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Old 11-19-2013, 04:34 PM   #51
Stella_Omega
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1sha View Post
"Romantic" fiction has never been realistic. I don't see any reason that this one should be. Troubled bad boy changed by the love of a good virginal woman is the storyline in every single romance I've ever read. That's why I quit reading them.
I think many men feel they have a vested interest in BDSM. Other forms of romance don't impact them, and they are not around to complain.

Tangentially, I once had a guy tell me he hated Prince (the artist formerly known as) because he gave thigh-high boots a bad name. Women would react to this dude as if he would be able to talk dirty to them like Prince does in his songs.
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:58 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1sha View Post
"Romantic" fiction has never been realistic. I don't see any reason that this one should be. Troubled bad boy changed by the love of a good virginal woman is the storyline in every single romance I've ever read. That's why I quit reading them.
That was pretty much my point! lol

It's okay, we can share a point if you want.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:12 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
What makes you think he didn't try that "something else" anyway? The more mud they have to throw, the better the chance something will stick.



All BDSM? Not hardly. 50SoG still stigmatises a bunch of consensual BDSM activities. While romanticising abusive behaviour with very questionable consent. I don't want that becoming publicly acceptable, TYVM.
Thank you.

But don't push too hard here.

I forgot that Primalex is the alpha dom here.

We should all just bow and pay homage and cease are arguing.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:23 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primalex View Post
If you advertise yourself that way, it won't.

But of course you're just being an idiot.

The appeal of Gray was he could come on smooth. He did not say "I'm a sick fuck" he showed he was.

Trust me ugly, broke sadists can't inflict as much harm. They scare the women off with appearance only. Young girls do not romanticize obvious losers, only the losers behind a pretty package.

But I won't push with you. I know you're the alpha wolf here and that obviously means something to you.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:25 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
I forgot that Primalex is the alpha dom here.

We should all just bow and pay homage and cease are arguing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post

But of course you're just being an idiot.

But I won't push with you. I know you're the alpha wolf here and that obviously means something to you.
You know, the sympathy I had for your point of view disappears with every bit of whining you do because not everyone is bowing down and worshiping at the alter of your 'logic'. If you don't want to have a discussion, with different view points, maybe you should put that in your sig line so that the rest of us know to put you on ignore.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:59 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1sha View Post
"Romantic" fiction has never been realistic. I don't see any reason that this one should be. Troubled bad boy changed by the love of a good virginal woman is the storyline in every single romance I've ever read. That's why I quit reading them.
It's not about the realism, it's about the icky messages it sends. To be fair, I object to most romance books and romantic movies on the same grounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
I think many men feel they have a vested interest in BDSM. Other forms of romance don't impact them, and they are not around to complain.
I think it's more than that, Stella. Most romance novels don't enter the mainstream. I don't read them, but because of Fifty Shades's popularity, I know about this book. And there are a lot of people reading it who don't normally read romance novels, if only to see what the hype is about. So we're looking at a book that's getting a lot of exposure, which paints BDSM and romance in very ugly lights, and that's why people are complaining. Not just men, either. Actually, every article I've read (maybe four or five) about the awful that is Fifty Shades has been written by a woman.
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Old 11-19-2013, 06:13 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KinkyPan View Post
It's not about the realism, it's about the icky messages it sends. To be fair, I object to most romance books and romantic movies on the same grounds.
Ditto me.
Quote:

I think it's more than that, Stella. Most romance novels don't enter the mainstream. I don't read them, but because of Fifty Shades's popularity, I know about this book. And there are a lot of people reading it who don't normally read romance novels, if only to see what the hype is about. So we're looking at a book that's getting a lot of exposure, which paints BDSM and romance in very ugly lights, and that's why people are complaining. Not just men, either. Actually, every article I've read (maybe four or five) about the awful that is Fifty Shades has been written by a woman.
Yep. It's quite the odd phenom.

