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Old 03-27-2013, 04:18 PM   #101
Netzach
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Yo, Stella, check out "Ethical Culture" if you never have, that's pretty much the MO.

For me, spirituality is kind of like masturbation. I don't want to do it with other people around, I don't want them doing it with me, so the secular and atheist lets hang in a basement and have coffee and talk Big Picture is just as yuck, (not politically but personally) but that's just me.
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In the spirit of equal time, sites like Huffington Post should have sections for male anatomy hanging out instead of just the idiotic celebrity “side boob” and “nip slip” camera ops. I have no idea what that would be like to have a camera in my face at every turn, looking for “the” shot. I know what some of you are saying. “Then why do they wear clothes like that unless they want those photos taken?” I don’t know what to tell ya. Perhaps just don’t take the fuckin picture? Evolve? I don’t know. - Henry Rollins
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:25 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by satindesire View Post
Thankfully, I've seen the number of homophobic religious people drop like stones in the last few years, so much so that many churches are openly supporting gay people. So like all human things, it'll continue to evolve and grow and become better, and the finger pointing can stop ON BOTH SIDES.
You can't equate the finger pointing of people on the margins and the institution that has for thousands of years more or less taken a die and don't exist position, sorry. All the potlucking and rainbow flags outside the welcome and open Lutheran congregations don't negate the rights of gay people to own their experiences in the past. The religious don't get to decide when we "get over it."

My FIL is part of one of these awesome congregations - it's great to see progress and development, but it's optional and ground-up it's not top-down.
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In the spirit of equal time, sites like Huffington Post should have sections for male anatomy hanging out instead of just the idiotic celebrity “side boob” and “nip slip” camera ops. I have no idea what that would be like to have a camera in my face at every turn, looking for “the” shot. I know what some of you are saying. “Then why do they wear clothes like that unless they want those photos taken?” I don’t know what to tell ya. Perhaps just don’t take the fuckin picture? Evolve? I don’t know. - Henry Rollins

Last edited by Netzach : 03-27-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:34 PM   #103
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I can't determine that none of my tax dollars go to drone attacks, it's true.

But I can not shop anthropologie, I can drive by Chick Fil A, and I can pass up a tithe till shit gets straight if I went to temple and they were being assholes.

Frankly I don't go to temple because I can't cope with cheerleading bulldozing people off their own land. I've felt the temptation to go and just press the flesh and see what's up. Yes, cool shit goes down there, but seriously.
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In the spirit of equal time, sites like Huffington Post should have sections for male anatomy hanging out instead of just the idiotic celebrity “side boob” and “nip slip” camera ops. I have no idea what that would be like to have a camera in my face at every turn, looking for “the” shot. I know what some of you are saying. “Then why do they wear clothes like that unless they want those photos taken?” I don’t know what to tell ya. Perhaps just don’t take the fuckin picture? Evolve? I don’t know. - Henry Rollins

Last edited by Netzach : 03-27-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:43 PM   #104
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*snip* it's great to see progress and development, but it's optional and ground-up it's not top-down.
Real, lasting, revolutionary change is always ground up.

I'm one of the most anti religious establishment types you'll ever meet, but even I'm willing to concede that at least some of the people are trying to make things right.

They gotta start somewhere, and fighting against 1800 years of ingrained doctrine has gotta count for something.

For ostrasised, alienated, non equal in the eyes of the law people now, it's too little too late. But in 100 years, there's the possibility that the great grandkids will wonder what the big deal about the whole thing was.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:57 PM   #105
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I'm praying for the day the Catholic church becomes progressive and humanist.
I'm seriously wondering whether some sort of schism is approaching. I have a lot of Catholic family and quiet a few friends, and the rift between where they stand and the official party line is immense.

And yet both major political parties are strongly influenced by the party line, to the point where neither one has found the guts to position itself in favour of something that 60%+ of Australians support :-/
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:31 PM   #106
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KoPilot, I talk a hella lot about politics and the oncoming fascist state-- on Huntington, on facebook, on craigslist, on daily Kos.

