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One of my wife's friends is a pre op trans gender woman. Her boyfriend was asked at there 25th reunion if he was gay (very crass question in my opinion) his answer was no. And I agree with him. Anatomical he may be gay but the real person inside is a boy/man.
 
funluvinaj said:
It's not like we have a choice in the matter... I have always wanted smaller breasts. :rolleyes: I hate mine... Even though they are noticed often.
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Very true a friend of mine and her daughter both got reductions. Both were very happy afterwards. For me it is just personal preference I have never been a breast man. The only time I found them very exciting was after our daughter was born the Mrs. Breast feed and the first time we had sex after she was born she sprayed like a geyser.
 
warl0ck1 said:
Very true a friend of mine and her daughter both got reductions. Both were very happy afterwards. For me it is just personal preference I have never been a breast man. The only time I found them very exciting was after our daughter was born the Mrs. Breast feed and the first time we had sex after she was born she sprayed like a geyser.
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I don't have any medical necessity to have mine reduced... In order for insurance to cover it, one must show need. I'm fortunate not to have any back pain from them. They are just irritating as far as exercising and buying clothes.
 
warl0ck1 said:
Very true a friend of mine and her daughter both got reductions. Both were very happy afterwards. For me it is just personal preference I have never been a breast man. The only time I found them very exciting was after our daughter was born the Mrs. Breast feed and the first time we had sex after she was born she sprayed like a geyser.
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Oh god yes.... I had porn star boobs starting during pregnancy and afterwards:D Huge and sticking straight out... And so fake looking:eek:

I'm happy with my breasts usually, but that was ridiculous. I also wish I could deflate or remove my breasts sometimes, especially when doing sport or something.

And the clothes thing works both ways. I do have to be careful about styles or I can look like a football player.


The funny thing is that my (full biological) sister is A-B cup ... That's some strange genetics
 
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funluvinaj said:
So here's my "teach me Sticky" question!!

Not that labels are necessary but I had a friend ask me and I just wasn't sure...

Her niece (nephew?) was born female but has dressed/lived as a male since very young. While there's never been any discussion in my friend's family that J is trans it would seem so. What my friend asked was is J gay? Born female by genitals but lives as a man and is attracted to girls or because he's male in thought/action is there another way to label that.

Did you follow that?
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This might sound like a smart-ass answer but it is sincere: I think it's up to J what label he wears. "J" sounds like a good label to me :)
If J is a trans man then, like plenty of men, he just doesn't want to talk about it. As regards sexuality, well unless he clearly hitting on you then it doesn't matter. :)
 
stickygirl said:
to say I feel like a left handed person in a right-handed world is an understatement
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I had read somewhere that the metaphor of trans people as 'a [A] trapped in the body of a ' was offensive and I'm trying to figure out what would be a better way to put it. I read some very good articles on the subject, particularly this one. One of the commenters writes:

She used the metaphor of handed-ness and told me to imagine that humans were born with only one hand, their right hand. For most people, not a problem, not even something they ever really have to stop and consider. But for left handed folks…well, many can probably still function, but they will go through life knowing something is wrong and things just aren’t the way they should be. Their instincts will all be off and they will have to learn rather than have the benefit of any kind of innate understanding. They are different, and their differences will likely be noticed by their peers and they will be tormented because let’s face it, humans are assholes.

Now imagine there is a way to take your right arm and put it where your left is and essentially ‘fix’ this problem. But, since everyone ‘knows’ humans are right handed, you’ll be demonized for even considering such an operation. And if you do get the operation, you’ll still be considered some kind of pervert for not sticking with how you were born, even though your body is now as it should be and you function better with your arm on the other side of your body. Some people are so offended by you messing with ‘nature’s plan’ that they’ll kill you if they find out.

It’s as vitally important and intrinsic to who you are as what hand you use, and as completely unimportant and meaningless as what hand your neighbor uses.
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This is also a rather powerful take on the subject.