The thing that I keep coming back to though, is that it IS porn, and it was written by a woman for women's enjoyment-- and women did enjoy it, and that has to be acknowledged. Harlequin and Mills&Boon style romance plots are comfort food for thousands of women. It's a motherfucking shame that this one made the big news when there are so many other slightly less execrable porn romance efforts available for the hyping.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:12 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Ditto me.
Yep. It's quite the odd phenom.

The thing that I keep coming back to though, is that it IS porn, and it was written by a woman for women's enjoyment-- and women did enjoy it, and that has to be acknowledged. Harlequin and Mills&Boon style romance plots are comfort food for thousands of women. It's a motherfucking shame that this one made the big news when there are so many other slightly less execrable porn romance efforts available for the hyping.
I pretty much agree with all of this. But yeah, I'm still going to talk about how fucked up it is, because that's what I do when I see fucked up things. I'm all for porn made by women, for women, and for sex-positivity and making it okay for women to be open about the fact that we're sexual beings. But I feel like when the by-women, for-women porn is still sneakily misogynistic while framed in a manner that makes the misogyny seem acceptable... I don't have to be okay with it just because other women are getting something out of it.

(Stella, can I just say I really like the way you engage. You make valid, insightful, often opposing points in a respectful way, and I just wanted to make an aside and say from the posts I've read of yours I respect the hell out of you.)
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:46 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by KinkyPan View Post
I pretty much agree with all of this. But yeah, I'm still going to talk about how fucked up it is, because that's what I do when I see fucked up things. I'm all for porn made by women, for women, and for sex-positivity and making it okay for women to be open about the fact that we're sexual beings. But I feel like when the by-women, for-women porn is still sneakily misogynistic while framed in a manner that makes the misogyny seem acceptable... I don't have to be okay with it just because other women are getting something out of it.
I guess... I figure that they are getting something out of it, and that, too, has to be acknowledged. And maybe right now, for a lot of these women who have never openly read porn before, the hegemony is where they are.
yes, it sucks. I think, however, and it's far too easy to say and really difficult to do-- make more and better porn. I dearly wish I had half a handle on romance tropes, which I do not. In my world, two or more people hump like mindless monsters and then-- maybe intimacy happens as a result of the sex that keeps smashing them into each other. Not many people are comfortable with that dynamic. And it's hard to figure out where the plot reversals should happen.


Quote:
(Stella, can I just say I really like the way you engage. You make valid, insightful, often opposing points in a respectful way, and I just wanted to make an aside and say from the posts I've read of yours I respect the hell out of you.)
You should have been around a few years ago, OMG I could be such an asshole...
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:47 PM   #60
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I've never read 50 Shades of Grey and most likely won't see the movie. What I did see was the sex toy sites used the book to make sales of various items used in BDSM. I read a story here on lit called Culture Shock which spurred an interest in it. Then I read other BDSM stories, some good, some downright horrible. Amazing Grace was pretty good and showed a woman author who really had no clue what BDSM was until she was shown by what seemed to me to be a pretty good Dom but also showed me the need for honest communication between a Dom and his sub. I keep swaying from I think I am submissive to no I'm not. I also viewed some porn that was listed as BDSM. In the one there was so much blood flowing and I swear the end appeared to me she might have been dead or nearly dead. In one that was listed as a training first time sub that seemed to me the woman would have had to have a lot of BDSM info to have made it through the training. Looked like abusive not consensual. A person told me they were porn made by actors and not at all what BDSM was about. What I know of BDSM is from the stories, which I know are fiction. Yet there must be some fact in there. I also was led to a site which talked about forms listing what you had done, what you would consider doing, and what you absolutely would not do. Talked about safe words and first meetings. Some of which I have read about here in the forum. I also read where planned parenthood was teaching girls and boys as young as 12 that light BDSM was OK if they talked beforehand and agreed. In fact I could not believe what planned parenthood teaches our young girls and boys. Correct me if I'm wrong but 12 and 13 isn't old enough to make informed decisions regarding sex are they. It's wrong. I wasn't taught much more when I was growing up. It's a sin what I didn't know. The sex education in our country lacks a whole lot. Course in most cases the parents don't know a whole lot more. In a country that supports abortion without parental consent, birth-control for teen age girls from a school nurse rather than a doctor, and abortion on demand among other things, you would think they would offer good sex education. And what I saw at the planned parenthood site was not very good. Sometimes a combination of old wives tales mixed with some factual incite. Oh by the way you can't say clitoris without it getting bleeped out. I purchased a clit sucker and was supposed to write a review, but they wouldn't let me use the word clit or clitoris. Made no sense. I think if pre teens were taught properly there would be far fewer pregnant teens. Anyway back to 50 shades of grey, it sounds to me like someone who has more knowledge of the BDSM should write a similar book. From the stand point of a person who knew nothing of BDSM the site I was at that talked about the forms concerning things you would, might, and would not do and the preliminary things to be done before a Dom/sub relationship was entered into sounded a lot like things that would make a vanilla marriage better. I propose if the book 50 Shades of Grey is so bad that someone or a group of you should get together and write a similar book to set the record straight. If it doesn't happen there will be more misconceptions about BDSM out there. Just an idea from a beginner who doesn't know that much to begin with.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:44 PM   #61
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Never mind, I'm being grouchy.
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Last edited by graceanne : 11-20-2013 at 12:15 AM. Reason: used text speak :eek:
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:16 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
If you advertise yourself that way, it won't.

