How to turn a story-driven character into a character-driven story?

[twiggystig]

Hello,

I'm currently writing a (mostly non-ero) story but one thing I'm noticing I'm doing is that all of my characters in the story have real dialogue...except the protagonist.

All my protagonist does is walk around, ask questions and have situation after situation happen to them. They have no personality at all beyond that of a six-year-old, really.

How do I undo this? I feel like I can write the other characters fairly competently, but I'm having a hard time turning the protagonist into something other than a narrative magnet that extracts information from other characters.

Here's an example (please mind that this is not even first-draft material):

P: “Wait, so we’re going off to war?”
O: “We? No. I’m going. You’re staying here. As my wife, since I am off to war, you must provide comfort to those not selected to fight.”
P: “Provide comfort? What does that mean?”
O: “You will perform the role of wife for the rest of the ___ in my absence.”
P: “Wait, you mean…like…?”
O: “Anything you do for me, you must do for anybody else who asks.”
P: “But I thought I was yours? How are you ok with this?”
O: “It is the way our ___ works. A warrior goes off to fight while his wife attends to those back home. It is an incentive for us to fight as hard as we can so we can come home and reclaim our role as husband sooner.”

This is pretty much how every conversation goes.

How might I rewrite this bit and give P some actual character?

Thanks!

[lovecraft68]

A lot of his character can be revealed by the way the "supporting characters" respond to him.

One way to give him a bit more depth is switch POV to another character and get their "take" on him.

[chocolatecookie3]

What does the protagonist want? She can start talking to people and acting so that she gets her own wants and needs met. Then you'll have some conflict and opportunities for the other characters to respond to her.

[Stella_Omega]

My suggestion;
Condense some of what hubby tells her into one sentence. Then have her shoot him a look of incredulous laughter.

Then he can say something else and she can ask him if he means her to become the village bicycle. And then she can tell him what she thinks of that-- good or bad is fine, but let her have an opinion-- and then act on it.

Either she plans to go to war with him, so she starts sharpening her knife, or she gets ready to take on her duties as the Mistress of the town, so she um, starts counting supplies or something?


In general, I write the same way you did there, sloppy and figuring things out. Then I look at the scene to see if anything is revealed to me, that I can use in service of the story. Then I decide what the scene has to do to move the story, and change and delete to that end. I find that almost every time, my writing will lose around a third of its word count. Sometimes when I'm having trouble streamlining, I'll do it artificially, by the numbers, aiming to drop that many words. If I don't make it, that's okay, but the attempt is really useful.

[Ironiclaconic]

Sounds like a story problem.

What's your arc for her? Does she start off reluctant and horrified but by the end she has whipped all these guys into her own personal harem and the husband has to fight like hell to win her back?

Does she quietly and blushingly get off on each and every service she person's until she is a perfect little submissive?

Does she realize the husband is a tool and runs off with his friend?


Once you know that, you should know what kind of personality she needs to have.

[sr71plt]

A protagonist doesn't have to have a personality. The hook of the story can be that bigger than life life happens around the protagonist and bounces off her/him without the protagonist being much more that a mirror, almost Forest Gump style.

[hoo_hoo_boo]

I notice there is no on going context to the conversation. The protagonist could at least fiddle with some thing and if you like you could describe body language to add authenticity. You haven't employed any of the senses enough. Surely she would catch the scent of his armor or the touch of his fingers on her arm being cold...............
As a rule people like dialogue and try to write whole stories with it but at the end I some times wish I could kill the author because it's too often devoid of context and meaningless as a result.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by hoo_hoo_boo

I notice there is no on going context to the conversation. The protagonist could at least fiddle with some thing and if you like you could describe body language to add authenticity. You haven't employed any of the senses enough. Surely she would catch the scent of his armor or the touch of his fingers on her arm being cold...............
As a rule people like dialogue and try to write whole stories with it but at the end I some times wish I could kill the author because it's too often devoid of context and meaningless as a result.

Read some George V. Higgins, reputed to be one of the best dialogue writers of all time.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The answer to the OP is simple. Whats busting up the china shop, an earthquake or the main character?

[i_would]

Originally Posted by twiggystig

Hello,
P: “Wait, so we’re going off to war?”
O: “We? No. I’m going. You’re staying here. As my wife, since I am off to war, you must provide comfort to those not selected to fight.”
P: “Provide comfort? What does that mean?”
O: “You will perform the role of wife for the rest of the ___ in my absence.”
P: “Wait, you mean…like…?”
O: “Anything you do for me, you must do for anybody else who asks.”
P: “But I thought I was yours? How are you ok with this?”
O: “It is the way our ___ works. A warrior goes off to fight while his wife attends to those back home. It is an incentive for us to fight as hard as we can so we can come home and reclaim our role as husband sooner.”

