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Old 03-24-2013, 04:38 PM   #26
Sweetdaisymae
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Most major religions are extremely patriarchal, men own the heirachy and actively prevent any real female influence. For example the decision not to include the gosple of Mary Magdalane from the Bible followed by a concerted effort to brand her a whore. I find that extremely interesting that the one woman that Christ chose to bring into the inner circle has been marginalised by the christian church.

There certainly isn't equality within religion, this makes me very uncomfortable to join or participate in any organised religion. I do not the place where I go to for solace and guidance to also be deeming me to be somehow less worthy because of my gender.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by sereneone4u View Post
I don't have to acknowledge anything other than I see things differently than you and tell you not to put me in a box and make assumptions.

One can't have an intelligent conversation when one person insists in telling the other what their beliefs are.
You don't have to acknowledge anything you don't want to. That is absolutely true! But refusing to address any of the specific points I have made doesn't exactly scream "intelligent conversation". Rather, it says that you are not interested in looking beyond the surface. Definitions of "intelligent" include: mentally acute; showing sound judgment and rationality; appealing to the intellect. Sorry, but if your replies have demonstrated evidence-based reasoning (i.e. rational) I must have missed it. If you don't want to discuss the HOWS and WHYS of what you believe then fine, but don't then turn around and accuse me of rejecting intelligent discourse!

Yes, I have reached some conclusions about you and your beliefs. Not assumptions though, but rather reasoned conclusions based upon your own words. Two quick examples.

1. "The wife is to obey her husband and the husband is to love her like Jesus loves the church... Nothing unequal to it." You are describing a hierarchy. A benevolent one perhaps, in which the husband loves and protects the wife as Jesus does the Church, but a hierarchy nonetheless. Hierarchies by there very nature an UNEQUAL. Notice I did not say abusive, unjust, unfair, or morally wrong. I said unequal. (That's an opening for you by the way!) I don't see how asking you to explain your understanding of God's purpose behind such a hierarchy is insulting or unreasonable.

2. "They were not using an example they were writing the word of God." That is the hallmark viewpoint of Biblical literalism, nothing in the Christian Bible is metaphor, everything is fact, the time period in which the books of the Bible were written doesn't need to be taken into account. I invited you to share with me why you came to those conclusions, or to correct me if I misunderstood your point of view, but you have yet to do either.

Should you care to engage in an intelligent conversation then I would love to participate. Otherwise, I'll let you have the last word between us on this.

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Originally Posted by Sweetdaisymae View Post
Most major religions are extremely patriarchal, men own the heirachy and actively prevent any real female influence. For example the decision not to include the gosple of Mary Magdalane from the Bible followed by a concerted effort to brand her a whore. I find that extremely interesting that the one woman that Christ chose to bring into the inner circle has been marginalised by the christian church.

There certainly isn't equality within religion, this makes me very uncomfortable to join or participate in any organised religion. I do not the place where I go to for solace and guidance to also be deeming me to be somehow less worthy because of my gender.
And such discrimination is still happening today! You may find this of interest. Compare these two photos. What's different about them? Who's missing?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._bin_Laden.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...omCensored.jpg
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:12 PM   #28
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You my dear Sir, are practically perfect in every way.
Except for one little statement: "silly" trivializes a serious issue. That is dangerous thinking.

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Old 03-24-2013, 05:32 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by funbg View Post
You don't have to acknowledge anything you don't want to. That is absolutely true! But refusing to address any of the specific points I have made doesn't exactly scream "intelligent conversation". Rather, it says that you are not interested in looking beyond the surface. Definitions of "intelligent" include: mentally acute; showing sound judgment and rationality; appealing to the intellect. Sorry, but if your replies have demonstrated evidence-based reasoning (i.e. rational) I must have missed it. If you don't want to discuss the HOWS and WHYS of what you believe then fine, but don't then turn around and accuse me of rejecting intelligent discourse!

Yes, I have reached some conclusions about you and your beliefs. Not assumptions though, but rather reasoned conclusions based upon your own words. Two quick examples.

1. "The wife is to obey her husband and the husband is to love her like Jesus loves the church... Nothing unequal to it." You are describing a hierarchy. A benevolent one perhaps, in which the husband loves and protects the wife as Jesus does the Church, but a hierarchy nonetheless. Hierarchies by there very nature an UNEQUAL. Notice I did not say abusive, unjust, unfair, or morally wrong. I said unequal. (That's an opening for you by the way!) I don't see how asking you to explain your understanding of God's purpose behind such a hierarchy is insulting or unreasonable.

