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Old 01-22-2013, 07:45 PM   #51
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I think you're giving a full on military situation too much credit. Besides a lot of this stuff happens even in training. I don't see how a full on military engagement that you were mentally prepared for because you knew exactly where you were and the situation you were heading into would be more stressful than you walking through the park minding your own business when suddenly your in the middle of a shoot out.
Maybe...each situation is diff. I just know with 30+ weapons on line dumping/maneuvering onto the objective + whatever indirect fire against multiple targets at varying ranges and directions could lead to a higher chance of confusion than 1 asshole that everyone with a line of sight instantly see's and identifies as baddie the second that first shot goes off.

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I didn't argue that the testing was a good idea. I agree with that 100%. It's never going to happen because we're Americans and deeply stupid, and it's certainly not going to happen BEFORE or WITHOUT a ban on assault rifles. That pretty much has to come before anything else simply because of the way that people think.
^True story.

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And texting while driving is regulated in more and more states every year.
Fucking took them long enough...
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:48 PM   #52
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So, any of you Super Bad posters have a Driver's License?
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:52 PM   #53
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So, any of you Super Bad posters have a Driver's License?
I can legally drive anything....what's your point?
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:55 PM   #54
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Maybe...each situation is diff. I just know with 30+ weapons on line dumping/maneuvering onto the objective + whatever indirect fire against multiple targets at varying ranges and directions could lead to a higher chance of confusion than 1 asshole that everyone with a line of sight instantly see's and identifies as baddie the second that first shot goes off.
Each situation is different but I think you're giving too much credit to people's powers of observation. If you're not expecting a gun shot, which ideally walking around on your day to day life you aren't expecting one and you HEAR a gun shot and three people have guns out which one was the asshole and who are the "good" guys?

As for the other part, yeah it is a true story. As the Righties correctly point out you have to do this in steps, if you can't ban the "scary" weapons there is no way in hell you're going to convince people to do anything to limit access (which mandatory training would do) to the "harmless" handguns.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:19 PM   #55
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Each situation is different but I think you're giving too much credit to people's powers of observation. If you're not expecting a gun shot, which ideally walking around on your day to day life you aren't expecting one and you HEAR a gun shot and three people have guns out which one was the asshole and who are the "good" guys?
See this is where I get back to mitigate the chances of this happening through training. Perfect? No...but nothing ever is.

We can sit around circle jerking with theory crafting all day back and forth and go nowhere.

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As for the other part, yeah it is a true story. As the Righties correctly point out you have to do this in steps, if you can't ban the "scary" weapons there is no way in hell you're going to convince people to do anything to limit access (which mandatory training would do) to the "harmless" handguns.
I know what you are saying and you are probably right, but I don't buy that....the only reason this is so is because of our leadership (by that I mean DC as a whole).

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Old 01-22-2013, 08:38 PM   #56
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See this is where I get back to mitigate the chances of this happening through training. Perfect? No...but nothing ever is.

We can sit around circle jerking with theory crafting all day back and forth and go nowhere.
Fair enough. And again I'm not arguing with you as far as training mitigating this to a large degree. I just think that when you remember things like the Tuscon shooting took 45 seconds that I'm less than convinced that a bunch of civilians training or not are going to be less of a danger to each other than the military or police. There are so many random factors working here that I'm simply unconvinced that this would be a step towards a safer society.



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I know what you are saying, but I don't buy that....the only reason this is so is because of our leadership (by that I mean DC as a whole).
I don't think so but this falls under I'm curious why you think this is a leadership issue and not a culture issue. Clearly Americans as a whole a pro-gun. (Even the left for the most part are pro-gun despite the what the RWCJ would have you believe) You can sell them on the idea that military grade weapons should only be owned by the military despite the fact that you constantly point out, very rarely are these weapons used, and it's virtually impossible to convince them that hand guns are a problem because they are small and innocent looking. There is also a not insignificant number of people who are quite pleased that minorities are culling the herd. They label it as "I don't care if gang bangers wipe each other out, hell I like that" which is the same as their basic attitude on drugs.

For the record I would love to be wrong about this. The only way I think you MIGHT be able to pull anything to limit handguns would be to abuse the hell out of the wording and intent of the 2nd Amendment and argue that the 2nd Amendment ONLY protects your right to own military style weapons so you can defend the country against invaders or if necessary fight against the military and overthrow the government. I imagine the number of people who are going to lug a SAW around is rather limited.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:48 PM   #57
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Two guys argue and one shoots. SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!SCHOOL ATTACK!

What stupid fuck started this thread. .
Someone who doesn't want you to have the right to defend yourself when he comes looking for his handout.
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America would rather re-elect the worst president ever than a Republican. That has to sting!
And he finally admits that Obama is the worst president ever.

