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Old 03-25-2013, 11:26 AM   #51
LallyH
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Sorry - it was a joke :/ obviously didn't translate.... It just made my ears prick up when I heard it this morning, as one who enjoys being 'chastened'!

Just to be clear, I've got 2 kids and am very much against physical punishment of any kind. The Mr and I both have our reasons for this which I shan't go into here.

And yes, consent is paramount. Anything I do or allow to be done to me is very much discussed and agreed to beforehand. I wasn't suggesting that anything other than this is to be entertained. Sorry if that didn't come across.

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Old 03-25-2013, 11:39 AM   #52
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...Children who are raised in a religion are never given the power to consent, or afforded the right to be informed.
It depends upon what one means by "children", "consent", and "informed".

In many religions, the child goes through a rite of passage ceremony to become a full member of the religion... confirmation in many Christian traditions, Bar/Bat Mitzvah in the Jewish faith. Part of the process is learning more about one's own religion. In the case of many in the Jewish community, this means spending years learning Hebrew prior to the ceremony. After the ceremony, the young person is considered an "adult" within the religious community, though often they still attend religious classes with people their own age instead of going to adult classes.

Another part of such traditions usually entails the young person stating that he or she is doing it of his or her own free will. We're often talking early teenage years here. Theoretically, the young person is old enough to call bull shit on the process if they desire, but in practice many are still too under their parents' influence to "think for themselves" as the saying goes. And yes, there are some parents (I've met my fair share) who would do something, let's call it unkind, to their kid if the kid decides the family religion isn't for them.

Two factors would really make the situation different. The first would be if part of the rite of passage were learning about other religious points of view, including atheism and agnosticism. To be fair this does happen to some extent, but not nearly enough. The second would be if parents, religious leaders, and congregations didn't have the clear expectation of everyone who starts the rite to end up on the same path by the end of the process... with disappointment and ostracization often resulting when other outcomes occur.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:40 AM   #53
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Sorry - it was a joke :/ obviously didn't translate....
yeah.. maybe you quoted too much of the sermon. :/

Usually when people do that they are not joking-- laurasunshinegal, for instance, seems to have taken it at face value.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:45 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post

Usually when people do that they are not joking-- laurasunshinegal, for instance, seems to have taken it at face value.
I don't understand?
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:30 PM   #55
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Got it now. Still getting used to finding my way around...
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:46 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
yeah.. maybe you quoted too much of the sermon. :/

Usually when people do that they are not joking-- laurasunshinegal, for instance, seems to have taken it at face value.
my saying it was "beautifully put" didn't mean i accepted very last thing that was said. i did, however, really feel an emotional response (in a good way!) to the statement "Can we not much more readily submit to a heavenly Father's discipline, and learn how to live?"
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:26 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
No honey, it is not BDSM discipline.

For most of us, BDSM is about sex and relationships. We don't have the same wiring as vanilla people. It's an attempt to be a happier person, and if being happier makes someone a better person, that's just fine. But it doesn't always work like that.

And it includes this thing called "Informed consent." which is what separates BDSM from good old fashioned abuse. Children who are raised in a religion are never given the power to consent, or afforded the right to be informed.
Also depends on what you mean by "religion".

But seriously-- couldn't this be said for basically every decision a parent makes for a child? The act of buying me dresses as a kid could be construed as gendered emotional abuse because I never consented to wearing them, or I did by coercion, and I wasn't afforded the right to be informed why it was necessary I wear them. Same could be said of my math homework. Et cetera et cetera.

There's no such thing as a neutral worldview to raise a child in.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:28 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by laurasunshinegal View Post
my saying it was "beautifully put" didn't mean i accepted very last thing that was said. i did, however, really feel an emotional response (in a good way!) to the statement "Can we not much more readily submit to a heavenly Father's discipline, and learn how to live?"
Quod erat demonstrandum.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:32 PM   #59
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Quod erat demonstrandum.
E pluribus unum... Oh wait, that's about Big Brother not the Holy Father!
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:35 PM   #60
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E pluribus unum... Oh wait, that's about Big Brother not the Holy Father!
Do you know what Q.E.D. means?
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:38 PM   #61
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Do you know what Q.E.D. means?
Completion of a mathematical or philosophical proof, yes?