2. "They were not using an example they were writing the word of God." That is the hallmark viewpoint of Biblical literalism, nothing in the Christian Bible is metaphor, everything is fact, the time period in which the books of the Bible were written doesn't need to be taken into account. I invited you to share with me why you came to those conclusions, or to correct me if I misunderstood your point of view, but you have yet to do either.

Should you care to engage in an intelligent conversation then I would love to participate. Otherwise, I'll let you have the last word between us on this.



And such discrimination is still happening today! You may find this of interest. Compare these two photos. What's different about them? Who's missing?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._bin_Laden.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...omCensored.jpg
You wanted me to acknowledge that you were right and I was wrong. Not going to do that. You made assumptions about my beliefs instead of just asking me, there is no intelligent conversation to be had when you dictate to me thoughts and feelings I do not have. I discuss these types of things with friends quite often as I have an elective bunch to draw from so I am lucky. If you were so interested you would not have gone after those of varying beliefs seperate of your own. You did not question DGE's beliefs, you applauded them. I don't see it as a hierarchy in the way you do but there is no point in discussing it because you will just negate it instead of trying to understand.

You don't want an intelligent conversation. You want a conversation in which you rule and dictate what is right and wrong. You want to have discussion that is UNEQUAL.

You did not invite me to share, you labeled me.

This is the end of my conversation with you.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:35 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funbg View Post
And such discrimination is still happening today! You may find this of interest. Compare these two photos. What's different about them? Who's missing?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._bin_Laden.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...omCensored.jpg
I look at the pictures, the first in colour looks photoshopped to add the two women, rather than the opposite. Either way is strange and disconcerting as to why.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Sweetdaisymae View Post
I look at the pictures, the first in colour looks photoshopped to add the two women, rather than the opposite. Either way is strange and disconcerting as to why.
Now that I look more closely, it does kind of look like the woman in back could have been photoshopped in! But if Clinton was inserted, then why the extra laptop on the table? I'm going to stick with the color one is legit and the one in the newspaper is fake.

I'm not a believer in the idea that all of our problems would be solved if women took over the world, but men being exclusively in charge of everything for so much of human history has led to a lot of suffering over the years.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:09 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by funbg View Post
Now that I look more closely, it does kind of look like the woman in back could have been photoshopped in! But if Clinton was inserted, then why the extra laptop on the table? I'm going to stick with the color one is legit and the one in the newspaper is fake.

I'm not a believer in the idea that all of our problems would be solved if women took over the world, but men being exclusively in charge of everything for so much of human history has led to a lot of suffering over the years.
Had another look, the second pic is def photoshopped.

I just hope for equality, proper equality. Within religion, law and social norms.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:02 PM   #33
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My most recent reading of the Text of the Flying Spaghetti Monster tells me that bdsm is okay. That's good enough for me.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:51 PM   #34
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I think most of the standard religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) would be very negative about BD/SM as we practice it, or D/s, in the sense that all of them, even the more liberal ones, would be uncomfortable. The more conservative ones on the grounds that it is deviant sexuality that takes away from the sacred act of sex as reproduction and all the rest of the bilge that sex is to make babies. The more liberal ones might be upset with BD/SM play as abuse (especially M D/F s) and so forth (the latter, based on experience). Even the liberal ones are troubled by things, like bisexuality, worry over bi-non monagamous relationships.

The Neo Pagan faiths IME have less problem with it, I knew a lot of Wiccans, Santarians and others who were quite open in their circles and has no problems; on the other hand, I know a couple of leather dykes who had serious problems in their circle of Astarte or whatever they called it, who were called out of 'recreating patriarchal abuse of women's bodies' or some such trash *gag*.

What is ironic if you look at the history of religion, how the elements we use in play were prevalent in religion. I can't speak about Judaism, but in Christianity there is a tradition of self punishment, things like hair shirts, these things called goads I believe (basically a spiked thing you wear around a leg, it is uncomfortable), or groups that literally flagellated themselves or each other, they literallly could beat themselves into an altered state, which is what subspace is really.....

As far as the traditional roles of men and women, what is in scripture, what churches might or might not have taught, and what played out could often be different things. The traditional marriage vows have a bride saying she will obey her husband, he doesn't say that. Scripture might not say so directly, but churches taught wives that they had duty to their husband, and that he needs to be the head of the household (my sweetie grew up in the church, went to Catholic School through 12th grade...he family life sucked, she talked to someone at school about the emotional and physical abuse the father was doing to both of them, and she was told "Pray for your father, he is the head of the household, and your duty is to pray for him"...sound like an equal marriage kind of view?).