Do you have any thoughts on the matter, Sticks?

stickygirl said:
I'm around an A'+' size - it depends on the outfit
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Nothing wrong with that. Some people like large breasted women, others prefer small, and to many it just doesn't matter because boobs! :D

stickygirl said:
As regards sexuality, well unless he clearly hitting on you then it doesn't matter. :)
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Excellent answer :)
 
haurni said:
I had read somewhere that the metaphor of trans people as 'a [A] trapped in the body of a ' was offensive and I'm trying to figure out what would be a better way to put it. I read some very good articles on the subject, particularly this one. One of the commenters writes:



This is also a rather powerful take on the subject.

Do you have any thoughts on the matter, Sticks?
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I don't know where I read the left handed in a right-handed world - I may have made it up:eek: but the more I think about it, the more I like it. My uncle told me how, when he was a boy, he was forced to adopt right handed practices, even though he was clearly left-handed. Go back further and I think left-handed people were suspected on all sorts of evils.

For one thing the left-right analogy is something people can appreciate, without any sexual connotations and it's almost certain they will have some experience of it. Ask people what problems they can envisage for left-handed people and they will bounce from one thought to another AND acknowledge it must be a bummer.

So I'm happy with the left-right analogy being a better way to describe being trans in a cis-world. It doesn't go far enough, but it does resonate with people far better than that awful "trapped in a man's body" shite, because that is SO far removed from people's experience that of course it becomes funny.

The left-right idea also leads people to think about the little things that right-handeds take for granted and they are quick to appreciate how awkward being left-handed must be. So it is with being trans: mundane things like restrooms, pronouns, medical care - or simply being considered as odd ('marked') for being non-cis gender. It's pretty obvious that genitalia are an issue, but that's something trans-folk can deal with themselves. By using 'trapped in wrong body', people immediately focus on the genitalia and forget that actually, trying to get your documents changed or avoiding being frisked in an airport, are the things that drive trans people to despair and suicide. The slow drip-drip of being undermined at every turn.


Oh wow - I love that second link 'Taking Steps' I'm gonna print that out. OMG that's amazing. I shall be monstrous. Thank you for finding that :heart: and for your always provocative questions Haurni.
 
stickygirl said:
Go back further and I think left-handed people were suspected on all sorts of evils.
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Yep. In fact, the word 'sinister' (from Latin) means 'on the left side' (as opposed to 'dexter', 'on the right', from which we get 'dexterous', meaning 'physical [or mental] adroitness or skill' - all of which are, of course, good things to have).

stickygirl said:
By using 'trapped in wrong body', people immediately focus on the genitalia
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That's a very good point. I hadn't thought about that (which is why I asked you in the first place! :D)

stickygirl said:
Oh wow - I love that second link 'Taking Steps'
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Thought you might :)
 
funluvinaj said:
So here's my "teach me Sticky" question!!

Not that labels are necessary but I had a friend ask me and I just wasn't sure...

Her niece (nephew?) was born female but has dressed/lived as a male since very young. While there's never been any discussion in my friend's family that J is trans it would seem so. What my friend asked was is J gay? Born female by genitals but lives as a man and is attracted to girls or because he's male in thought/action is there another way to label that.
Click to expand...

Like Sticky says, it comes down to how they identify (and don't rule out "bi" unless they've said they're only attracted to one gender). Most of the trans folk I know would self-describe based on the gender they identify as and the gender they're attracted to - e.g. a trans guy who's only attracted to women would probably identify as straight, but there are complications.

When you say "dressed/lived as a male" - does that mean actually using male identifiers, or just things like clothing? Without asking a person, there's not necessarily an easy way to tell between somebody who IDs as a straight trans man, and somebody who IDs as a hard-butch cis lesbian. And some may not be clear on those boundaries themselves, or may not feel the need to pick a side.

The words "gynophile" and "androphile" are useful for describing somebody who's attracted to women or men respectively, without making a statement about their own identity.