We'll have to watch how he back pedals out of this one.
He never did, so it's true - Obama is the worst President ever, ever.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:51 PM   #58
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Someone who doesn't want you to have the right to defend yourself when he comes looking for his handout.
Or someone who wants to live in a country where we don't shrug off school shootings because they happen so often that it's not even jarring anymore.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:54 PM   #59
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Houston - details only beginning to filter through here; what do you mericans know already?
What do you think about eric holder?
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:21 PM   #60
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A gunfight in Texas and it's news?
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:35 PM   #61
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Fair enough. And again I'm not arguing with you as far as training mitigating this to a large degree. I just think that when you remember things like the Tuscon shooting took 45 seconds that I'm less than convinced that a bunch of civilians training or not are going to be less of a danger to each other than the military or police. There are so many random factors working here that I'm simply unconvinced that this would be a step towards a safer society.
I can appreciate that...


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Originally Posted by Sean Renaud View Post
I don't think so but this falls under I'm curious why you think this is a leadership issue and not a culture issue. Clearly Americans as a whole a pro-gun. (Even the left for the most part are pro-gun despite the what the RWCJ would have you believe) You can sell them on the idea that military grade weapons should only be owned by the military despite the fact that you constantly point out, very rarely are these weapons used, and it's virtually impossible to convince them that hand guns are a problem because they are small and innocent looking. There is also a not insignificant number of people who are quite pleased that minorities are culling the herd. They label it as "I don't care if gang bangers wipe each other out, hell I like that" which is the same as their basic attitude on drugs.

For the record I would love to be wrong about this. The only way I think you MIGHT be able to pull anything to limit handguns would be to abuse the hell out of the wording and intent of the 2nd Amendment and argue that the 2nd Amendment ONLY protects your right to own military style weapons so you can defend the country against invaders or if necessary fight against the military and overthrow the government. I imagine the number of people who are going to lug a SAW around is rather limited.
Can't argue any of this a bit....I totally think this is a cultural issue and there are tons of factors that play into it, so much that if you really look at it seeing the forest starts getting hard with all the trees in the way ya know?

Shieeeet....I would fucking love a 249...that was my piece right there, being 6'4" I could shoot that thing like a bawss. If I ever have a spare 30-40g's laying around


totally getting one if I win the lotto.

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A gunfight in Texas and it's news?
Sayz the poster in Chicago....
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:44 PM   #62
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Houston - details only beginning to filter through here; what do you mericans know already?
I love how the media always refers to these events as shootings rather than killings, mass murders, attacks, or whatever, like the implement used is the main story. Its part of unconcious programming of people to view guns negatively.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:01 PM   #63
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I love how the media always refers to these events as shootings rather than killings, mass murders, attacks, or whatever, like the implement used is the main story. Its part of unconcious programming of people to view guns negatively.
What words would make people view guns positively after an incident involving projectile weapons?
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:03 PM   #64
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I can appreciate that...
Again, note that I'm not actually talking about taking away guns. I'm in the camp that for as much press as these things get they are still sufficiently rare that it's an "acceptable" cost. If things can bring down the numbers I'm all for it but I'm not one to just let people with bad arguments which is almost all of the pro-gun people go unchallenged.

While I'll deny it to the grave you know you're a pretty decent person when you aren't going out of your way to be a complete dick. I could almost like you if you took more cues from say Pereg than from Busybody.




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Can't argue any of this a bit....I totally think this is a cultural issue and there are tons of factors that play into it, so much that if you really look at it seeing the forest starts getting hard with all the trees in the way ya know?
I'm a chainsaw or forest fire kind of guy. If the forest is getting hard to see for the trees it may not be the worst idea you ever came up with to simply eliminate enough trees to let you see what you need to see. Sometimes you can't allow yourself to be bothered with every single detail and instead you need to just cut to the chase or ignore the problem and hope it goes away.

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Shieeeet....I would fucking love a 249...that was my piece right there, being 6'4" I could shoot that thing like a bawss. If I ever have a spare 30-40g's laying around
Look, if I see a guy with a big box walking next to a guy with a trench coat I'll take that as sufficient warning to hit the deck. Besides as I recall that is just heavy enough that most people would not carry one around just cus. So problem solved. Same way I'd be less than concerned about people running about with rocket launchers. Sure it's one shot one kill but it's. . .you know. . .one shot. Also they are kinda hard to conceal which seems to be the biggest single problem.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:44 PM   #65
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Or someone who wants to live in a country where we don't shrug off school shootings because they happen so often that it's not even jarring anymore.
Hey dickwad, this wasn't a school shooting. There were no Children injured in the making. It's an open college campus where adults attend classes. There are no children there.
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America would rather re-elect the worst president ever than a Republican. That has to sting!
And he finally admits that Obama is the worst president ever.