More importantly, whatever scripture says or doesn't, what the churches actually taught and preached is another. All the churches until relatively recent times had the view a woman was meant to be subservient to men, they taught it in their marital counseling, they promoted the view that a woman had a duty to provide sex to her husband, and the RC and mainline protestant churches in the 19th and early 20th century preached and fought tooth and nail when laws changed that allowed women rights outside marriage, the right to own property, to testify in court, and so forth. The churches in this country were not happy when the law 40 years ago allowed a wife to charge a husband with rape, they argued that a husband could not rape his wife, since she had the duty to give him sex (don't believe me? Do some google research on this, some are still trying to get that repealed). A lot of what became 'common culture' in the west, in Europe and the US, as in the middle east with Islam, comes from religion, and arguing that Christianity or Judaism didn't promote a male centered marriage, with the man in charge, falls in the test against what society was like, because most elements of societal culture evolved from religion, or at least what the churches promoted.

And yes, the churches deliberately downplayed the role of Mary Magdelene. Some churches still say she was a prostitute (she wasn't), and the RC admitted, somewhere in the 1920's, that zealous Bishops had conflated Mary Magdelene with the Prostitute Mary to degrade her, it was outright misogyny. I suspect Christ would not want women subjugated in a marriage, his ministry was full of women (and I suspect that despite what the traditionalist churches say, Christ had female apostles and a lot of influential female followers, but the bible and traditional Christianity made sure only the men were important. There is a line in one of the gospels (this was in Ehrman's "Misquoting" Jesus), where they mention a certain women was chief among the disciples in what scholars believe was the original text, but by the time it got into the canonical bible, it was changed that her husband was.

To be honest, I don't think people's religion is going to get them into BD/SM, I think that in the end, it is simply how people are wired.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:00 PM   #35
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Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether religious practices should adapt to the realities of the age (I believe they should), and whether there is one twue "Christian marriage," (I believe there isn't), I would posit that, for Christians seeking religious guidance on gender roles (a dicey prospect, but okay), looking only as far back as the 1928 (or earlier) BCP is, in a word, dumb.

Check out recent scholarship on the early church (like Elaine Pagels' work) and you'll find that women had a prominent and robust leadership role in the early church... Until they were smacked down. Too uppity and all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by njlauren View Post
I think most of the standard religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) would be very negative about BD/SM as we practice it, or D/s, in the sense that all of them, even the more liberal ones, would be uncomfortable. The more conservative ones on the grounds that it is deviant sexuality that takes away from the sacred act of sex as reproduction and all the rest of the bilge that sex is to make babies. The more liberal ones might be upset with BD/SM play as abuse (especially M D/F s) and so forth (the latter, based on experience). Even the liberal ones are troubled by things, like bisexuality, worry over bi-non monagamous relationships.

The Neo Pagan faiths IME have less problem with it, I knew a lot of Wiccans, Santarians and others who were quite open in their circles and has no problems; on the other hand, I know a couple of leather dykes who had serious problems in their circle of Astarte or whatever they called it, who were called out of 'recreating patriarchal abuse of women's bodies' or some such trash *gag*.

What is ironic if you look at the history of religion, how the elements we use in play were prevalent in religion. I can't speak about Judaism, but in Christianity there is a tradition of self punishment, things like hair shirts, these things called goads I believe (basically a spiked thing you wear around a leg, it is uncomfortable), or groups that literally flagellated themselves or each other, they literallly could beat themselves into an altered state, which is what subspace is really.....

As far as the traditional roles of men and women, what is in scripture, what churches might or might not have taught, and what played out could often be different things. The traditional marriage vows have a bride saying she will obey her husband, he doesn't say that. Scripture might not say so directly, but churches taught wives that they had duty to their husband, and that he needs to be the head of the household (my sweetie grew up in the church, went to Catholic School through 12th grade...he family life sucked, she talked to someone at school about the emotional and physical abuse the father was doing to both of them, and she was told "Pray for your father, he is the head of the household, and your duty is to pray for him"...sound like an equal marriage kind of view?).