But of course you're just being an idiot.

The appeal of Gray was he could come on smooth. He did not say "I'm a sick fuck" he showed he was.

Trust me ugly, broke sadists can't inflict as much harm. They scare the women off with appearance only. Young girls do not romanticize obvious losers, only the losers behind a pretty package.

But I won't push with you. I know you're the alpha wolf here and that obviously means something to you.
Are you kidding me? You don't have to be rich and attractive to be charismatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graceanne View Post
You know, the sympathy I had for your point of view disappears with every bit of whining you do because not everyone is bowing down and worshiping at the alter of your 'logic'. If you don't want to have a discussion, with different view points, maybe you should put that in your sig line so that the rest of us know to put you on ignore.
Word.
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:21 AM   #63
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Are you kidding me? You don't have to be rich and attractive to be charismatic.
Just as a point of interest - people are more likely to be abused in low income households than not. Partly because of lack of resources and partly because of lack of education (which ties into the lack of resources).
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:26 AM   #64
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@Unicorn64;

1) Can you please insert some paragraph breaks, because it's next to impossible to read through that wall of text. But I feel compelled to cherry pick a few bits that are worthy of comment;

Quote:
I keep swaying from I think I am submissive to no I'm not.
You might enjoy the essay linked in my signature. It might help you a little bit, figuring that stuff out for yourself

Quote:
A person told me they were porn made by actors and not at all what BDSM was about. What I know of BDSM is from the stories, which I know are fiction. Yet there must be some fact in there.
And there is some fact in there-- but what we might call a donut truth, there's a big hole in the middle of the facts. That hole is the part that makes many things feasible and moral instead of abusive and reprehensible. I'm glad you found better information.
Quote:
I also read where planned parenthood was teaching girls and boys as young as 12 that light BDSM was OK if they talked beforehand and agreed. In fact I could not believe what planned parenthood teaches our young girls and boys. Correct me if I'm wrong but 12 and 13 isn't old enough to make informed decisions regarding sex are they.
When you were a kid, you knew about a lot of things grownups did-- drive cars, drink and smoke, cuss, go into the army, run for president-- that children could not do. And you knew that when you were old enough, you could do those things because you, too, would be a grownup.

Why should sex be any different?

Telling 12 year olds that sex exists, and that some practices are a little more complex than missionary humping is in no way the same as forcing them to make those choices at that age. It's letting them know, in the shocking absence of all information, that there is something to know about, and there are some rules to go along with it.