We'll have to watch how he back pedals out of this one.
He never did, so it's true - Obama is the worst President ever, ever.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:45 PM   #66
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Hey dickwad
i haven't heard that word in ages!
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:46 PM   #67
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Hey dickwad, this wasn't a school shooting. There were no Children injured in the making. It's an open college campus where adults attend classes. There are no children there.
First, when did college stop being school?
Second, it's not uncommon for children to go to college.
Third, does that really make it better if no kids were there?
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:58 PM   #68
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First, when did college stop being school?
Second, it's not uncommon for children to go to college.
Third, does that really make it better if no kids were there?
First, college isn't really a school in the normal sense of the word. Yes there are classes to attend, yet if you don't go, no one calls your mommy, so it's more like a work place than say an elementary, junior or high school.

Second, the usual graduate from high school is above the age of consent in every state of the union. You might still call them children because you an old worn out fart, but they call themselves young adults or adults. Most of them are over 18 anyway.

Third, while it's a shame that someone was injured, they were adults, not children and the shooting was limited - between two idiots - there was no intent to shoot anyone else. Yes, I know a janitor was caught in the crossfire, but the shooter didn't go hunting defenseless "children".

Fourth, now for a count of the deaths of young people in Chicago. Anyone?
Or how about east L.A.? Anyone?
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Originally Posted by mercury14
America would rather re-elect the worst president ever than a Republican. That has to sting!
And he finally admits that Obama is the worst president ever.

We'll have to watch how he back pedals out of this one.
He never did, so it's true - Obama is the worst President ever, ever.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:18 AM   #69
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First, college isn't really a school in the normal sense of the word. Yes there are classes to attend, yet if you don't go, no one calls your mommy, so it's more like a work place than say an elementary, junior or high school.

Second, the usual graduate from high school is above the age of consent in every state of the union. You might still call them children because you an old worn out fart, but they call themselves young adults or adults. Most of them are over 18 anyway.

Third, while it's a shame that someone was injured, they were adults, not children and the shooting was limited - between two idiots - there was no intent to shoot anyone else. Yes, I know a janitor was caught in the crossfire, but the shooter didn't go hunting defenseless "children".

Fourth, now for a count of the deaths of young people in Chicago. Anyone?
Or how about east L.A.? Anyone?
You made 4 threads in your first 6 years here and 4 threads since this past election year. Shut up.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:45 AM   #70
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What words would make people view guns positively after an incident involving projectile weapons?
Who cares! Just make sure the news calls it a fully automatic assault machine revolver at all cost....


that just anyone can buy at Walmart like a loaf of bread!!
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:51 AM   #71
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Who cares! Just make sure the news calls it a fully automatic assault machine revolver at all cost....


that just anyone can buy at Walmart like a loaf of bread!!
hell yeah... that's what i'm talking about!!!
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:07 AM   #72
butters
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it's a relief that the numbers of injured remained as low as it did.

it's surely gonna freak out plenty of people attending that college, though. it's not unrealistic to expect a place of education to be a place of relative safety, where concerns should only be about the material being studied and exams being taken in a gun-free zone.

so Texas has a debate or something coming up soon, about whether guns should be allowed on such sites . . . is this event likely to strengthen either side's position?
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:09 AM   #73
Byron In Exile
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Originally Posted by chipbutty View Post
Houston - details only beginning to filter through here; what do you mericans know already?
I don't know shit about it.

You know what? Houston is farther away from me than Istanbul is from you. By about 200 miles.

Whatever it is, I'm sure they'll deal with it.

California has other problems.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:32 AM   #74
Byron In Exile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chipbutty View Post
it's a relief that the numbers of injured remained as low as it did.

it's surely gonna freak out plenty of people attending that college, though. it's not unrealistic to expect a place of education to be a place of relative safety, where concerns should only be about the material being studied and exams being taken in a gun-free zone.

so Texas has a debate or something coming up soon, about whether guns should be allowed on such sites . . . is this event likely to strengthen either side's position?
I'm just looking forward to the explosion of gun control threads over whatever happened.

Those are always fun.

This is fucking America. There's no such thing as a "gun-free zone," here.
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When the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw.




In the High School halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out

In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:53 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chipbutty View Post
it's a relief that the numbers of injured remained as low as it did.

it's surely gonna freak out plenty of people attending that college, though. it's not unrealistic to expect a place of education to be a place of relative safety, where concerns should only be about the material being studied and exams being taken in a gun-free zone.

so Texas has a debate or something coming up soon, about whether guns should be allowed on such sites . . . is this event likely to strengthen either side's position?
You know this huge rash of campus shootings didn't start until after the 90' gun free zone act?...almost immediately the school shooting rate started to jump and by the mid 90's it went through the fucking roof. Before then spree shootings were pretty rare actually. It may seem counter intuitive but it created the absolutely picture perfect "come get your 15 min of fame" lure for the mentally insane...every single one of these major shootings takes place in a "gun free zone".

Just sayin'....according to the data the most consistent things all these super shootings have in common is that when crazy comes unhinged it heads for a "gun free zone"... maybe it's time we let that blatant and horrifically failed policy go.

Oh yes the public getting their warm fuzzy trumps all...you're right we will be keeping that fail around forever.
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