At this moment we are talking about how religion impacts our sex lives, and why some of us don't want it in the bedroom with us.

here is what I wrote about that particular incident.

Quote:
Confess, Repent, Pay Penance? Really?

Journal Entry | 7 months ago

I want to express my anger and dismay regarding this year's theme choice for the SoCal Leatherwoman's Sash event on OCT 6. I think it is entirely disrespectful to showcase a single fetish this way, at a public event that is, in fact, about something entirely different.

For myself, I'm an atheist. I detest religion, I spend incredible amounts of energy keeping it out of my life via political and social pressure, and it dries my cunt right up to even think about religion in my sex life.

There may well be other people who consider religion an actually sacred part of their lives, not meant to be lampooned in this fashion.

I have been handed bar-cards that featured 'nuns' and crosses etc. I throw them away mostly without reading them, figuring that this kink is not my kink and there is no need for me to go to a party that features a kink that I don't enjoy. I want to make it clear though, that my silence about why I have not been there-- Is in no way tacit assent.

That's why I am writing this essay, because I was told that a "casual survey" of the theme brought up "only one person" who said they were uncomfortable. If the casual survey had included me, there would have been "only two people." (I have a feeling that the October event is exactly the bar-card I tossed, and -- if I HAD read it, which I didn't want to HAVE to do-- I would have known about this notion soon enough to maybe point out what a bad idea it is.)

As I say, I can choose to not be at parties that feature play with religion, I don't need to appear and tell people how disgusting I think it is. That's not my business. Your kink is your pleasure.

But SCLW sash competition is not just any old party. It's community-inclusive, and the sash wearer represents all women in BDSM. Including the women who have a deep dislike for religion, AND the women who have a deep sense of the sacred. As a matter of fact, the leather woman sash does not represent drag troups, gay men, vanilla anybody, or shih-tzu puppies. All of which are lovely people, but they all have their own representation.

I should NOT have to make a difficult decision about whether or not to attend a public event-- even a political event, in a sense-- event that is meant to be for me and people like me.

Moreover, I cannot think of many things that are further from the Leather ethos than religious dogma. Leather style BDSM is secular and humanistic. It teaches a tribal authority, human being to human being. That's one of the biggest reasons why I call myself a Leatherwoman.

I hope that 2013 theme will be "Welcome Back to Leather." I think we need that.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:40 PM   #107
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You can't equate the finger pointing of people on the margins and the institution that has for thousands of years more or less taken a die and don't exist position, sorry. All the potlucking and rainbow flags outside the welcome and open Lutheran congregations don't negate the rights of gay people to own their experiences in the past. The religious don't get to decide when we "get over it."

My FIL is part of one of these awesome congregations - it's great to see progress and development, but it's optional and ground-up it's not top-down.

I'm not equating it,
I'm saying that any amount of finger pointing and blaming without working towards eliminating the problems is useless. Hatred for something does nothing to solve the issue.

But look at what people like yourself and Stella are saying on this thread. Here are several positive examples of religious people coming forward and openly stating that The Church has severe flaws and has done severe damage and needs to change, yet you guys are still acting like we're not allowed to be upset when we get treated like bad people for being religious, regardless of us reaching out and trying to make a difference towards bettering the wrongs that have been done. Shit, I feel like talking to you guys is like talking to a brick wall. Not every religious person is a bad person out to get Teh Gheys, so a little tolerance on BOTH sides would be nice.

I FULLY REALIZE that The Church has done horrible HORRIBLE things. Please don't act like we're sitting here saying you're not allowed to feel bad about it. Guess what? WE FEEL BAD ABOUT IT TOO!