And I, at age ten, already knew. Lots of us knew. i wasn't doing anything about it-- but I knew. There weren't any rules out there when I was a teen, and I sure wish there had been.
Quote:
In a country that supports abortion without parental consent, birth-control for teen age girls from a school nurse rather than a doctor, and abortion on demand among other things, you would think they would offer good sex education.
Well, some factions support those things, and other factions have control of our education system. Don't get me started.
Quote:
From the stand point of a person who knew nothing of BDSM the site I was at that talked about the forms concerning things you would, might, and would not do and the preliminary things to be done before a Dom/sub relationship was entered into sounded a lot like things that would make a vanilla marriage better.
Many of us think so too
Quote:
I propose if the book 50 Shades of Grey is so bad that someone or a group of you should get together and write a similar book to set the record straight. If it doesn't happen there will be more misconceptions about BDSM out there.
Many have tried, baby-- many have tried. Why 50 Shades got the hype, nobody really understands that...
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Old 11-20-2013, 03:43 AM   #65
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I also read where planned parenthood was teaching girls and boys as young as 12 that light BDSM was OK if they talked beforehand and agreed. In fact I could not believe what planned parenthood teaches our young girls and boys.
Have you confirmed that PP really is teaching that material to 12-year-olds?

I googled "planned parenthood teaching about bdsm" and found stuff like this anti-PP site, which says:

Quote:
One example of deviant behavior is BDSM..., and Planned Parenthood of New England and Planned Parenthood of Hudson Peconic are two affiliates pushing teens and young people to expand their sexual horizons to incorporate it. Planned Parenthood of New England sponsors the website called "A Naked Notion with Laci Green," and her November 15, 2012, video feature was "Getting Kinky - BDSM 101."... Planned Parenthood of Hudson Peconic has a flyer announcing the "Fifty Shades of Safe" training which, "assists Health, Physical Education and Family and Consumer Science teachers in meeting NYS Education Standards 1, 2 and 3." That's right; Planned Parenthood trains the teachers to help your child explore the magical world of BDSM. They will learn to, "Facilitate a lesson plan to teenagers and young adults on healthy relationships and appropriate communication/negotiation skills."
Referenced material:
50 Shades of Safe
A Naked Notion - BDSM 101

As quoted above, the "50 Shades of Safe" flyer is about sex-ed for "teenagers and young adults". I certainly think some teenagers are old enough to learn about BDSM, in particular communication and negotiation - those are useful skills in ANY relationship. No mention of 12- or 13-year-olds.

The "Naked Notion" site... aside from being a PP-sponsored site rather than actual PP content, I don't see anything to suggest that it's intended as a school resource. PP caters to grown-ups too.

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but 12 and 13 isn't old enough to make informed decisions regarding sex are they.
Not usually, no. But teaching sex-ed doesn't force kids to have sex earlier. It just means that whenever they do have sex, their decisions will be more informed.

Quote:
Anyway back to 50 shades of grey, it sounds to me like someone who has more knowledge of the BDSM should write a similar book. From the stand point of a person who knew nothing of BDSM the site I was at that talked about the forms concerning things you would, might, and would not do and the preliminary things to be done before a Dom/sub relationship was entered into sounded a lot like things that would make a vanilla marriage better. I propose if the book 50 Shades of Grey is so bad that someone or a group of you should get together and write a similar book to set the record straight. If it doesn't happen there will be more misconceptions about BDSM out there. Just an idea from a beginner who doesn't know that much to begin with.
Like Stella says, there are plenty of better books already written (both fiction and non-fiction), they just didn't get the same publicity :-/
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:02 AM   #66
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A question for anyone who has read the trilogy:

My master and I read the first third of the first book together to see what the fuss was about. We laughed at the poor writing and unbelievable sexual skills of this supposedly naive, inexperienced virgin. So we didn't get very far and certainly didn't read the later 2 novels.

I know the story progresses to bring to light Christian Grey's motivations for his lifestyle (dealing with an abusive past?). But in which book is that revealed?