More importantly, whatever scripture says or doesn't, what the churches actually taught and preached is another. All the churches until relatively recent times had the view a woman was meant to be subservient to men, they taught it in their marital counseling, they promoted the view that a woman had a duty to provide sex to her husband, and the RC and mainline protestant churches in the 19th and early 20th century preached and fought tooth and nail when laws changed that allowed women rights outside marriage, the right to own property, to testify in court, and so forth. The churches in this country were not happy when the law 40 years ago allowed a wife to charge a husband with rape, they argued that a husband could not rape his wife, since she had the duty to give him sex (don't believe me? Do some google research on this, some are still trying to get that repealed). A lot of what became 'common culture' in the west, in Europe and the US, as in the middle east with Islam, comes from religion, and arguing that Christianity or Judaism didn't promote a male centered marriage, with the man in charge, falls in the test against what society was like, because most elements of societal culture evolved from religion, or at least what the churches promoted.

And yes, the churches deliberately downplayed the role of Mary Magdelene. Some churches still say she was a prostitute (she wasn't), and the RC admitted, somewhere in the 1920's, that zealous Bishops had conflated Mary Magdelene with the Prostitute Mary to degrade her, it was outright misogyny. I suspect Christ would not want women subjugated in a marriage, his ministry was full of women (and I suspect that despite what the traditionalist churches say, Christ had female apostles and a lot of influential female followers, but the bible and traditional Christianity made sure only the men were important. There is a line in one of the gospels (this was in Ehrman's "Misquoting" Jesus), where they mention a certain women was chief among the disciples in what scholars believe was the original text, but by the time it got into the canonical bible, it was changed that her husband was.

To be honest, I don't think people's religion is going to get them into BD/SM, I think that in the end, it is simply how people are wired.
Thank you both for bringing Pagels and Ehrman into this discussion.

ETA: I say this because they are awesome. Also, the Gospel of Thomas holds a special place in my heart.

Edit #2: My interest in spiritual matters has increased considerably now that I am no longer involved in D/s at all. I don't think this is a coincidence.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:50 PM   #36
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Personally, I am an atheist and have been since birth.

I get what you mean by this, but I immediately saw a baby Stella saying - um, nope, that's a load of bullshit.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:57 PM   #37
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I get what you mean by this, but I immediately saw a baby Stella saying - um, nope, that's a load of bullshit.
I did have to learn to talk first...
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:00 PM   #38
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I did have to learn to talk first...
In the clip in my head, you just emerged from the birth canal and went, yeah, no, that doesn't work for me.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:20 PM   #39
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In the clip in my head, you just emerged from the birth canal and went, yeah, no, that doesn't work for me.
I was such a cute baby, too!
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:12 AM   #40
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Not strictly speaking just about D/s, but I do think that Catholicism is a religion that, because of its incarnational aspects, has the power to bring out erotic tendencies in people. There are a couple of books on the subject, one on how the 19th century decadents in England were drawn to Catholicism and High Anglicanism because of the sensual elements of their liturgies. Oscar Wilde was drawn to Catholicism in both his youth and his later years because of the rich and passionate Latin Mass that was celebrated at most parish churches in the 19th century, especially at the Brompton Oratory.

Eric Gill, founder of the Distributionist movement(a system based on Catholic social teaching that rejected both socialism and capitalism)n the last century, was a rather interesting character that expressed his faith through some very interesting art. Google him and you'll see how erotically charged his understanding of God's relationship with the human person is.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:40 AM   #41
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My faith and my D/s orientation has nothing to do with each other. I wish I had something clever to offer but honestly, that's the brass tacks.

This is slightly off topic but I will say that I'm aware that there's a whole metric shit-ton of misogyny and sexism in the Big Three religions, and I think it's up to modern folks like myself to work against that and show that a person can still be a member of the Big Three and strive towards equality all at once.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:14 AM   #42
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My faith and my D/s orientation has nothing to do with each other. I wish I had something clever to offer but honestly, that's the brass tacks.

This is slightly off topic but I will say that I'm aware that there's a whole metric shit-ton of misogyny and sexism in the Big Three religions, and I think it's up to modern folks like myself to work against that and show that a person can still be a member of the Big Three and strive towards equality all at once.
Of course, there are a lot of people already doing that, for example, most of the protestant churches, and many Jewish Temples, have female clergy, and a lot of churches have made attempts to get rid of the misogyny, by recognizing women's roles, for example, in the founding of Christianity, and by using inclusive language services, instead of liturgies and such that are all about men.