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Old 03-25-2013, 01:39 PM   #62
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I am aware that I'm sticking my head above the parapet to be shot off, but here goes....

I've been a business owner for the last 20 years, and for 15 of those I've done work for the Catholic Church in England. I wasn't born a Catholic so I approached the contracts in the same way as I would any other.

I do have to say that the priests I've dealt with have always treated me with the utmost courtesy, respect and friendliness, and that I have not encountered any misogyny whatsoever. I just wish I could say the same of my clients in other business sectors :/ I find it quite funny in a way when I read so many articles attacking the Church on its approach to women - there are far bigger villains out there! My relationships with my clerical clients are the most rewarding and stimulating - we talk about a whole range of subjects from their point of view and from mine. One of them, who I had dealt with for a number of years, asked me very carefully if I would mind giving him some insight into how it felt, emotionally and physically, to give birth. He was an only child and had never been in a situation where he felt able to ask anyone about this, and as a hospital chaplain, he had always felt a difficulty in dealing with new mothers, whether giving the newborn a blessing, or dealing with a woman who had just lost a child. You may think, quite rightly, that this lack of training is typical of the Church's disrespect to women, but to me, the fact that he took the courage to ask me to help him with this emphasises that the men at the sharp end are doing their best under trying circumstances.

My impression is that the Catholic Church is like many other large organisations - the governing body set the rules but the grassroots hands-on personnel function in the REAL world and bend said rules accordingly. Taking my small local parish as an example, the parish council is run by an openly gay male couple. No-one, least of all the priest, is interested in their sex life, but is grateful for their expertise in the running of the church. Again this same priest (who is actually known as quite a conservative man) asked a friend of mine, an ex-nun, to officiate alongside him at a funeral, undertaking the duties that are normally reserved just for priests. It's not the sort of approach that you tend to hear much about, is it? Another local priest gave an entire homily thanking the women of the parish for all the work they do in keeping it going, and openly acknowledged the fact that the Church could not survive without the massive support it gets from the female parishioners.

The Church is nowhere near perfect, and please don't think I'm defending its thinking - I just thought that a couple of examples from real life rather than esoteric thought might give a bit of balance
I'm not Catholic, obs. My stepfather was, the Church was such a huge influence in NYC that it seemed worth paying attention to at all times. I've got kind of a soft spot for it at the same time that I've seen its toxic expressions clearly around me, but "it's complicated" indeed - I disagree whenever someone reduces it to boy touching and brainwashing, as too many people do.

There were a few brief moments in the seventies when this was probably the norm, when Catholicism was actively engaged with questions of life *after* birth, openly against wars, and walking the walk in a way that people could understand, and not waving the excommunication wand at public figures to threaten them over their votes in the secular world. Hopefully your peeps are below-radar enough that they're not going to pay the price in the hierarchy. Who knows, this new Pope could actually mean we'll see more of this, but no one should hold their breath.

Also - you're in the UK. It's different. I think you guys are less off the religious deep ends as we are here.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:03 PM   #63
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Also depends on what you mean by "religion".

But seriously-- couldn't this be said for basically every decision a parent makes for a child? The act of buying me dresses as a kid could be construed as gendered emotional abuse because I never consented to wearing them, or I did by coercion, and I wasn't afforded the right to be informed why it was necessary I wear them. Same could be said of my math homework. Et cetera et cetera.

There's no such thing as a neutral worldview to raise a child in.
yes, exactly! That pretty much sums up why raising children is not BDSM... Not even when some of it reminds us of some of the other of it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by funbg View Post
Completion of a mathematical or philosophical proof, yes?
"which had to be demonstrated."