As for dreading the movie?
Well, I don't plan on seeing it (and I know my master has no plans on watching it). But I am a masochist and will probably end up watching it just to see what the fuss is about. After all, I put myself through the movie "The Last Airbender" to see how it compared to the Avatar tv show so my masochistic movie selections seem to be a trend for me
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:36 AM   #67
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After all, I put myself through the movie "The Last Airbender" to see how it compared to the Avatar tv show so my masochistic movie selections seem to be a trend for me
Yeah, I did too. I was SO annoyed - but not surprised. They were trying to fit all of book one into a couple hour movie - OF COURSE they botched it.
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:43 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
@Unicorn64;

1) Can you please insert some paragraph breaks, because it's next to impossible to read through that wall of text. But I feel compelled to cherry pick a few bits that are worthy of comment;
Awesome, polite way of asking. I tried to think of a polite way to ask, and rewrote it three times, then just deleted it cause no matter what I put it looked grouchy to me. The problems with the written word and all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
Have you confirmed that PP really is teaching that material to 12-year-olds?
Yeah, I'm not a huge PP fan, and I just don't see that. For one thing, how often do twelve year olds go to PP? It's not like PP goes into schools.

Quote:
Referenced material:
50 Shades of Safe
A Naked Notion - BDSM 101

As quoted above, the "50 Shades of Safe" flyer is about sex-ed for "teenagers and young adults". I certainly think some teenagers are old enough to learn about BDSM, in particular communication and negotiation - those are useful skills in ANY relationship. No mention of 12- or 13-year-olds.
If a teenager is doing stuff that means they need birth control, it's probably a good idea to discuss kink-safety with them. I did with my god-daughter when I found out she and her boyfriend were enjoying some kinky activities, and I did with my sister when she was 15 after I had to clear a crap ton of spyware off her computer, cause she was looking at bdsm-related porn.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:25 PM   #69
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I know the story progresses to bring to light Christian Grey's motivations for his lifestyle (dealing with an abusive past?). But in which book is that revealed?
I read the entire trilogy, first because of the hype (well after the first waves) then in the naive hope that it might get better, then with the same morbid curiosity that compels people to slow down for car wrecks on the highway.

The "mystery" of Grey's motivations is gradually revealed through all three books, rather like peeling a pungent onion. In all fairness I thought the process was reasonably realistic, given his reticence and her inability to ask the right questions (due to her inexperience). There are a few a-ha moments after an event or two, and a lot of just putting the clues together to see how they fit.
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:02 PM   #70
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Ok, I'm probably going to regret throwing in my opinion, but here it is.

Haven't read 50 Shades of Grey, I don't plan on reading it. I've had enough badly written erotica to last me a lifetime. I also won't see the movie, because as far as I'm concerned it'll just be porn and I prefer my porn written.

That said, to assume that women are too stupid to understand the difference between fantasy and real life is ... well, sexist. I've read a crap ton of romance and crap ton of badly written erotica (most of it here on literotica) and rarely is any of it realistic and yet, somehow, I still don't think a man on a black horse is going to come save me from my life or drudgery - neither do I think I'd actually ENJOY some of the stuff I read that still gets me off in the privacy of my room. Hell, I LOVE fantasy and mythology, but so far I'm pretty sure that Zeus isn't gonna rape my pretty daughter.

Will some people be drawn in by posers? Likely - but then 'good girls' (and from experience, good boys, too) have been getting drawn in by assholes since the beginning of time, and they'll continue to be drawn in under the misapprehension that 's/he can be changed' or s/he just 'needs love' (excuse me while I gag). The truth is that people who are taken in by the 'bad boy' or 'wild child' don't need encouragement, and they will be warned off repeatedly - and they'll STILL believe that they can change the other person. They, and only they, are responsible for their naivety, not fantasy books. And men will continue to take advantage of women (and women of men), and they ALSO are the only ones responsible for their actions - not their own abusers and not this book.

So, no - I'm not looking forward to this movie coming out. But not because it's going to confuse the week minds of innocent women, but just cause I think it was a badly written book and will be badly acted porn.

This.