And plenty of theologians and religious writers have written on the subject of women in faith,and also have addressed the fact that traditional faiths have been so damn misogynistic, Jack Spong wrote a wonderful book called "Sins of Scripture" that talks about this, and that the religious groups have often been on the other side when women have fought for rights. As Jack Spong or Matthew Fox would tell you, the key is in separating out the faith, from the crap that men put out there as faith , and really getting what they are trying to teach you. Reformed and reconstructionist Jews will tell you that the ancient Jewish society that wrote their texts were no always so enlightened, and that what they wrote reflected their own time and place, not really what God wanted. There is a lot of doubt Mohammed was particularly misogynistic, but those who wrote down the verses that became the Q'ran, grafted tribal cultural crap onto it, that gave it the misogynistic flavor it has today; there is a lot of evidence that women played a huge role in Christ's ministry, there is a lot of non Biblical texts that say women were of big importance to Christ and the early Church (and it is well known that in many early churches, women preached/led services and so forth, in part because of Paul's writings), but then when the boys got around to deciding scripture and editing the texts, suddenly it became an all boys club.

It will be interesting to see if women finally get pissed off at the vatican and decide to leave the church over its misogyny, if they do so, it is going to hurt them, because women tend to go to church a lot more then men.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:28 AM   #43
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It will be interesting to see if women finally get pissed off at the vatican and decide to leave the church over its misogyny, if they do so, it is going to hurt them, because women tend to go to church a lot more then men.
Dude. One word; facebook.

I've been watching women get angry in real time.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:54 AM   #44
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after seeing another thread on ethnicity and D/s, a slightly different topic got going in my mind: does your religion (or general faith outlook) draw you towards Dominance? submission? how about the opposite: does your faith push you away from D/s?

any thoughts?
Spiritually? We're food for worms, it's curtains, pack as much fun into this motherfucker as you can.

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In the spirit of equal time, sites like Huffington Post should have sections for male anatomy hanging out instead of just the idiotic celebrity “side boob” and “nip slip” camera ops. I have no idea what that would be like to have a camera in my face at every turn, looking for “the” shot. I know what some of you are saying. “Then why do they wear clothes like that unless they want those photos taken?” I don’t know what to tell ya. Perhaps just don’t take the fuckin picture? Evolve? I don’t know. - Henry Rollins
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:16 AM   #45
satindesire
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Originally Posted by njlauren View Post
Of course, there are a lot of people already doing that, for example, most of the protestant churches, and many Jewish Temples, have female clergy, and a lot of churches have made attempts to get rid of the misogyny, by recognizing women's roles, for example, in the founding of Christianity, and by using inclusive language services, instead of liturgies and such that are all about men.

And plenty of theologians and religious writers have written on the subject of women in faith,and also have addressed the fact that traditional faiths have been so damn misogynistic, Jack Spong wrote a wonderful book called "Sins of Scripture" that talks about this, and that the religious groups have often been on the other side when women have fought for rights. As Jack Spong or Matthew Fox would tell you, the key is in separating out the faith, from the crap that men put out there as faith , and really getting what they are trying to teach you. Reformed and reconstructionist Jews will tell you that the ancient Jewish society that wrote their texts were no always so enlightened, and that what they wrote reflected their own time and place, not really what God wanted. There is a lot of doubt Mohammed was particularly misogynistic, but those who wrote down the verses that became the Q'ran, grafted tribal cultural crap onto it, that gave it the misogynistic flavor it has today; there is a lot of evidence that women played a huge role in Christ's ministry, there is a lot of non Biblical texts that say women were of big importance to Christ and the early Church (and it is well known that in many early churches, women preached/led services and so forth, in part because of Paul's writings), but then when the boys got around to deciding scripture and editing the texts, suddenly it became an all boys club.

It will be interesting to see if women finally get pissed off at the vatican and decide to leave the church over its misogyny, if they do so, it is going to hurt them, because women tend to go to church a lot more then men.
I'll have to check that book out. Thanks for the head's up!
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:17 AM   #46
LallyH
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I am aware that I'm sticking my head above the parapet to be shot off, but here goes....

I've been a business owner for the last 20 years, and for 15 of those I've done work for the Catholic Church in England. I wasn't born a Catholic so I approached the contracts in the same way as I would any other.

I do have to say that the priests I've dealt with have always treated me with the utmost courtesy, respect and friendliness, and that I have not encountered any misogyny whatsoever. I just wish I could say the same of my clients in other business sectors :/ I find it quite funny in a way when I read so many articles attacking the Church on its approach to women - there are far bigger villains out there! My relationships with my clerical clients are the most rewarding and stimulating - we talk about a whole range of subjects from their point of view and from mine. One of them, who I had dealt with for a number of years, asked me very carefully if I would mind giving him some insight into how it felt, emotionally and physically, to give birth. He was an only child and had never been in a situation where he felt able to ask anyone about this, and as a hospital chaplain, he had always felt a difficulty in dealing with new mothers, whether giving the newborn a blessing, or dealing with a woman who had just lost a child. You may think, quite rightly, that this lack of training is typical of the Church's disrespect to women, but to me, the fact that he took the courage to ask me to help him with this emphasises that the men at the sharp end are doing their best under trying circumstances.

