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Old 01-24-2013, 05:34 PM   #26
Bramblethorn
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Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
I understand fully what you're saying here, but there is something to be said for a writer needing to grow at least a little bit of a skin.

I'm not speaking of ridiculously hateful comments, but when someone can;t handle "A pretty good story, but you might want to get a proof reader" I think that's pretty sad.
Oh, I agree. A good writer should be resilient enough to accept that sort of criticism, or laugh it off if it's misguided.

But if the author is too sensitive to cope with public criticism, I don't think forcing them to keep it up is going to help things. That seems more likely to foster resentment and defensiveness than improvement.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:10 PM   #27
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Oh, I agree. A good writer should be resilient enough to accept that sort of criticism, or laugh it off if it's misguided.

But if the author is too sensitive to cope with public criticism, I don't think forcing them to keep it up is going to help things. That seems more likely to foster resentment and defensiveness than improvement.
True and I guess if you're only writing for fun, then you don't necessarily need to take the bad with the good.

The problem is whether they delete the remark or not, they have read it so it may "stick" anyway. Removing it just ensures no one else will read it.

One other element to add to this is authors who in their bio ask for feedback, then dismiss it if its not to their liking, that kind of annoys me, but again I only speak of decently expressed critique not "LC, you suck!"

I consider shitty feedback-especially over the top trolling- as a sort of rite of passage here. It's like when you get those first really nasty remarks you've become part of a fraternity.

Especially the first time a writer dives into the LW pool troll remarks are kind of like battle scars. "Yeah they said that, but I'm still here!"

But obviously everyone has their own take.

I just find it funny that no one ever starts a thread complaining about any anon comment that reads, "You are the best fucking writer ever! Best story I ever read! You're the best writer in all of literotica!"

nope, no one bitches about those!
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:02 PM   #28
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One other element to add to this is authors who in their bio ask for feedback, then dismiss it if its not to their liking, that kind of annoys me, but again I only speak of decently expressed critique not "LC, you suck!"
On another forum where I hang out, we have a bingo board where one of the squares is "Asks for advice - argues with respondents"...

I remember one who posted on the forums here asking for feedback. I gave some honest criticism, they argued ferociously with me and everybody else who didn't fall to their knees in praise, and very shortly afterwards all my stories coincidentally got 1-bombed :-)

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I just find it funny that no one ever starts a thread complaining about any anon comment that reads, "You are the best fucking writer ever! Best story I ever read! You're the best writer in all of literotica!"

nope, no one bitches about those!
Funnily enough, I almost did that a few weeks back. I got a PM along the lines of "WOW YOU ARE AN AWESOME WRITER THIS IS SO HOT CAN YOU WRITE A HOT LESBIAN STORY WITH KATHY LEE GIFFORD PLEASE?"

Which... look, I'm always happy to know somebody's enjoyed my stories, but seriously... I write long slow talky stuff about cricket, family members who have cancer, recipes for soup, ethnic tensions in Australia as symbolised by football codes, tech support, etc etc.

Yes there's sex in there, but if you want Kathy Lee stroke I'm just about the worst person in the world to write it. I'm afraid it left me wondering whether they'd honestly read my stuff, or whether they were just PMing compliments to authors from Lesbian in the hope of sweet-talking somebody into doing a request piece.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:05 PM   #29
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Kathy Lee Gifford??? Seriously?
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:16 PM   #30
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Kathy Lee Gifford??? Seriously?
There's no accounting for tastes.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:17 PM   #31
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And Paco, if the comment was "given and received; it's purpose was satisfied" than why don't you delete positive comments as well? They have also served their purpose. Or just turn comments off and only accept feedback?
To clear the air, I don't delete all negative feedback. I do delete certain kinds of feedback, including but not limited to, the following:

1. Anything delivered in an overtly hostile manner, from "your characters suck" to "what the fuck is this drivel doing on a top list?"
2. Commenter wanted a different flavor of smut (e.g., "Good story, why'd you have to wreck it with that butt stuff?")
3. Commenter didn't like the ending #1 (e.g., "I think Heather should be with Stacey 'cuz Stacey's awesome. Sam sucks. Heather shouldn't be with Sam. You ruined what could have been a good story since Heather didn't wind up with Stacey. Now your story stinks.")
4. Commenter didn't like the ending #2 -- God help me, this is the bane of the incest writer (e.g., "Wait? What happens next? You call that an ending? Do they stay together? Do they get married? How do they tell their parents? Is she pregnant? Do they have kids? Do the kids have flippers for hands? I can't believe you left it where you did. You wasted my time. You're lazy. You should have finished your story.")
5. Me-too-ing: "Your story reminds me of the time my girlfriend and her ex-babysitter and I got stoned then..."
6. "X is disgusting" where X=lesbian, anal, incest, or whatever.