Defining orientation can also be tricky for people whose partners are transitioning. Louise Pratt is an Australian politician who self-defined as lesbian and got into a relationship with somebody who initially IDed as "butch lesbian" but ended up accepting themselves as transgender male. They stayed together, and Pratt still IDs as lesbian despite being with somebody who IDs as male - I guess the individual relationship trumps the general orientation in this case.
 
stickygirl said:
The left-right idea also leads people to think about the little things that right-handeds take for granted and they are quick to appreciate how awkward being left-handed must be. So it is with being trans: mundane things like restrooms, pronouns, medical care - or simply being considered as odd ('marked') for being non-cis gender. It's pretty obvious that genitalia are an issue, but that's something trans-folk can deal with themselves. By using 'trapped in wrong body', people immediately focus on the genitalia and forget that actually, trying to get your documents changed or avoiding being frisked in an airport, are the things that drive trans people to despair and suicide. The slow drip-drip of being undermined at every turn.
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Along with this, noting that not all transgender people feel the same way about their bodies. Some are very uncomfortable in their birth bodies and put a high priority on physical transition. For others, the body doesn't matter very much, except where it affects their ability to be respected as the gender they identify as.

The "trapped in wrong body" trope risks encouraging models that don't acknowledge this diversity among trans people - for instance, things like requiring full hormonal/surgical transition before people can get their documents changed. It's a hell of a thing to impose on somebody who doesn't want it. It's major surgery, it's treatment that many trans people will never be able to afford, it means sterilisation for people whose options for adopting etc may well be limited. For some it can be fatal - I know people for whom estrogen HRT would quite literally be the same level of risk as playing a round of Russian roulette.
 
stickygirl said:
I don't know where I read the left handed in a right-handed world - I may have made it up:eek: but the more I think about it, the more I like it. My uncle told me how, when he was a boy, he was forced to adopt right handed practices, even though he was clearly left-handed. Go back further and I think left-handed people were suspected on all sorts of evils.

For one thing the left-right analogy is something people can appreciate, without any sexual connotations and it's almost certain they will have some experience of it. Ask people what problems they can envisage for left-handed people and they will bounce from one thought to another AND acknowledge it must be a bummer.

So I'm happy with the left-right analogy being a better way to describe being trans in a cis-world. It doesn't go far enough, but it does resonate with people far better than that awful "trapped in a man's body" shite, because that is SO far removed from people's experience that of course it becomes funny.

The left-right idea also leads people to think about the little things that right-handeds take for granted and they are quick to appreciate how awkward being left-handed must be. So it is with being trans: mundane things like restrooms, pronouns, medical care - or simply being considered as odd ('marked') for being non-cis gender. It's pretty obvious that genitalia are an issue, but that's something trans-folk can deal with themselves. By using 'trapped in wrong body', people immediately focus on the genitalia and forget that actually, trying to get your documents changed or avoiding being frisked in an airport, are the things that drive trans people to despair and suicide. The slow drip-drip of being undermined at every turn.


Oh wow - I love that second link 'Taking Steps' I'm gonna print that out. OMG that's amazing. I shall be monstrous. Thank you for finding that :heart: and for your always provocative questions Haurni.
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I really like that analogy about the left-handedness.

I'm left handed, and had a left-handed mother who was forced to change to right handed (and who was vehemently opposed to me being changed).
I also passed down the left-handed ness .... And ended up fighting the older generation who believed that a child should be changed to right handed (or at least pushed and encouraged to use the right hand "put things into their right hand")

"You should discourage them from being left-handed because it's so hard for them. It's easier for them to be right handed"

It was so hard for this right handed person to understand that although being left handed had it's share of problems, forcing a child to change dominant hand is much harder and stressful for them.

And that being left handed isn't actually difficult in itself, but it's the fact that many things are designed to suit right handed people. And sometimes things are needlessly difficult - like right handed peelers and right handed desks ... That can be just as easily made to suit everyone.

And left-handers vary in the different ways they adapt. Many swear by left-handed scissors, whereas I didn't have left-handed scissors so I use right-handed scissors in my left hand and look along the back of my hand.... And I know someone who generally uses left-handed scissors, but if only right-handed scissors are available will use their right hand.
 
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Bramblethorn said:
Like Sticky says, it comes down to how they identify (and don't rule out "bi" unless they've said they're only attracted to one gender). Most of the trans folk I know would self-describe based on the gender they identify as and the gender they're attracted to - e.g. a trans guy who's only attracted to women would probably identify as straight, but there are complications.