Laura proved my contention that people don't expect long quoted sermons to be jokes.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:14 PM   #64
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When it comes to this, I'm glad to be an atheist. Rationalizing my romantic choices is challenging enough for me without dogma to consider.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:35 PM   #65
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Also - you're in the UK. It's different. I think you guys are less off the religious deep ends as we are here.
I must admit I've been surprised at the level of reaction that my post has received. We just don't take Christianity that seriously over here -the church has very little clout and all strands of the Christian church have been tainted with so much scandal that their authority has been totally undermined. That said, as a nation we're generally polite and respectful towards anyone who holds a religious view of any type - we just reserve the right to laugh at them when they're not looking
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:43 PM   #66
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Quod erat demonstrandum.
ego sum laetus vos es gauisus
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:52 PM   #67
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I must admit I've been surprised at the level of reaction that my post has received. We just don't take Christianity that seriously over here -the church has very little clout and all strands of the Christian church have been tainted with so much scandal that their authority has been totally undermined. That said, as a nation we're generally polite and respectful towards anyone who holds a religious view of any type - we just reserve the right to laugh at them when they're not looking
Very true, the Brits can be very irreverant towards religion. We are brought up with significantly more religious freedom.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:42 PM   #68
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Dude. One word; facebook.

I've been watching women get angry in real time.
I know, but the problem is they get pissed off, but they still go to church and they still pay their tithe. American Catholics for the most part are not Orthodox (only 20% live in Rick Santorum land), and their views don't reflect the vatican or Bishop's views. I guess I sort of understand it in one sense, most people not surprisingly view their religion through their local church, plus to them the church is something they grew up in and can share with their kids......and they like their local church, as much as they don't like the Bishops and vatican. I guess it is kind of like people have an 18% approval rating for congress, but generally give their local guy high marks..doesn't make logical sense, but not surprising. Among other things, you figure people would be bailing in droves realizing that the church makes big lip service about protecting kids, they have all these rules, but they don't enforce them. Mahony in LA fouled up royally, what was documented their is unconscionable, yet he was still allowed to vote in the conclave. The moron of a Bishop in KC was convicted in a trial by judge of failing to report a pedophile priest, and he is still Bishop.......though from what I understand, the Catholic Church in this country faces the same problem other churches do, they face declining membership, and while they claim that 50% of Catholics go to mass regularly, there are studies that suggest that is wishful thinking. I was amazed to read that only about 10% of Italians go to church, and that is supposed to be the seat of the church, amazing.

The interesting part is outside of atheists and agnostics, the fastest growing category is people who believe in God in some way, shape or form, but don't practice any specific variation of religion and don't belong to a church, I kind of think that is a good thing.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:56 PM   #69
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I am aware that I'm sticking my head above the parapet to be shot off, but here goes....

I've been a business owner for the last 20 years, and for 15 of those I've done work for the Catholic Church in England. I wasn't born a Catholic so I approached the contracts in the same way as I would any other.

I do have to say that the priests I've dealt with have always treated me with the utmost courtesy, respect and friendliness, and that I have not encountered any misogyny whatsoever. I just wish I could say the same of my clients in other business sectors :/ I find it quite funny in a way when I read so many articles attacking the Church on its approach to women - there are far bigger villains out there! My relationships with my clerical clients are the most rewarding and stimulating - we talk about a whole range of subjects from their point of view and from mine. One of them, who I had dealt with for a number of years, asked me very carefully if I would mind giving him some insight into how it felt, emotionally and physically, to give birth. He was an only child and had never been in a situation where he felt able to ask anyone about this, and as a hospital chaplain, he had always felt a difficulty in dealing with new mothers, whether giving the newborn a blessing, or dealing with a woman who had just lost a child. You may think, quite rightly, that this lack of training is typical of the Church's disrespect to women, but to me, the fact that he took the courage to ask me to help him with this emphasises that the men at the sharp end are doing their best under trying circumstances.

My impression is that the Catholic Church is like many other large organisations - the governing body set the rules but the grassroots hands-on personnel function in the REAL world and bend said rules accordingly. Taking my small local parish as an example, the parish council is run by an openly gay male couple. No-one, least of all the priest, is interested in their sex life, but is grateful for their expertise in the running of the church. Again this same priest (who is actually known as quite a conservative man) asked a friend of mine, an ex-nun, to officiate alongside him at a funeral, undertaking the duties that are normally reserved just for priests. It's not the sort of approach that you tend to hear much about, is it? Another local priest gave an entire homily thanking the women of the parish for all the work they do in keeping it going, and openly acknowledged the fact that the Church could not survive without the massive support it gets from the female parishioners.