I hate doing this, you know? Every single time I get into a conversation about religion on this board, someone invariably always tells me that I'm not allowed to tell people to "get over" what has happened and is happening with The Church and laws, and I just want to make this absolutely crystal clear. I have never said or even implied that anyone should ever "get over" injustice. Please don't treat the faithful people that are working towards bridging the gap between us like this, you're not solving the issues by slapping the hand we're extending. I literally dread religious conversation on this board and often avoid them just for this reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
I'm seriously wondering whether some sort of schism is approaching. I have a lot of Catholic family and quiet a few friends, and the rift between where they stand and the official party line is immense.

And yet both major political parties are strongly influenced by the party line, to the point where neither one has found the guts to position itself in favour of something that 60%+ of Australians support :-/
I've talked with the hubs about this a few times, about how we both feel a major "Martin Luther" reformation-like rift forming within The Church as more and more faithful step away from the superconservative Church that won't support human rights. I feel like as there's been more and more exposure in the media, people are seeing the flaws in the system for what they are, unfair and painful...I think that the congregation is starting to understand that they can't sit back and watch other human beings suffer. They're starting to step forward and it's causing ripples everywhere. It's exponential growth, it'll continue towards marriage equality and other LGBT rights issues that need to be resolved.

It's really easy for the faithful to sit back and say, well, I don't do stuff like that...but it doesn't change the laws when everyone just sits. Now people are standing, working towards change. I've seen it coming, it's just a matter of time now.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:34 PM   #108
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I've talked with the hubs about this a few times, about how we both feel a major "Martin Luther" reformation-like rift forming within The Church as more and more faithful step away from the superconservative Church that won't support human rights. I feel like as there's been more and more exposure in the media, people are seeing the flaws in the system for what they are, unfair and painful...I think that the congregation is starting to understand that they can't sit back and watch other human beings suffer. They're starting to step forward and it's causing ripples everywhere. It's exponential growth, it'll continue towards marriage equality and other LGBT rights issues that need to be resolved.

It's really easy for the faithful to sit back and say, well, I don't do stuff like that...but it doesn't change the laws when everyone just sits. Now people are standing, working towards change. I've seen it coming, it's just a matter of time now.
I'm hoping for a new Enlightenment. In some ways, I think we're headed in that direction, but then I look at the people around me and go "No way is this happening with these idiots." So I dunno.



Subject jump: I will agree, for the most part, about the evils of religion. On the other hand, "religious" and "theist" aren't the same thing, even though people often conflate the two.

I am not religious, but I am not an atheist, either. I really, really, really hate using "spiritual but not religious" because it sounds like the kind of New Age bullshit that I can't stand. I lean toward panentheism, but on bad days, I swing more toward deism. I'm still searching--and probably always will be--but I have been heavily influenced by the Christian Gnostic gospels, by certain aspects of most of the major schools of Hinduism, and to a lesser extent, Zoroastrianism.

But, as someone who was brought up in a Southern Baptist church (though I went to a Methodist church later), I still have the Baptist's dislike of creeds, ceremony, ritual, and other assorted BS. I have not attended church regularly since I was 13 or 14 or so. I've gone for funerals and weddings, of course, and occasionally to shut my mother up, but I am not and never have been a member of any church, nor do I give any of my money to any of them.

What I believe in is very personal, and I rarely share anything about it with others unless they ask. I talk about it more here than anywhere else. I doubt I could find anyone who believed exactly as I do, and even if I did, that's not a basis for spending time together, in my opinion. I'm an introvert who doesn't need the social interaction that church brings other people. The bulk of my "spiritual practice" consists of reading and thinking about what I've read, so I imagine that'd be the most boring church ever, anyway.

TL;DR, I know
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:36 PM   #109
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Satin, the best thing you can say, is "Yes, Big religion is a fertile breeding ground for bigotry and abuse. Some churches and congregations are trying to turn that around. It's slow going, but we will not quit."


Something like that, yanno?
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:45 PM   #110
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Satin, the best thing you can say, is "Yes, Big religion is a fertile breeding ground for bigotry and abuse. Some churches and congregations are trying to turn that around. It's slow going, but we will not quit."


Something like that, yanno?
I DO say that. Unfortunately, on this board, it feels like if you admit to being religious, it automatically gets you branded as part of the problem no matter what evidence there is otherwise.