When you say "dressed/lived as a male" - does that mean actually using male identifiers, or just things like clothing? Without asking a person, there's not necessarily an easy way to tell between somebody who IDs as a straight trans man, and somebody who IDs as a hard-butch cis lesbian. And some may not be clear on those boundaries themselves, or may not feel the need to pick a side.

The words "gynophile" and "androphile" are useful for describing somebody who's attracted to women or men respectively, without making a statement about their own identity.

Defining orientation can also be tricky for people whose partners are transitioning. Louise Pratt is an Australian politician who self-defined as lesbian and got into a relationship with somebody who initially IDed as "butch lesbian" but ended up accepting themselves as transgender male. They stayed together, and Pratt still IDs as lesbian despite being with somebody who IDs as male - I guess the individual relationship trumps the general orientation in this case.
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That makes sense, thank you.

I do not know the young person in question beyond me being at family functions with my bff. I only attempted to get insight as my friend asked me knowing that I might have insight because of my friendships and openness. I honestly don't need or don't care for labels... But I did want to try to give some education to someone who wants to know the right things to say and do.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone in my ignorance.
 
Erochic said:
I really like that analogy about the left-handedness.

I'm left handed, and had a left-handed mother ...
... And I know someone who generally uses left-handed scissors, but if only right-handed scissors are available will use their right hand.
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Yup... swap left handed to trans* and you have

"You should discourage them from being trans* because it's so hard for them. It's easier for them to be cis-gender"

People see that life can be difficult for left-handers but crucially, they don't blame them for being left-handed. They're not told they are imagining it, or seeking attention. Their parents are not accused of indulging their child or pushing them towards being left-handed because of some liberal agenda. It is accepted - there are left-handed people. There are trans* people too :)

...if only it were as simple as that... but I find it a good analogy and far better than the 'stuck in a lift' horror scenario.
 
funluvinaj said:
That makes sense, thank you.

I do not know the young person in question beyond me being at family functions with my bff. I only attempted to get insight as my friend asked me knowing that I might have insight because of my friendships and openness. I honestly don't need or don't care for labels... But I did want to try to give some education to someone who wants to know the right things to say and do.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone in my ignorance.
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I'm sure you didn't offend AJ. Far better to ask the question here :rose: Besides labels get misunderstood and misused so it's better to have a longer conversation with your bff than slap a label on and miss the chance to discuss the situation in more depth.
 
stickygirl said:
Yup... swap left handed to trans* and you have

"You should discourage them from being trans* because it's so hard for them. It's easier for them to be cis-gender"

People see that life can be difficult for left-handers but crucially, they don't blame them for being left-handed. They're not told they are imagining it, or seeking attention. Their parents are not accused of indulging their child or pushing them towards being left-handed because of some liberal agenda. It is accepted - there are left-handed people. There are trans* people too :)

...if only it were as simple as that... but I find it a good analogy and far better than the 'stuck in a lift' horror scenario.
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I don't go into details, but actually I live in a country that is a generation behind about lefthanders (and as you can imagine even more behind about transgender). The schools now are accepting it but the older generations not so much.

I actually was accused of those very things... That I was trying to influence the lefthandedness because of my ego because I was left handed - that I should have done things differently.

I had huge arguments about it. I knew that no matter how careful I was to offer the crayon in the middle - or even do what they suggested and give it to the right hand - it would not have made any difference to the inherent natural way of the child.


Edit: of course I do understand it is an analogy and it is still much much easier to be accepted for being left- handed - but it is an analogy that resonates with me.

Perhaps there is also an analogy to learning "disabilities" ... In that they are seen as something "wrong" that needs to be fixed, but actually the brain just works in a different way.
 
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Thanks Euro. It's easy to forget the pace of change in different parts of the world ( and that some of the change is distinctly backwards )
I just think if you heard someone remarking in scandalized tones that 'son-and-so' is transgender, you can simply reply "yep, and there are left-handed people" [get over it] :D
 
Even though I'm right handed, people might give me a hard time if they knew the things I try left handed. :eek:

...