My impression is that the Catholic Church is like many other large organisations - the governing body set the rules but the grassroots hands-on personnel function in the REAL world and bend said rules accordingly. Taking my small local parish as an example, the parish council is run by an openly gay male couple. No-one, least of all the priest, is interested in their sex life, but is grateful for their expertise in the running of the church. Again this same priest (who is actually known as quite a conservative man) asked a friend of mine, an ex-nun, to officiate alongside him at a funeral, undertaking the duties that are normally reserved just for priests. It's not the sort of approach that you tend to hear much about, is it? Another local priest gave an entire homily thanking the women of the parish for all the work they do in keeping it going, and openly acknowledged the fact that the Church could not survive without the massive support it gets from the female parishioners.

The Church is nowhere near perfect, and please don't think I'm defending its thinking - I just thought that a couple of examples from real life rather than esoteric thought might give a bit of balance
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:22 AM   #47
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And going off on another tangent, I was listening to the recording of a Choral Evensong on the BBC earlier today and this was the reading:

'My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by him; for whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives'.

Bear what you have to bear as "chastening" - as God's dealing with you as sons. No true son ever grows up uncorrected by his father. For if you had no experience of the correction which all sons have to bear you might well doubt the legitimacy of your sonship. After all, when we were children we had fathers who corrected us, and we respected them for it. Can we not much more readily submit to a heavenly Father's discipline, and learn how to live?

For our fathers used to correct us according to their own ideas during the brief days of childhood. But God corrects us all our days for our own benefit, to teach us his holiness. Now obviously no "chastening" seems pleasant at the time: it is in fact most unpleasant. Yet when it is all over we can see that is has quietly produced the fruit of real goodness in the characters of those who have accepted it in the right spirit. So take a fresh grip on life and brace your trembling limbs. Don't wander away from the path but forge steadily onward. On the right path the limping foot recovers strength and does not collapse.

If that isn't BDSM discipline, I don't know what is
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:26 AM   #48
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...and I think we can read 'sons' as 'daughters' if we like, can't we
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:52 AM   #49
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I have some very very "religious" Christian friends and we argued during the election over the rape and abortion issues. One of them even told me that she would consider rape a blessing.
...

And now I have gotten off topic, I apologize.
i dont think you are off topic at all... you are describing an opposite of D/s in a lot of ways. D/s brings boundaries with it and in my mind, the sub can always say no. maybe that "no" comes with consequences, but then the sub always has the right to leave. love in a marriage and sex in a marriage isnt the permanent one way street in every situation (i.e. rape or abuse) that some religious folks would make it out to be. IMHO anyway!

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Originally Posted by midwestyankee View Post
My most recent reading of the Text of the Flying Spaghetti Monster tells me that bdsm is okay. That's good enough for me.
FINALLY, someone with the same point of view! lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by LallyH View Post
And going off on another tangent, I was listening to the recording of a Choral Evensong on the BBC earlier today and this was the reading:

'My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by him; for whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives'.

Bear what you have to bear as "chastening" - as God's dealing with you as sons. No true son ever grows up uncorrected by his father. For if you had no experience of the correction which all sons have to bear you might well doubt the legitimacy of your sonship. After all, when we were children we had fathers who corrected us, and we respected them for it. Can we not much more readily submit to a heavenly Father's discipline, and learn how to live?

...

If that isn't BDSM discipline, I don't know what is

..and I think we can read 'sons' as 'daughters' if we like, can't we
how beautifully put!!
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:08 AM   #50
Stella_Omega
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LallyH View Post
And going off on another tangent, I was listening to the recording of a Choral Evensong on the BBC earlier today and this was the reading:

'My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by him; for whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives'.

<snip>

If that isn't BDSM discipline, I don't know what is
No honey, it is not BDSM discipline.

For most of us, BDSM is about sex and relationships. We don't have the same wiring as vanilla people. It's an attempt to be a happier person, and if being happier makes someone a better person, that's just fine. But it doesn't always work like that.

And it includes this thing called "Informed consent." which is what separates BDSM from good old fashioned abuse. Children who are raised in a religion are never given the power to consent, or afforded the right to be informed.
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