The Church is nowhere near perfect, and please don't think I'm defending its thinking - I just thought that a couple of examples from real life rather than esoteric thought might give a bit of balance
The problem is what you are describing is the way the church is run on the ground and the way it is run by the Bishops and the Vatican. There are a lot of Catholic Churches in the US who don't follow the party line, there are Catholic Churches who have large populations of LGBT people, churches that bend rules on divorced people and such, on a lot of things, it is what I refer to in a another post as "I am pissed at the church, but I love my local church". The problem is that those churches often have to fly under the radar, they have to be afraid of their bishops, because of the sea change that took place under JPII, who basically turned back the meaning of Vatican II, that focused on getting the church to the people, and gave a lot of local control,back to doctrinal purity and ideological rigidity. My sweetie went to Catholic schools for 2-12th grade, and they had full blown sex ed, which ended when JPII and his reactionary types took over. We had in this country where an order of nuns, who spend their time tending to the poor and needy and powerless, face censure from the Vatican Cosa Nostra because *gasp* they spent their time helping the poor and weren't yelling and screaming about same sex marriage and abortion. Too, the Bishops in the US in the last election practically told Catholics it was their duty to vote for the republicans, and they pretty much base that on abortion and opposition to same sex marriage (death penalty? Doesn't matter. Supporting immoral wars? Doesn't matter. Giving tax breaks to huge corporations and the well off and slashing programs for the poor?no big deal, despite the fact that the church offficially takes stands on those issues....and I won't even go into birth control and issues around that (or the fact that the church, even the fatheads, choose to ignore the obvious, that 90% of Catholics use artificial birth control).

The problem is, how do you reconcile your local, nice parish with the idiots running the show, who have power to do real harm? Unfortunately, a lot of politicians to this day are afraid of the church, even though, as shown in the last election, their influence is minimal. Also keep in mind your local church may be gay friendly (and more then a few are), but the Catholic Church hierarchy is actively out there making sure gays can't marry..and I am not even going to tell you what they say about trans people.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:10 AM   #70
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I know, but the problem is they get pissed off, but they still go to church and they still pay their tithe.
Um, not so much any more.

Facebook is a real time conversation. Women, on facebook more than any other medium, are giving other women permission and support to follow their own consciences instead of following priests.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:13 AM   #71
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When it comes to this, I'm glad to be an atheist. Rationalizing my romantic choices is challenging enough for me without dogma to consider.
I dunno, I'm a theist and I haven't run into any problems. Then again, my personal religion has jack shit to say about sex and relationships, so...

My dogma consists of:

BE HOSPITABLE

HONOR WHERE YOU CAME FROM

RESPECT THE RULE OF RECIPROCITY

PICK UP YOUR DOG'S SHIT

that's basically it
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:28 AM   #72
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Too, the Bishops in the US in the last election practically told Catholics it was their duty to vote for the republicans, and they pretty much base that on abortion and opposition to same sex marriage (death penalty? Doesn't matter. Supporting immoral wars? Doesn't matter. Giving tax breaks to huge corporations and the well off and slashing programs for the poor?no big deal, despite the fact that the church offficially takes stands on those issues....and I won't even go into birth control and issues around that (or the fact that the church, even the fatheads, choose to ignore the obvious, that 90% of Catholics use artificial birth control).

