

Overall, not perfect but gramatically and meaning wise the about most perfect translation of Мне нравится would be: it pleases me. I just don't like the poetic sound of pleases. I would prefer verb like. However with like you cannot use passive voice in English, you cannot say it likes me--the meaning would be wrong, you have to say I like it that.... You could still say it is likable to me but it would be too awkward.

Now there is the most interesting option but it'd be too much, I think. If you truly listen to the Russian word нравится, then you'd hear noun нрав which means taste--that's one flavor of the meaning. I don't see this approximate equality нрав=taste in the dictionaries, I don't know why, but this approximation is true. Thus it tastes good to me could be a respective translation. Hm, now it feels more reasonable to me than I thought before.

Anyway, glad poetically feels better to me than pleases or pleased. Perhaps I should use word emotionally rather than poetically. Both.

Click to expand...

I'm not so surprised Feinstein's translation doesn't keep the 8 lines. After attempting to identify my "anchors", above, it seems (just seems) to me that Feinstein's translation doesn't really attempt to maintain the structure of the original poem at all, but aims at delivering one possible interpretation of Tsvetaeva's message—hers.

In both versions, the narrator is glad that they don't share anything, pointing toward bad feelings. I do feel that "it pleases me" would be perhaps more accurate in meaning. To my non-native English speaker ear, "It pleases me that we don't long for each other" is slightly less aggressive than "I'm glad that we don't long for each other".

However, I feel that Feinstein's translation is still a bit more "negative", since she uses the word "sickness", which is definitely a negative feeling. And in your version, despite being glad for the "lack of longing", the narrator holds a positive view of the possibility of a relationship, as evidenced at the end with the word "alas":

For your longing--alas!--not for me,
For my longing--alas!--not for you.

I also have a third reading to this poem, and I apologize in advance if I'm missing the mark. Reading your version, it seems like they are actually lovers. In my humble opinion, the hints are all over:

it (this relationship they have) is allowed to be funny--
Spoiled--and waste no words for games, (They don't need any pretense. They can just have fun.)
And not to be choked by a wave of blushing,
When our sleeves touch ever so slightly.

I also like that in my presence undisturbed
Your arms surround another woman,
That you don't ask me to burn in poisoned
Flames when I am kissing not you. (They can share something, without feeling jealousy or possessiveness.)

That, sweetheart, you don't call my sweet name
Any day nor night, at any time,
That in the calm of an Eastern Church
They'll never sing for us: hallelujah! (They don't have the obligations of a married couple.)

I thank you with my heart and hand ("and hand" -> there is actually some kind of contact between them)
For your--unknown to you!--love of me,
For my peace at night, for the seldomness
Of our meetings at the sunset hour; (Again, the lack of bad feelings, the lack of obligation.)

Hm. Regarding the choice of word, two other options that came to my mind: it feels good that you long not for me / or simply: it is good that you long not for me

Senna Jawa said:

The phrase Не уплывет под нашими ногами conveys a spiritual romantic feeling--that's how you feel together when being in love (but first remove the initial negation Не, so that instead of: you feel, have: you'd feel).

• Что=that as in: I think that this is right;
• никогда=never;
• тяжелый=heavy;
• земной=Earthly--another adjective. The order of words in Russian is quite arbitrary so that you can have adjective-noun-adjective, no problem, and poetically such freedom is can be nice;
• шар=sphere or ball.

The literal translation so far is: that never the heavy Earthly sphere.

Click to expand...

Hm, I see. Quite a different meaning from Feinstein's interpretation ("the earth will never flow away so we can relax"), and both seem reasonable.

This is a beautiful poem in both translations!

Which serves to remind me of the role the translator plays: in both cases we are not reading what the original author wrote, but rather what the translator read.

Fidelity is about so much more than definitions.

I love Ciardi's Inferno, despite criticism that he misrepresents the Italian. It is a gorgeous poem in its own right.

ishtat said:

Quite possibly. But I don't think he meant himself to be taken entirely seriously.

Click to expand...

Best regards,

Back to the comparisons

Hi Tsotha,

First let me thank you for pointing out to my ortho--I have already corrected it.

Now the pronouns:

******************************************
мной = me;
вами = you but English you has more than one grammatical interpretation;
наши = our or ours;
луной = a derivative of луна = moon. This is NOT a pronoun
сами = ourselves; politeness and respecting personal distance
вы = plural you; (no, it's not possessive, it's the direct main form);
нами = us.
******************************************

The distant plural you makes this poem so gentle!

Best,