Never mind. :D

Happy weekend sticky! How's life across the pond? :rose::kiss:
 
TomBoner said:
Even though I'm right handed, people might give me a hard time if they knew the things I try left handed. :eek:

...

Never mind. :D

Happy weekend sticky! How's life across the pond? :rose::kiss:
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Ha! :D I was forgetting that, Tom - thank you for keeping it real!! :kiss:

Life is getting there. The weather is very autumn and the garden still full of colour.

General update. I have not had any bloody problems but have yet to manage Mr Darcy :rolleyes: Also, since we were talking breasts the other day, I think my boobs are getting a little bigger. It could be wishful thinking... it could be a result of shoving the Austen boys inside me and I'm popping like a balloon :eek: Maybe my bras have shrunk.
 
stickygirl said:
General update. I have not had any bloody problems but have yet to manage Mr Darcy :rolleyes: Also, since we were talking breasts the other day, I think my boobs are getting a little bigger. It could be wishful thinking... it could be a result of shoving the Austen boys inside me and I'm popping like a balloon :eek: Maybe my bras have shrunk.
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I do hope Mr. Darcy will not cause you any problems, the cad!
 
Believe it or not, I have actually been looking at products on sex-shops for a solution: we're talking ...hem hem ... butt plugs. I can't believe I'm writing this but, hey ,you can't see me blushing and hey, it's just a butt plug for frig's sake :eek: You know the sort with like a pumpy-uppy bulb-type thing? If I can get the inside to stretch then the outer ring should fall into place.
I'm sure there'll be a thread on Lit somewhere. Please don't start posting advice on butt-plugs here or I'd die :eek:
PM me k? :)
*shakes head* this is so humiliating but actually it could be really useful :eek:

*groans* Oh god - can you imagine in a couple of years time finding said device in the hands of another member of my family. This could go so so horribly wrong

Maybe I should Google to see if there's a legit medical device for this... with a fancy name?
 
A best friend is someone that will at your passing go to your house and clean the hard rive of embarrassing things and clear our your toy draw before your family finds them.
 
Speaking as a chronic over-sharer-- I love your reticence, it's just adorable. :cattail:
Sent you a PM
 
Pump-uppy updatey thing.
This will fail because, having consulted my GP, she pointed out that the bulb thing will slip to the weakest (and already widest) bit and stretch that, not the bit that needs attention. Also ( and I thought it best not to ask how she knew this ) they tend to expand like 'a lemon' shape not a cylinder one. I'd rather not have a lemon-shaped vag. The suggestion was to visit a sex shop for an in-between size dildo or to make Mr Bingley bigger.

We have already been falling over with laughter when Mum suggested putting a sock on it, or two…

*sigh*
This is all so undignified. I'm trying to see the funny side of it. :cool:
 
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stickygirl said:
We have already been falling over with laughter when Mum suggested putting a sock on it, or two…

*sigh*
This is all so undignified. I'm trying to see the funny side of it. :cool:
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I am reminded of:

In days of olde, when knights were bold, and rubbers weren't invented,
they wrapped their socks around their cocks and babies were prevented.
​

:D
 
stickygirl said:
Pump-uppy updatey thing.
This will fail because, having consulted my GP, she pointed out that the bulb thing will slip to the weakest (and already widest) bit and stretch that, not the bit that needs attention. Also ( and I thought it best not to ask how she knew this ) they tend to expand like 'a lemon' shape not a cylinder one. I'd rather not have a lemon-shaped vag. The suggestion was to visit a sex shop for an in-between size dildo or to make Mr Bingley bigger.

We have already been falling over with laughter when Mum suggested putting a sock on it, or two…

*sigh*
This is all so undignified. I'm trying to see the funny side of it. :cool:
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Undignified? Fiddlesticks! You're among friends and I can't speak for anyone else, but (and I say this with love, not malice) the way you describe your ongoing saga makes me smile. In my mind I picture you as a stand-up comedian doing a bit.
 
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