I had paragraphs of other shit to say but the last thing I want is to be told that I'm playing the victim so, bitchfest over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiBunny View Post
I'm hoping for a new Enlightenment. In some ways, I think we're headed in that direction, but then I look at the people around me and go "No way is this happening with these idiots." So I dunno.

TL;DR, I know
Think of it this way, the opposition tends to get louder and sloppier the more afraid they get. Hence Westboro Baptist. They see the reformation coming, that's why they're barking and growling so much.

They can't stop it. No one can, there are too many hands working towards change now. Too many people with open eyes and open hearts. We can't be silenced any longer.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:16 PM   #111
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Think of it this way, the opposition tends to get louder and sloppier the more afraid they get. Hence Westboro Baptist. They see the reformation coming, that's why they're barking and growling so much.

They can't stop it. No one can, there are too many hands working towards change now. Too many people with open eyes and open hearts. We can't be silenced any longer.
Like.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:35 PM   #112
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American nuns struggle with Vatican for change
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50143016n
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:55 PM   #113
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Like.

Some
times I can be clever.

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Originally Posted by Daddy2mylilgirl View Post
American nuns struggle with Vatican for change
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50143016n
Thank you for sharing that link, I'm really interested in things like this.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:56 PM   #114
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I DO say that. Unfortunately, on this board, it feels like if you admit to being religious, it automatically gets you branded as part of the problem no matter what evidence there is otherwise.
um, no. When you defend churches and when you deny the problem-- and I know you don't think you do that, but your wording very often reads that way-- and when you make false equivalencies like "pointing fingers both ways" --that you start looking like part of the problem.

Please, stop trying to defend religion from the anger of the people that religion has oppressed and IS oppressing-- right now, right in your face. Instead, go TO those churches, and start working to make them stop being oppressive. That's what we have to do. Stand alongside us.
Quote:
I had paragraphs of other shit to say but the last thing I want is to be told that I'm playing the victim so, bitchfest over.



Think of it this way, the opposition tends to get louder and sloppier the more afraid they get. Hence Westboro Baptist. They see the reformation coming, that's why they're barking and growling so much.

They can't stop it. No one can, there are too many hands working towards change now. Too many people with open eyes and open hearts. We can't be silenced any longer.
get on that megaphone, baby! But point it that way, not this way.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:03 PM   #115
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um, no. When you defend churches and when you deny the problem-- and I know you don't think you do that, but your wording very often reads that way-- and when you make false equivalencies like "pointing fingers both ways" --that you start looking like part of the problem.

Please, stop trying to defend religion from the anger of the people that religion has oppressed and IS oppressing-- right now, right in your face. Instead, go TO those churches, and start working to make them stop being oppressive. That's what we have to do. Stand alongside us. get on that megaphone, baby! But point it that way, not this way.
Your bias makes you read my words that way. I can't let you hold me responsible for things I'm not doing or saying. Sorry, but that's just not working for me.

I'm not part of the problem
. And I'm not going to let anyone treat me like I am. Again, that just doesn't work for me. I won't let me and people like me get blamed for things we had nothing to do with when we're openly working to correct them. When people do that, you're undoing all the work we're doing. Do you really want that? If you want to stand with us, if you REALLY want to stand with us instead of let your bias get in your way, then stand with us and don't let your preconceived notions color your interactions with us. Because they do, Stella.

I defend religion from the misdeeds of people because Religion Did Not Cause The Misdeeds. PEOPLE caused the misdeeds, and now PEOPLE are fixing those misdeeds by standing by the people they hurt and push with them for change. I'm truly sorry you can't separate the two, because it makes me feel like all the work we do won't change your mind, because you're too far into your own bias to ever see any good.

That's not my problem, that's yours. I'm doing my part. I won't justify myself anymore...I look at myself in the mirror and know I'm doing everything I can to stop the injustice. If you want to continue seeing every religious person as part of the problem regardless of what anyone says about it, I can't stop you.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:29 PM   #116
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KoPilot, I talk a hella lot about politics and the oncoming fascist state-- on Huntington, on facebook, on craigslist, on daily Kos.