This is pretty much how every conversation goes.

How might I rewrite this bit and give P some actual character?

Thanks!

I approach these threads as kind of a challenge, and with some inspiration from other posters in this thread will give it a stab. First draft, no re-reading done, just a few minutes of reading and then going for it.

Also taking some inspriration from islamic countries, where the concept of temporary marriages is normal - and meant for exaclty this purpose, where the husband is gone for some length of time, and the wife needs another man to take care of her (provide income and protection and so).

First of all I'm taking a clear POV, my habit is to write through the eyes of a single character ('third person restricted' I think it's called), allowing to get to that characters mind, but not to the others directly.


She found him in the bedroom, wearing his army uniform and rumbling through the cupboards collecting his other equipment. She froze in the doorway. His uniform was brand new, still pefectly clean and well pressed. It even smelled new. Packing materials were strewn around him as he prepared all his stuff.
“We’re going off to war now, for real?”
He turned around, and looked at her. “We? No. I’m going. You’re staying here. As my wife, when I am off to war, you must provide comfort to those not selected to fight.”
“Provide comfort? What does that mean?” she stammered.
“You will perform the role of wife for my brother in my absence.”
“Wait, you mean…like…?”
“Anything you do for me, you must do for him.”
She walked up to him, and grabbed his arms.
“But I thought I was yours? How are you ok with this?”
“It is the way our world works. A warrior goes off to fight while his wife attends to those back home. It is an incentive for us to fight as hard as we can so we can come home and reclaim our role as husband sooner. And so that I do not have to worry about your well-being.”
She started to cry, and he hugged her, pulling her against his chest.
"But I don't even like your brother. And I don't want you to go to war. I'm so afraid you will not come back to me."


I think this gives both of them quite a bit more character, and sets the scene much more clearly. Use what you like. Or discard if you don't, I'm not that much of a writer anyway. Have fun with it.

[hoo_hoo_boo]

Originally Posted by JAMESBJOHNSON

Read some George V. Higgins, reputed to be one of the best dialogue writers of all time.

I guess there's always some one special. I'll have to find out who this guy is because, honestly, I have no idea.
As a rule though, dialogue isn't as simple as some people think and it"s a trap to rely on it too much.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by hoo_hoo_boo

I guess there's always some one special. I'll have to find out who this guy is because, honestly, I have no idea.
As a rule though, dialogue isn't as simple as some people think and it"s a trap to rely on it too much.

Yep. Higgins was special in how he used dialogue to do all the work. Elmore Leonard was a best selling author when he first read Higgins, Elmore had 25 years worth of great reads under his belt, and he says Higgins taught him how to write from the 1st novel he published in 1972 or so.

Pete Dexter is another excellent writer to learn from.

http://www.elmoreleonard.com/index.p...iewthread/239/

[NoJo]

Originally Posted by twiggystig

How do I undo this? I feel like I can write the other characters fairly competently, but I'm having a hard time turning the protagonist into something other than a narrative magnet that extracts information from other characters.

This is quite a common problem in detective-type mysteries. The formulaic trick is to give your character

1. A goal
2. Obstacles
2. A defect

Which will give him/her a reason to to ask all those questions of the other characters.

She/he could be -- an officer of the law|out for revenge|lost|trying to win a bet|a psychopath|trying to find love|on the run from the law

etc etc

[Weird Harold]

Originally Posted by twiggystig

Hello,

I'm currently writing a (mostly non-ero) story but one thing I'm noticing I'm doing is that all of my characters in the story have real dialogue...except the protagonist.

All my protagonist does is walk around, ask questions and have situation after situation happen to them. They have no personality at all beyond that of a six-year-old, really.

After some thought, I have to wonder how much your are using the advantages of the protagonist's viewpoint? Are you getting inside her head and showing her thoughts at all?

Showing how the questions are derived from confusion, cynicism, curiosity, or whatever, by comparing and contrasting the protagonist's thoughts with her words might well be what your character needs.

[Stella_Omega]

This is better. Now see if you can get some physical reaction into your character-- you are not really in her head, or anyone's. What you tell us could be from anyone's point of view-- she stuttered, she started to cry. If I saw my partner putting on a uniform, I might feel scared or excited. I know my stomach would lurch, my hands would start sweating. Maybe my voice would wobble as I asked, and maybe I would tryto hide that wobble in my voice.

If I was told I wasn't coming with, I might feel confused, or relieved, or sad or pissed off. As a reader, I want to know what her inner reaction is-- I'm curious about who she is, and that's one way we learn about a character.

