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Old 03-20-2013, 09:26 AM   #1
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Pilfering, Plundering, Plagarism, and Cliche

I came across a passage that suggested that Demure may have pilfered a scene from one of mine. That one of mine plundered Dante. What did I plunder? Not much, title (reworked), name of inspirational character (Beatrice), and the fact it was in three parts. The mood may have come from Baudelaire (My Beatrice), the direction (down) from Milton, but the decour was furnished by Dali, Van Gogh, a 1,000 black velvet paintings and a 50's do-wop band. Her comment suggested to me that she was familiar with The Divine Comedy.
If this is true Demure, what do I have to say? Thanks for the comment and I am honoured.

Who does this pilfering and plundering? Any writer that reads. Who objects? Ersatz purists and writers that don't read, catch that? Writers that don't read?
Where do these people do their stealing? Common terminology, otherwise known as cliche, legally there is nothing wrong with that, even though some of you do it so often that cumulatively it amounts to Grand Theft.

So if you pilfer from a peer, leave a comment give them a 5 and it's fair game. If you pilfer a well turned phrase you might want to think about giving them credit.

Plagiarism is something else.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:28 AM   #2
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So why did I object to Kokshur's Betsy and Veronica, and Wolfies murder of Shakespeare? Both probably both took marginal ideas that I introduced here, where did I get these ideas? I stole them. I objected because jokes get old, fast. And you two beat it to death. And neither of you two are noted for "commentary" on other folks material. i.e. they both suffer from the self absorbed me-ism that seems to infect so many of the so-called poets here. I don't mean to just tee-off on just these two poor souls.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:41 PM   #3
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I've stolen from you, the polish guy, tzara, angeline, Jamison, unpredictablebijou from what I can recall. Poetry lends itself to thievery much easier than prose.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:35 PM   #4
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I swiped Tzars's 'chocolate reeds' but linked the phrase in the poem if anyone looked close enough... Chocolate reeds...yummy!
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:48 PM   #5
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Everyone pilfers and pillages, but if you take one or more lines word-for-word from someone else and don't attribute you are lying to yourself about your abilities and being a lazy writer.

Everyone riffs on what they admire in others' poems. To rephrase things or even use a similar (or same) formatting or theme is done all the time. I am often inspired by others' poems here; it's one of the reasons I love this forum. Anyway if you aren't thinking about what you like in other poems and how you'd adapt it in your own, then you're not reading enough. 12 and I are in total agreement on that one.

I think I've stolen more themes or moods or techniques--all ideas--from others here than I have actual words (aside from when we've done just that for challenges). I might riff on a phrase I read, but my intent would be to reframe it somehow to make it my own. When I do want to use something word-for-word I ask permission first (if it's a poem from here) or I attribute the line(s) (if I don't know the poet).

I don't care if people steal from me as long as it's not word-for-word lines. A word or two is fine--no one has copyright of a phrase--but more really is stealing and bad form. Mostly though it's bad for the poet who doesn't try to make something better or different from it.

The only occasion I'd not attribute would be when using something so obviously famous that everyone knows it already, like

out out damned spot

or some such.

We've had poems stolen from Lit and posted elsewhere under someone else's name. Pathetic, eh?
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Everyone pilfers and pillages...
but only if you read can you pilfer and plunder better, pillage may be a covert reference to the starter of this thread, which I also do.
anyway the reason for this thread
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
but only if you read can you pilfer and plunder better, pillage may be a covert reference to the starter of this thread, which I also do.
anyway the reason for this thread
Hah. I guess I do think of pillaging in relation to you (a la Godzilla), but I do think it fondly. We're not always agreed on methods of aid and instruction, but I do think we are on the need to read at least ten times as much for every poem one writes. And also on learning the art of commenting.

Sometimes I think you make it unnecessarily more difficult because you want readers to think about sonic choices and how they affect lines when most newbies don't even know what assonance or alliteration is. Maybe I'm wrong about that, just a feeling I have.

One thing I want to do is update the "read me first" thread which I know has broken links and hasn't been updated in years. Anyway one part of that thread was my semi-failed (imo) previous attempt to offer guidelines on commenting on poems. That is, first and foremost, the need to explain why one does or doesn't like what they read and what to look at in a poem to figure out that why. I was thinking of starting maybe an advice thread, something where we ask poets here to give one piece of advice at a time and, ultimately, pillage and plunder that thread to update the the material on how to comment. Whaddaya think? (And I'm throwing that question out to anyone, not just 1201).
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
<snip>I was thinking of starting maybe an advice thread, something where we ask poets here to give one piece of advice at a time and, ultimately, pillage and plunder that thread to update the the material on how to comment. Whaddaya think? (And I'm throwing that question out to anyone, not just 1201).
How to be a part of a vibrant poetry community even though beset by masturbatory demons and fetishistic minions? Love it and will try to contribute when I have something of worth to add.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champagne1982 View Post
How to be a part of a vibrant poetry community even though beset by masturbatory demons and fetishistic minions? Love it and will try to contribute when I have something of worth to add.
We have all, collectively, learned a great deal about how to offer meaningful feedback and it would be good to try to get it all in one place. I probably won't start it today though. I have a house full of teenagers this weekend and miles to go before I sleep.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:54 PM   #10
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If anyone wants some fascinating reading on this subject, google, "Helen Keller plagarism."
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:40 PM   #11
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The line between inspiration gleaned from another's work amd the three Ps is woefully thin it seems.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bronzeage View Post
If anyone wants some fascinating reading on this subject, google, "Helen Keller plagarism."
Also in 1903, Mark Twain described the controversy as "owlishly idiotic and grotesque".[11]