At this moment we are talking about how religion impacts our sex lives, and why some of us don't want it in the bedroom with us.

here is what I wrote about that particular incident.



https://fetlife.com/users/454173/posts/1159010
This has got the be the first time that I've seen one of the regulars speak up about thread derailment.

Well guess what? Religion doesn't happen in some kinda evil vacuum. Don't blame it on theology as a whole, blame it on the ugly, power-hungry people out there.

(I swear to god, if only a fraction of this anti-religious fervor were directed at the scientific establishment and the shady shit it gets up to in the name of "objective" "facts", I swear I feel like so much more would get done...)
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:30 PM   #117
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Your bias makes you read my words that way. I can't let you hold me responsible for things I'm not doing or saying. Sorry, but that's just not working for me.

I'm not part of the problem
. And I'm not going to let anyone treat me like I am. Again, that just doesn't work for me. I won't let me and people like me get blamed for things we had nothing to do with when we're openly working to correct them. When people do that, you're undoing all the work we're doing. Do you really want that? If you want to stand with us, if you REALLY want to stand with us instead of let your bias get in your way, then stand with us and don't let your preconceived notions color your interactions with us. Because they do, Stella.

I defend religion from the misdeeds of people because Religion Did Not Cause The Misdeeds. PEOPLE caused the misdeeds, and now PEOPLE are fixing those misdeeds by standing by the people they hurt and push with them for change. I'm truly sorry you can't separate the two, because it makes me feel like all the work we do won't change your mind, because you're too far into your own bias to ever see any good.

That's not my problem, that's yours. I'm doing my part. I won't justify myself anymore...I look at myself in the mirror and know I'm doing everything I can to stop the injustice. If you want to continue seeing every religious person as part of the problem regardless of what anyone says about it, I can't stop you.
Perf

And ETA: My disclaimer is that I am of a religion of one, a personal cult. I am just as afraid of discussing ANYTHING pertaining to my theology to other religionists and non-religionists alike. It's a shitty place to be, socially speaking, and it gives me an outsider's worldview in debates like this. But a valuable one, I believe (if I didn't believe it I wouldn't be in this position), however always shoved to the side and erased because everyone's gotta take a fucking side.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:48 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by KoPilot View Post
Perf

And ETA: My disclaimer is that I am of a religion of one, a personal cult. I am just as afraid of discussing ANYTHING pertaining to my theology to other religionists and non-religionists alike. It's a shitty place to be, socially speaking, and it gives me an outsider's worldview in debates like this. But a valuable one, I believe (if I didn't believe it I wouldn't be in this position), however always shoved to the side and erased because everyone's gotta take a fucking side.
What makes me feel the worst about this is the fact that feeling alienated because of your beliefs is something I think we've all been through, but that doesn't ever stop people from taking sides.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:54 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoPilot View Post
Perf

And ETA: My disclaimer is that I am of a religion of one, a personal cult. I am just as afraid of discussing ANYTHING pertaining to my theology to other religionists and non-religionists alike. It's a shitty place to be, socially speaking, and it gives me an outsider's worldview in debates like this. But a valuable one, I believe (if I didn't believe it I wouldn't be in this position), however always shoved to the side and erased because everyone's gotta take a fucking side.
I feel you on this. ^^^^
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:54 PM   #120
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Wow. This thread bulked up.

I believe that religion (and I have an expansive view of what constitutes religion) is a natural human impulse, and like anything human, can vary on a scale of flawed to evil. Just like government. Or economic systems. Or families.

Of course, each of these is capable of producing profound beauty and goodness as well.



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You my dear Sir, are practically perfect in every way.
Me and Poppins.

I vary on a scale of flawed to evil.



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Except for one little statement: "silly" trivializes a serious issue. That is dangerous thinking.