And if my partner told me I would be someone else's partner-- while they were gone-- to someone I didn't like-- my first sentence audible would end in an exclamation mark! And would have a couple of cusswords in it, too.

You might grab a copy of this little book, I liked it and it was nice and cheap ;

The Story Within, Plot Guide for novelists

Originally Posted by i_would

I approach these threads as kind of a challenge, and with some inspiration from other posters in this thread will give it a stab. First draft, no re-reading done, just a few minutes of reading and then going for it.

Also taking some inspriration from islamic countries, where the concept of temporary marriages is normal - and meant for exaclty this purpose, where the husband is gone for some length of time, and the wife needs another man to take care of her (provide income and protection and so).

First of all I'm taking a clear POV, my habit is to write through the eyes of a single character ('third person restricted' I think it's called), allowing to get to that characters mind, but not to the others directly.


She found him in the bedroom, wearing his army uniform and rumbling through the cupboards collecting his other equipment. She froze in the doorway. His uniform was brand new, still pefectly clean and well pressed. It even smelled new. Packing materials were strewn around him as he prepared all his stuff.
“We’re going off to war now, for real?”
He turned around, and looked at her. “We? No. I’m going. You’re staying here. As my wife, when I am off to war, you must provide comfort to those not selected to fight.”
“Provide comfort? What does that mean?” she stammered.
“You will perform the role of wife for my brother in my absence.”
“Wait, you mean…like…?”
“Anything you do for me, you must do for him.”
She walked up to him, and grabbed his arms.
“But I thought I was yours? How are you ok with this?”
“It is the way our world works. A warrior goes off to fight while his wife attends to those back home. It is an incentive for us to fight as hard as we can so we can come home and reclaim our role as husband sooner. And so that I do not have to worry about your well-being.”
She started to cry, and he hugged her, pulling her against his chest.
"But I don't even like your brother. And I don't want you to go to war. I'm so afraid you will not come back to me."


I think this gives both of them quite a bit more character, and sets the scene much more clearly. Use what you like. Or discard if you don't, I'm not that much of a writer anyway. Have fun with it.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

This is better. Now see if you can get some physical reaction into your character-- you are not really in her head, or anyone's. What you tell us could be from anyone's point of view-- she stuttered, she started to cry. If I saw my partner putting on a uniform, I might feel scared or excited. I know my stomach would lurch, my hands would start sweating. Maybe my voice would wobble as I asked, and maybe I would tryto hide that wobble in my voice.

If I was told I wasn't coming with, I might feel confused, or relieved, or sad or pissed off. As a reader, I want to know what her inner reaction is-- I'm curious about who she is, and that's one way we learn about a character.

And if my partner told me I would be someone else's partner-- while they were gone-- to someone I didn't like-- my first sentence audible would end in an exclamation mark! And would have a couple of cusswords in it, too.

You might grab a copy of this little book, I liked it and it was nice and cheap ;

The Story Within, Plot Guide for novelists

Mmmm my druthers is to present the words and let the reader bring her reaction. To me its the soul of minimalism, the Reader finds his own meaning and way.

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by JAMESBJOHNSON

Mmmm my druthers is to present the words and let the reader bring her reaction. To me its the soul of minimalism, the Reader finds his own meaning and way.

That's a real skill-- that deceptive simplicity.

Maybe SOME interior action, and some description. Change it up.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

That's a real skill-- that deceptive simplicity.

Maybe SOME interior action, and some description. Change it up.

I dont know. The shit that blows me away are always the simple things; I get like major downloads from what bugs do or how ordinary rain performs majestic feats. I suppose plenty of people wanna be spoon fed but thats not how most arts are. The composer writes the score or lyrics and the consumer brings something to it, to interpret it. Ditto painting, sculpture, cinema, photography etc. The bug dont splain it to me, the rain dont come with Cliff Notes.

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by JAMESBJOHNSON

I dont know. The shit that blows me away are always the simple things; I get like major downloads from what bugs do or how ordinary rain performs majestic feats. I suppose plenty of people wanna be spoon fed but thats not how most arts are. The composer writes the score or lyrics and the consumer brings something to it, to interpret it. Ditto painting, sculpture, cinema, photography etc. The bug dont splain it to me, the rain dont come with Cliff Notes.

Bugs and rain don't have minds and emotions. People do. You can, obviously, ignore minds and emotions while writing about people, but you might as well be writing about bugs in that case.

The composer writes as many footnotes explaining how to work the score as he writes bass and treble notes-- that's why that Chopin sounds like it does, and why no one deviates much from that sound.

[i_would]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

If I was told I wasn't coming with, I might feel confused, or relieved, or sad or pissed off. As a reader, I want to know what her inner reaction is-- I'm curious about who she is, and that's one way we learn about a character.