Also, where I sit? Sorry, but hetero f/M - yawn. What else is new? Hetero femsubs will have one more shitty book to try to warp into some semblence of hot, hetero vanillas will have one more reason to pat themsevles on the back for being "out there" and the rest of us will continue to have to make our own media out of six cents and a dream.

This is just one more reason for people having more or less conventional sex and conventional fantasies to have the limelight even more. Whatever. My life with go on completely unchanged, and I will have no more images that live remotely on my planet to relate to.

I get the consolation of a Mistress Heather episode being anything slightly less than total dreck. Um, wow.
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:51 PM   #71
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Also, where I sit? Sorry, but hetero f/M - yawn. What else is new? Hetero femsubs will have one more shitty book to try to warp into some semblence of hot, hetero vanillas will have one more reason to pat themsevles on the back for being "out there" and the rest of us will continue to have to make our own media out of six cents and a dream.
Thanks, this helped me crystallise some thoughts: we've been talking about whether 50SoG is going to help make BDSM more acceptable to the mainstream, but the mainstream isn't the only group I'd like acceptance from and it's not necessarily the priority.

For instance, there's a significant division within feminism about whether BDSM is an individual freedom or a tool and symptom of abusive power structures - f/M is the easiest to fit within that narrative, but you can shoehorn other permutations in too, if you work at it.

That quite often presents dilemmas like "do I support this candidate who has some really enlightened ideas about some things but also thinks I'm a sick fuck whose proclivities need to be stamped out?"

Even if 50SoG makes BDSM more palatable to the people who are groovy with f/M power dynamics and don't lose a lot of sleep over issues of consent, I doubt it's going to help close that particular rift.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:11 PM   #72
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When Twilight was all the rage, I didn't read it, though a lot of my friends did. When I said it didn't sound like my cup of tea, I was too busy, and I'd heard that some of the messages were disturbing... I got told off for 'not being open minded enough'.. and I ended up watching Twilight with one of them because she said that once I tried it, I'd be sure to like it. I fell asleep 'before the exciting part' - her words. I asked 'the credits?'.

The thing is that with these phenomena, if for whatever reason, it doesn't resonate with you, it can be a little ostracizing. It wasn't like I frothed at the mouth whenever it was mentioned, or I actively went out of my way to hate it, or anything like that. Just tried to change the subject. In their eyes, it was like I was 'asexual'/'not open minded'/'not fun' than I found Twilight boring... but that's possibly because I prefer to keep what I do like private.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:37 PM   #73
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Oh, I definitely have had the experience where some completely non-kinked straight person wants to actually talk about or refer to SOG, which puts me into an awkward position.

I mean how does one float the possibility that, you know...yeah I kind of like to be Christian Gray....without stopping the conversation with nice 60 year old infusion nurses dead in tracks?
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:15 PM   #74
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Oh, I definitely have had the experience where some completely non-kinked straight person wants to actually talk about or refer to SOG, which puts me into an awkward position.

I mean how does one float the possibility that, you know...yeah I kind of like to be Christian Gray....without stopping the conversation with nice 60 year old infusion nurses dead in tracks?
Yeah ... my sil read and loved the books. I think she thought I was shocked because of my religion - no, I just didn't know how to say that it wasn't very accurate.
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:38 PM   #75
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I read the entire trilogy, first because of the hype (well after the first waves) then in the naive hope that it might get better, then with the same morbid curiosity that compels people to slow down for car wrecks on the highway.

The "mystery" of Grey's motivations is gradually revealed through all three books, rather like peeling a pungent onion. In all fairness I thought the process was reasonably realistic, given his reticence and her inability to ask the right questions (due to her inexperience). There are a few a-ha moments after an event or two, and a lot of just putting the clues together to see how they fit.
Do you think you could save me slogging through the books and just tell us all WTF his issue is? I've read a few chapters ( honestly, that was all I could take) and he seems to have a thing about wasting food. Maybe some sort of shitty childhood where wasting food was a HUGE no-no?

I may be a BIT of a masochist, but not THAT much of a masochist that I'll willingly read the entire damn series, especially not when I have much better things waiting to be read on my bookshelf.
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