Cryptomnesia

Famous case George Harrison's My Sweet Lord

Realistically it doesn't apply here, somebody catches it.
Once I was able to find some of my work by a unique phrase. Often I would check. I had a poem that had the grim reaper with a Swiss Army Scythe. I posted it and then checked 8 hits on google, drawings and a story. And mentioned it. Some anon took that as an excuse to zap me.

That is not Plagiarism, folks, but it sure as hell wasn't a Cliche.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Hah. I guess I do think of pillaging in relation to you (a la Godzilla), but I do think it fondly. We're not always agreed on methods of aid and instruction, but I do think we are on the need to read at least ten times as much for every poem one writes. And also on learning the art of commenting.

Sometimes I think you make it unnecessarily more difficult because you want readers to think about sonic choices and how they affect lines when most newbies don't even know what assonance or alliteration is. Maybe I'm wrong about that, just a feeling I have.

One thing I want to do is update the "read me first" thread which I know has broken links and hasn't been updated in years. Anyway one part of that thread was my semi-failed (imo) previous attempt to offer guidelines on commenting on poems. That is, first and foremost, the need to explain why one does or doesn't like what they read and what to look at in a poem to figure out that why. I was thinking of starting maybe an advice thread, something where we ask poets here to give one piece of advice at a time and, ultimately, pillage and plunder that thread to update the the material on how to comment. Whaddaya think? (And I'm throwing that question out to anyone, not just 1201).
A. At least. That has been persistent advice from the bulk of good writers.
B. I don't know, most definitions are easily found on any poetry site. Level three thread is just something that I see, with specifics to back up the ideas, these are ideas that the writer may not have even consciously thought of. They worked on me so some of these I will put to use. I do think someone is reading it.
To put it in perspective, forms where once someone's idea.
C. Difficult, everyone looks for something different, on one level some here would think the "barney song" with a couple of sucks and fucks in it, would be the ultimate in erotic poetry. And on another preference is given to form. But basically most are surface observations. We need more Senna Jawas, jtserras.
D. Don't try any of the stunts I pull. I once advised a newb to check out greenmountaineer, follow him if he is trying for generally acceptable poetry AND NOT TRY what I am doing. The newbs next poem had 12 syllable lines, which are probably the most unstable lines in English.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bflagsst View Post
I've stolen from you, the polish guy, tzara, angeline, Jamison, unpredictablebijou from what I can recall. Poetry lends itself to thievery much easier than prose.
the polish guy? one phrase constitutes 50% of his poems, thus it is a significant proportion... thus Plagiarism
no change the lawyers show up

me? but you forgot where you got it and you forgot where you put it...I hope it wasn't fucking pink I was saving that for my illaterative verse

Poetry lends itself to thievery much easier than prose.
that's because poetry is condensed and easier to palm and pocket it, which is why everyone saw through my cheap rip-off of melville

A Whale of a Tale

Call me Ismail
I ain't no fish meal
Unlike Ahab
Who wound up as crab-cake
and the start of Zelig
but that would make the poem fatter
and there's way too much on the platter

hey that's moby dick!

Yeh I stole it, and summarized it, now you don't have to read it.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:05 PM   #15
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Alright, this bothers me, from the anon

is it supposed to be

leaves of grass, at least you rip off the masters
and azurite is a mineral not a colour!
scimitar and pearl is ripped from Longfellow
far from home and cold is a rephrase of Gollum's poem from Lord of the Rings

I responded, in my usual way;

but

the Longfellow part, I read quite a bit of Longfellow, but Longfellow wrote quite a bit more than I read
Was Hiawatha packin a Scimitar, Miles Standish, Paul Revere or Evangeline? I have read others, I just don't remember them.

far from home and cold is a rephrase of Gollum's poem from Lord of the Rings

it must have been a short poem, or do you mean rephrase of a phrase?

if anybody can help me out with
scimitar and pearl from Longfellow

just to satisfy that curious bone
that was shoved up my ass by the anon

otherwise it is a non issue for me

bye, bye H
hello sweet duress
I think I'm gonna cry
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Sometimes I think you make it unnecessarily more difficult because you want readers to think about sonic choices and how they affect lines when most newbies don't even know what assonance or alliteration is. Maybe I'm wrong about that, just a feeling I have.
you may have noticed I've changed the sales pitch
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
you may have noticed I've changed the sales pitch
Lol. You know I did and it was just yesterday. And I rushed right in to agree with you.