The problem is, how do you reconcile your local, nice parish with the idiots running the show, who have power to do real harm? Unfortunately, a lot of politicians to this day are afraid of the church, even though, as shown in the last election, their influence is minimal. Also keep in mind your local church may be gay friendly (and more then a few are), but the Catholic Church hierarchy is actively out there making sure gays can't marry..and I am not even going to tell you what they say about trans people.
Like I said in my previous post, it appears there is a big difference in the amount of power the church in the US has compared to the UK. No bishop over here would be listened to in any kind of political debate - most people wouldn't know who they were, anyway. From what I see, any kind of Christian leader, whether catholic or Anglican, who ventures into the media limelight is immediately (and rightly) targeted on historic child abuse, despite whatever issue they came out to discuss. So we don't tend to see much of them.
And as far as reconciling local approach to the higher ups in power, well again it's down to numbers, really. The fact is that the majority of voters over here do not subscribe to any religion, so the act of parliament to allow gay marriage as well as gay civil partnership will go through on their wishes, despite what any of the Catholics say. The same happened a couple of years ago when the issue of child adoption by gay couples was raised. The Catholic church was against it, but no-one took any notice - there was a level of cynicism against a body that wanted to be listened to about a children issue and yet hadn't bothered to address its in-house problems for such a long time.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:28 AM   #73
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I know, but the problem is they get pissed off, but they still go to church and they still pay their tithe. American Catholics for the most part are not Orthodox (only 20% live in Rick Santorum land), and their views don't reflect the vatican or Bishop's views. I guess I sort of understand it in one sense, most people not surprisingly view their religion through their local church, plus to them the church is something they grew up in and can share with their kids......and they like their local church, as much as they don't like the Bishops and vatican. I guess it is kind of like people have an 18% approval rating for congress, but generally give their local guy high marks..doesn't make logical sense, but not surprising. Among other things, you figure people would be bailing in droves realizing that the church makes big lip service about protecting kids, they have all these rules, but they don't enforce them. Mahony in LA fouled up royally, what was documented their is unconscionable, yet he was still allowed to vote in the conclave. The moron of a Bishop in KC was convicted in a trial by judge of failing to report a pedophile priest, and he is still Bishop.......though from what I understand, the Catholic Church in this country faces the same problem other churches do, they face declining membership, and while they claim that 50% of Catholics go to mass regularly, there are studies that suggest that is wishful thinking. I was amazed to read that only about 10% of Italians go to church, and that is supposed to be the seat of the church, amazing.

The interesting part is outside of atheists and agnostics, the fastest growing category is people who believe in God in some way, shape or form, but don't practice any specific variation of religion and don't belong to a church, I kind of think that is a good thing.
If you think that people that disagree with the Church's policy on some things shouldn't go to Church, do you also think that people that disagree with some of their Country's policies should move out of the country?

Because to me, going to Church and agreeing with 100% of the Church's policies don't necessarily mean the same thing.

A lot of folks I know that go to Church regularly go because it's a social place where they can see family and friends and other people that share their faith, receive emotional and sometimes financial support during difficult times, have a good time singing, eating during potlucks and see it as a safe place to take their children to socialize and play (and get some much-needed me-time) during things like lock-ins.

Church isn't a place where narrowminded people go to gossip about Teh Gheys and plan diabolical ways to ruin their lives. Most people that go to Church do so because it's a pleasant place to visit people that share their faith.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:29 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by satindesire View Post
If you think that people that disagree with the Church's policy on some things shouldn't go to Church, do you also think that people that disagree with some of their Country's policies should move out of the country?

Because to me, going to Church and agreeing with 100% of the Church's policies don't necessarily mean the same thing.

A lot of folks I know that go to Church regularly go because it's a social place where they can see family and friends and other people that share their faith, receive emotional and sometimes financial support during difficult times, have a good time singing, eating during potlucks and see it as a safe place to take their children to socialize and play (and get some much-needed me-time) during things like lock-ins.

Church isn't a place where narrowminded people go to gossip about Teh Gheys and plan diabolical ways to ruin their lives. Most people that go to Church do so because it's a pleasant place to visit people that share their faith.
This is such a strong pull and a bonus for people that I know of a number of non-Christians that attend church for these reasons.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:43 PM   #75
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This is such a strong pull and a bonus for people that I know of a number of non-Christians that attend church for these reasons.
In today's internet culture, finding places to socialize face to face is really important. Church, just for that, isn't likely to go out of style anytime soon.
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