Just came back to this thread, and back to this part of the conversation which is quite intersting:

P: “Wait, so we’re going off to war?”
O: “We? No. I’m going. (...)"

It seems she was expecting to join him to go to war. Why was that? Is she a fighter, too? Any other reason why she would expect to join, and why she even would want to join rather than stay at home?

Conversations are fun. They can contain so much information in such a dense format.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

Bugs and rain don't have minds and emotions. People do. You can, obviously, ignore minds and emotions while writing about people, but you might as well be writing about bugs in that case.

The composer writes as many footnotes explaining how to work the score as he writes bass and treble notes-- that's why that Chopin sounds like it does, and why no one deviates much from that sound.

I understand and get your points, but I wrote poetry first, and its the soul of minimalism; what I'm trying to master is adding some bones and hair to the soul, but not too much. I truly believe there's a silent consciousness tween lovers. I'm painfully aware that too many of us never go to Heaven in the arms of our Angels.

[3113]

Originally Posted by twiggystig

All my protagonist does is walk around, ask questions and have situation after situation happen to them. They have no personality at all beyond that of a six-year-old, really.

Answer is obvious. Get rid of your protagonist. A nothing character is, IMHO, the writer's way of creating a place holder. It holds the place in the story until you decide which of the characters that are alive and working and talking deserve that place. Putting it another way, instead of fixing what isn't working, why not use what is working?

Writers often do this by the way. I wrote a whole half of a novel with a nothing protagonist--he was really just a place holder, reacting rather than acting; and the story could only go so far with him. Then I realized that his brother was the real main character. Once I made the interesting brother the protagonist, dialogue flowed, action happened, the story came alive. I also recall talking to one writer who's story was stuck because she had a similarly dull protagonist. 'You don't like your protagonist, do you?" I asked, and she blinked at me as if it had never occurred to her that she could dislike her protagonist. "No," she admitted. "But you do like his scampish friend?" '"Yes." "So why isn't he the protagonist?" Her face went blank, and then absolutely lit up. Suddenly, the story which was stuck, wasn't stuck any more. The active scamp character gave it forward momentum.

It's funny, but we writers often have this odd idea that we can't do this sort of thing. That once we've got a protagonist we must hold onto them. But if they're not working, they're not working. Fire them and give someone else the job. You can do that.

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by JAMESBJOHNSON

I understand and get your points, but I wrote poetry first, and its the soul of minimalism; what I'm trying to master is adding some bones and hair to the soul, but not too much. I truly believe there's a silent consciousness tween lovers. I'm painfully aware that too many of us never go to Heaven in the arms of our Angels.

You're a real softie.

I see the art of poetry as condensation, though, more than minialism. hardly any words means the words have to be the right ones.

I agree with 3113, by the way. I've had to fire protagonists too. In one case, it meant that my real protag was assigned the wrong sex for the purpose of the story, so I had a lot of pronoun-switching to do. Thank goodness for search and replace.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

You're a real softie.

I see the art of poetry as condensation, though, more than minialism. hardly any words means the words have to be the right ones.

I agree with 3113, by the way. I've had to fire protagonists too. In one case, it meant that my real protag was assigned the wrong sex for the purpose of the story, so I had a lot of pronoun-switching to do. Thank goodness for search and replace.

Call it distillation, and I'll agree

Poetrys a bitch to write but it does force you to learn word meanings.

Thinking about fictive dreams today.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by 3113

Answer is obvious. Get rid of your protagonist. A nothing character is, IMHO, the writer's way of creating a place holder. It holds the place in the story until you decide which of the characters that are alive and working and talking deserve that place. Putting it another way, instead of fixing what isn't working, why not use what is working?

Writers often do this by the way. I wrote a whole half of a novel with a nothing protagonist--he was really just a place holder, reacting rather than acting; and the story could only go so far with him. Then I realized that his brother was the real main character. Once I made the interesting brother the protagonist, dialogue flowed, action happened, the story came alive. I also recall talking to one writer who's story was stuck because she had a similarly dull protagonist. 'You don't like your protagonist, do you?" I asked, and she blinked at me as if it had never occurred to her that she could dislike her protagonist. "No," she admitted. "But you do like his scampish friend?" '"Yes." "So why isn't he the protagonist?" Her face went blank, and then absolutely lit up. Suddenly, the story which was stuck, wasn't stuck any more. The active scamp character gave it forward momentum.

It's funny, but we writers often have this odd idea that we can't do this sort of thing. That once we've got a protagonist we must hold onto them. But if they're not working, they're not working. Fire them and give someone else the job. You can do that.

True. If I cant tie a character to the two doors out they go. The doors could be bells you cant unring. Whatever you cant undo.