Doffs hat.
I excel at silly, so it's hard not to use it.

I do see your point. But to me, the idea of "one true way" does seem silly.

Of course, I am not entirely unaware of the inherent irony of me arguing that everyone should accept the inherent truth that there is no "one true way."

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Originally Posted by BiBunny View Post
Thank you both for bringing Pagels and Ehrman into this discussion.

ETA: I say this because they are awesome. Also, the Gospel of Thomas holds a special place in my heart.

Edit #2: My interest in spiritual matters has increased considerably now that I am no longer involved in D/s at all. I don't think this is a coincidence.
Pagels for breakfast, with cream cheese and coffee!

What a yummy mind she has, and what a service she has done the religious and secular worlds, by digging in the millennial fields of Christian propaganda and power struggles, and uncovering a lost world.

It's an interesting thought, D/s and religion. I see so many parallels, and eroticize religious ritual so naturally, that it seems grown from the same cutting. For most people, it doesn't seem to be the case.




Sin, and ritual atonement and kneeling and cleansing and dark stone churches. Oooooh, baby.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:56 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by BiBunny View Post
There are plenty of independent churches around that don't support any sort of hierarchy. And not all Churches are set up like the Catholic Church, in that everybody has to, or is supposed to have to, obey the proclamations that come down from on high.
Of course, and the Quakers are GLBT friendly, the UU, big independant churches like Riverside (that proves that not all black church goers hate gays, Riverside is 60% black) and so forth. The UU is GLBT friendly, the ELCA is, the Episcopal church for the most part is, and so forth.Not to mention that most Jewish religious groups, other then the orthodox Jews, are pretty GLBT friendly, too, these days.

The problem with the Catholic Church in the US is it has almost 70 million members, and as friendly as some churches are, the money those people are sending in is being used for evil reasons. I have spoken to friends of mine at some glbt friendly churches (who do it under the radar, and have real fear of the local bishops) , that in a sense they support the Bishops de facto by being in the churches, and that politicians and such are dumb enough to believe that the Bishops represent the typical Catholic....

To me part of the problem is sort of like the charge leveled at Muslims, that they don't do enough to yell about the crazies, so in effect are accused of supporting them. A lot of Catholics are gay friendly, a lot of Christians are, but they let the assholes have the bully pulpit, Catholics who otherwise disagree are screaming about their Bishops using communion as a political weapon, or stating de facto that if you are Catholic, you have to vote for the GOP, because of their stands on abortion and gay marriage (I guess Catholicism has really shrunk their beliefs, if they think that abortion and gay marriage are the only major issues out there; then again, the Bishops have been amazingly silent on the death penalty and gutting programs for the poor, wonder why). Maybe if people of good faith started withdrawing their pledge portions that gets sent upstream, the Bishops and the Vatican would think twice of doing what they do. Lke I said, the US Bishops sunk something like 10 million into California to get prop 8 passed.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:01 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by KoPilot
(I swear to god, if only a fraction of this anti-religious fervor were directed at the scientific establishment and the shady shit it gets up to in the name of "objective" "facts", I swear I feel like so much more would get done...)
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:04 AM   #123
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I'm only saying this because someone else will so it might as well be me. Thanks for the kudos by the way!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having opinions, it's only wrong when you start making laws based on beliefs that force other people to act like they share those beliefs. I think pretty much every thinking person regardless of belief thinks this, though.
That is the problem, they don't. I agree totally, and I don't give a crap if some church wants to believe Jewish cultural law is 'the truth', they can think I am going to hell or someone else, God bless them. The problem is that the religious have done just as you say, or their leaders have. Up until 50 years ago, you couldn't legally buy any kind of birth control in Connecticut because of the Catholic Church, and DOMA was passed in the congress because the religious decided that they wanted the state to show disapproval of homosexuality. All those people who claim it is the word marriage are also full of shit, the reason they want marriage kept away from gays is because without that term, everything else doesn't amount to a bucket of warm spit.