Your anons are like the anti-fan club. If only we knew who they were we could give them t-shirts and a newsletter.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:49 PM   #18
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Lol. You know I did and it was just yesterday. And I rushed right in to agree with you.

Your anons are like the anti-fan club. If only we knew who they were we could give them t-shirts and a newsletter.
sell,sell, lit could have a lucrative side biz, the way I piss people off.

what should I expect?
the anti-poet should have an anti-fan club

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No results found for "scimitar of pearl".

About 580,000 results scimitar of pearl (without quotes):
means combination of Scimitar and Pearl

my response
much ado about nothing
which, that, I'm sure I stole

I can hardly wait to see the comments on my anti-sonnet, which I hope to finish in my lifetime.
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Old 07-17-2013, 06:22 AM   #19
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Just to go back to the original post for a minute. Is your problem that Demure hasn't read dante, milton, moby dick?
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Old 07-17-2013, 06:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
bye, bye H
hello sweet duress
I think I'm gonna cry


as to the 3 P's:

i tend to find individual words or the idea behind a phrase is what i tend to use as 'finder's keeper's' - and they come almost exclusively from novels rather than poems. there are some very poetically-phrased prose passages out there, some fabulous imagery.

the exception was a line i am sure came from a byron poem, but have since been unable to find it. i did acknowledge where i thought it came from - "where vague and shuffling demons danced" - but it might be a case of a phrase he used that inspired an image which translated as that line. damned if i know, now

as already mentioned, riffing is another creature, using the well-known line from a write, a song, a sit-com either directly or (as you did above) dropping in your own twist on the words to leave a smile for those who recognise it.

yada yada . . . in otherwords, i agree with others here that a nod to the origins of a phrase is good manners except where the phrase is so well-known that's unnecessary and can be read as something of a tribute or, if it's really bad, a poetic 'cringe'.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by bflagsst View Post
Just to go back to the original post for a minute. Is your problem that Demure hasn't read dante, milton, moby dick?
moby dick wasn't in the first post
you are leading where with this?
My guess, both you and Demure probably are better read in Literature
than I, that is not my forte.

Having said that and since you showed, perhaps you can explain to me just what the anon was referring to. Here it is again:

is it supposed to be

leaves of grass, at least you rip off the masters
and azurite is a mineral not a colour!
scimitar and pearl is ripped from Longfellow
far from home and cold is a rephrase of Gollum's poem from Lord of the Rings

so bombs away, bflagsst

Whitman, I don't recollect reading much of Leaves of Grass (maybe I was stoned)
and if it was I deserve a triple A for condensation

Longfellow bothers me, but I doubt it.

and I'm not going to go look for LOR, just to see if Gollum said the same phrases, they are common usage, you made that point in your comment.


And since you asked:
the problem I have with Demure is the same problem I have with you, world of talent, but L-I-T-E on the comments.

Now if you or anybody else is wondering, why that did so well, a simple trick, very high degree of repetitions with shifts, i.e. for the most part what is in the tool box.
Which I probably stole from Shakespeare.

If anybody is interested, I'll be happy to parse this,which would be easier since I know what I did.

in a week when the contest is over
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:09 PM   #22
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Did you know you can Plagiarise yourself? I used to write quizzes for a certain website and I wrote one based on an article I'd had published years ago. Seems someone doing the quiz had read it and reported me to the site for plagiarism ...... upshot of it was I got banned! Even after I explained it all, it was like talking to a brick wall. Plagiarism is plagiarism ...... end of
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:03 PM   #23
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Just to go back to the original post for a minute. Is your problem that Demure hasn't read dante, milton, moby dick?
http://www.literotica.com/p/renee-3
I'm missing something here, your alt's comment?
BTW, this mention of alt. is not an outing, but previously published information
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:07 PM   #24
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Did you know you can Plagiarise yourself? I used to write quizzes for a certain website and I wrote one based on an article I'd had published years ago. Seems someone doing the quiz had read it and reported me to the site for plagiarism ...... upshot of it was I got banned! Even after I explained it all, it was like talking to a brick wall. Plagiarism is plagiarism ...... end of
did you sue yourself for damages?
mic.. mou..!
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:26 PM   #25
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Did you know you can Plagiarise yourself? I used to write quizzes for a certain website and I wrote one based on an article I'd had published years ago. Seems someone doing the quiz had read it and reported me to the site for plagiarism ...... upshot of it was I got banned! Even after I explained it all, it was like talking to a brick wall. Plagiarism is plagiarism ...... end of
This is the chief reason I have all my work under the same name. I have friends who create a different user name for every site they join. There is always some prick in the crowd who has to google the first line of every poem.
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Quote:
Originally posted by LostBaby
My beloved is perfect. He is strong, smart, well read, can & will do anything, tender, and totally adores me. The only thing that could make him better is if he was freak'n wealthy beyond words.
On the floor of a small room near the city wall, they found the source of the many fragments of wisdom this civilization had left the world.http://bronzeageworks.blogspot.com/
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