And while thinking religious people realize their morality cannot be others, they also don't care enough to do something. The droolers, the evangelicals and such, go around chortling that every time ballot initiatives come up banning same sex marriage, they win, so if a majority support it, how come that happens? And it is because the thinking religious people don't give of enough of a crap to actually vote, if they had, prop 8 wouldn't have passed, and a lot of the other bans might not have passed. If the people in the research triangle area of North Carolina had voted in numbers, instead of leaving it to the rednecks, their incredibly been 'defense of marriage' law wouldn't have passed. If all the 'thinking' religious people, the people that belong to welcoming churches, the cafeteria catholics who think the bishops are a joke, all went and actually voted their conscience, it would be a different ballgame.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:09 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by LallyH View Post
Churches in the UK are closing all the time due to falling attendance/reduced revenues and ageing buildings which are listed and therefore too expensive to repair. Perhaps they are sending funds to Rome and that's why.

As far as keeping priests away from your kids, over here the priests are terrified of finding themselves on their own with a child for fear of the obvious (and I speak from personal experience here). The assumption is that all priests are paedophiles and should be treated accordingly. One trainee priest I know was working in a catholic school and in the staffroom, another teacher said he must obviously be a paedophile if he wanted to be a priest . When the trainee complained to the head teacher about how he was being treated, he was told that to keep quiet and get used to it, or leave. So he left.

I run a small manufacturing printing company in the UK and most of my staff are male, not well educated or well travelled. Apart from one, they're not religious either. Recently a female couple arrived to discuss with me a business they were trying to set up, designing and selling greetings cards for the gay community. They had noticed a gap in the market when they had got married themselves and none of their friends had been able to buy an appropriate card. Although my staff would not dare be anything other than polite to these girls's faces, their behaviour once they'd left the building was embarrassing and shameful. Their homophobia, racism and sexism is deeply ingrained and nothing I do or say makes any significant difference. As a female boss, they have to respect me, but it doesnt seem to have translated to their relationships with their wives, who they still treat as glorified servants in the main. Small town mentality. So I suppose what I am saying is that as 90% of my staff don't go to church and are homophobic etc, so how do we tackle that?
Stupidity is stupidity, and the only way you tackle it is by showing the way yourself. That said, even though the person is not religious, the images of gays, the idea of gays being dirty, can be directly tied back to religion; it was only a blink of an eye time wise when most people went to church, and even though many of the people you are talking about aren't religious themselves, they probably went as children,and it is likely their parents and grand parents were religious, went to church, and were inculcated in the stupidity of 2000 year old bronze age nomads who wrote that dreck.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:13 AM   #125
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To quote a well-known book, "He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed."

From my perspective, the problem is that The Church exerts a great deal of influence as a bloc, and that influence is used to push the official church line. If you're a progressive member of a conservative church, you run the risk that your membership will be used to increase the church's clout even when it's arguing for causes that you oppose.

Any time issues like birth control or same-sex marriage come up in public debate, I can expect to hear somebody like Cardinal Pell state that 26% of Australians are Catholic and their views should be respected. Pell is never going to acknowledge that many Catholics disagree with the Vatican position on such issues - so if they want to avoid being roped in as a "companion of fools", they need to be vocal in their dissent, and to think very carefully about what use is made of the money they drop in the donation plate.

Many of them are and do, FWIW; I have a lot of time for Father Bob Maguire, to name just one.
Thank you, Bramblethorn, well said. In the US Catholics are the largest religious group, almost 70 million, or about 28% of the US population, and yes, the Bishops use that to bully or try to bully politicians. The whole idiocy of the contraceptive mandate is a classic example of that, they figured they were going to fire up the faithful , and it didn't work, but politicians still listen to bloated sacks of puss like Dolan in NYC (who puts out this image of being this nice guy, but take it from me, he is not, he is as bad as any Bishop in Uganda, just hides it behind a veneer). Like I said, the Bishops spent 10 million in California supporting prop 8, and that didn't come from bake sales at the conference of bishops meeting
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