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As you are one of my favorite authors I am disappointed to see that you have the "if your feedback isn't 100% positive, write something better" attitude. Just because someone doesn't have the talent to create/perform at the same level doesn't mean that their opinions and feedback are invalid.
I think we missed each other on this point. In my earlier post, I was trying to say that a commenter can always resort to posting something of their own to Lit, then gleefully exert as little or as much control as they like over the comments they receive. And I've got nothing against non-posters; I read here for half a dozen years before I posted anything. Plus, I get helpful comments from non-posters all the time.

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The difference is that Disney has no artistic integrity (at least when regarding Mickey Mouse and similar properties) and are using it only as a tool for marketing and profit. Trust me, I used to work for Disney, they have some talented and creative people working on certain projects for them but for the most part they are out only for the bottom line (especially the head honchos).
I'll defer to your Disney expertise.

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This site, I think, is a resource not only to share your stories but also a community to help hone them, and even though there's a lot of smut I think its also a place where real, engaging, interesting fiction can be found - one needs look no further than your own stories. And you aren't making money by posting stories here, so I'm not sure why the bottom line "brand management" stance needs to be taken.
I don't know that it "needs" to be taken, but that's my preference. What can I say? I like things tidy and pleasant in my little made-up corner of the world. In my postings, the good guys/girls always win and everybody loves and respects each other. Yes, I am consistently shallow in this regard. Bottom line? I'm not crafting art; I'm delivering what is (hopefully) solid, well-built entertainment. There are people out there who share my kinks and sense of humor. My goal is for them to know that each time they click on my name that they're in for a fun little ride. IMHO, comments like those in categories 1-6, above, interfere with that ride and therefore get the axe.

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And for me personally, I think even the very best at their craft should be willing to accept feedback in order to help them get even better. Even Pulitzer Prize winning writers still have editors. Michael Jordan was always constantly looking to improve and add new things to his game during his playing days even when it was clear that he was the best basketball player alive, and even of all time.

Likewise, I hope that you, despite your accomplishments, are still accepting of criticism and feedback in an effort to make yourself better constantly. The quest for constant self-improvement even when at the top of your craft is what separates the all-time elites from the "greats."
Your rhetoric is a smidge thick (I doubt MJ was eager to listen to every suggestion from the cheap seats), but I agree with most of your premise. I think the writers here who care are always looking to improve. Whether an anonymous commenter can supply that guidance needs to be decided on a case-by-case basis.

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You say that feedback that contains any ounce of criticism has been accepted before it has been deleted, but it seems to me from your dismissive tone (and I could be wrong, I hope so) that whenever you see a comment that isn't pure adulteration and contains even a hint of constructive criticism you roll your eyes, delete it and dismiss it with the attitude of "Let's see you try better."
Yep, you were wrong. My tone wasn't intended to be dismissive. It was intended to be succinct. Shorter's better. Always.

Though it doesn't factor into my decision to delete a comment, I have definitely flicked over to check to see if a commenter has posted something themselves. Some comments boil down to taste/style suggestions and they're best measured against the comenter's own craft.

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I hope I'm wrong (or if I'm right, that you change your tune) as I think you have potential to become a successful published author. But that won't come unless you are open to feedback and constructive criticism and using it to improve and hone your craft further.
So, wait, I can be awesome if I just do what you say? Cool.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:49 PM   #32
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This may be a good time to ask why there's a compulsion to care what anyone else does with the comments on their stories? It seems a clear MYOB issue to me.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:58 PM   #33
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This may be a good time to ask why there's a compulsion to care what anyone else does with the comments on their stories? It seems a clear MYOB issue to me.
'Cuz it's mean to delete people's comments. They worked hard on them. Kinda.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:01 AM   #34
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'Cuz it's mean to delete people's comments. They worked hard on them. Kinda.
Bullshit. I think it's too often that the commenters are too full of themselves and their own superiority.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:06 AM   #35
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Bullshit. I think it's too often that the commenters are too full of themselves and their own superiority.
Careful. Don't upset the critics. Oddly enough, I think criticizing them might upset them.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:15 AM   #36
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Careful. Don't upset the critics. Oddly enough, I think criticizing them might upset them.
Any more trolls on my field and they could set up a football team.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:58 AM   #37
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoFear View Post
To clear the air, I don't delete all negative feedback. I do delete certain kinds of feedback, including but not limited to, the following:

1. Anything delivered in an overtly hostile manner, from "your characters suck" to "what the fuck is this drivel doing on a top list?"
2. Commenter wanted a different flavor of smut (e.g., "Good story, why'd you have to wreck it with that butt stuff?")
3. Commenter didn't like the ending #1 (e.g., "I think Heather should be with Stacey 'cuz Stacey's awesome. Sam sucks. Heather shouldn't be with Sam. You ruined what could have been a good story since Heather didn't wind up with Stacey. Now your story stinks.")
4. Commenter didn't like the ending #2 -- God help me, this is the bane of the incest writer (e.g., "Wait? What happens next? You call that an ending? Do they stay together? Do they get married? How do they tell their parents? Is she pregnant? Do they have kids? Do the kids have flippers for hands? I can't believe you left it where you did. You wasted my time. You're lazy. You should have finished your story.")
5. Me-too-ing: "Your story reminds me of the time my girlfriend and her ex-babysitter and I got stoned then..."
6. "X is disgusting" where X=lesbian, anal, incest, or whatever.

I think we missed each other on this point. In my earlier post, I was trying to say that a commenter can always resort to posting something of their own to Lit, then gleefully exert as little or as much control as they like over the comments they receive. And I've got nothing against non-posters; I read here for half a dozen years before I posted anything. Plus, I get helpful comments from non-posters all the time.

I don't know that it "needs" to be taken, but that's my preference. What can I say? I like things tidy and pleasant in my little made-up corner of the world. In my postings, the good guys/girls always win and everybody loves and respects each other. Yes, I am consistently shallow in this regard. Bottom line? I'm not crafting art; I'm delivering what is (hopefully) solid, well-built entertainment. There are people out there who share my kinks and sense of humor. My goal is for them to know that each time they click on my name that they're in for a fun little ride. IMHO, comments like those in categories 1-6, above, interfere with that ride and therefore get the axe.

Yep, you were wrong. My tone wasn't intended to be dismissive. It was intended to be succinct. Shorter's better. Always.

Though it doesn't factor into my decision to delete a comment, I have definitely flicked over to check to see if a commenter has posted something themselves. Some comments boil down to taste/style suggestions and they're best measured against the comenter's own craft.
Awesome, I'm glad it was a misunderstanding. I thought you were trying to defend the practice of deleting each and every comment even if filled with a smidgeon of criticism or negative feedback.

Sorry for the disconnect. In the OP I wasn't talking about those six types of posts you were describing (I definitely understand why those would be worthy of deletion), I was talking about mild posts that had even a hint of constructive criticism that I saw getting deleted by certain authors. So I guess we're on the same page.

Quote:
So, wait, I can be awesome if I just do what you say? Cool.
You are awesome, I was just disappointed because I misunderstood you and thought you said you weren't open to any sort of criticism. Now that it's clear that you are (and I should have checked more thoroughly - looking at your post history, you have made posts in the past asking for feedback on your stories) everything's all good in the hood.


On another note, Bramblethorn, when can we expect your hot and sexy Kathy Lee Gifford porno story to be finished?
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:15 AM   #38
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Awesome, I'm glad it was a misunderstanding. I thought you were trying to defend the practice of deleting each and every comment even if filled with a smidgeon of criticism or negative feedback.
Well, there are those here, including me, who defend the author's right to delete whatever comments she/he damn well feels like deleting for whatever reason they have for doing so.

Again, why is it your concern what an author deletes? What insecurity or sense of superiority or need to show power over someone else motivates you to care as you so obviously have on this thread?

You've had several people explain to you that this is a free-use posting for enjoyment reader's Web site and is a privately owned Web site where the owners give the authors the power to delete whatever comments they want. What anal retentive need has gripped you that you won't accept that? If I go and read your stories here will I find ones that are so perfect that it's your mission in life to tell other writers here what they did wrong?
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:29 AM   #39
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Well, there are those here, including me, who defend the author's right to delete whatever comments she/he damn well feels like deleting for whatever reason they have for doing so.

Again, why is it your concern what an author deletes? What insecurity or sense of superiority or need to show power over someone else motivates you to care as you so obviously have on this thread?

You've had several people explain to you that this is a free-use posting for enjoyment reader's Web site and is a privately owned Web site where the owners give the authors the power to delete whatever comments they want. What anal retentive need has gripped you that you won't accept that? If I go and read your stories here will I find ones that are so perfect that it's your mission in life to tell other writers here what they did wrong?
No need for hostility. I'm perfectly understanding that under the current rules the author is allowed to delete whatever they want, I simply thought said practice would be a subject worthy of discussion.

My thoughts on the matter are certainly not due to any sense of self-satisfaction or some sort of confidence in myself or my own abilities (I can't write erotic scenes at all - all of my stories are humor stories), but largely due to my upbringing and belief that constructive criticism is very important to helping one develop as a writer (or in any other task, really). It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I feel like my own personal skills lend me to be especially capable of expressing criticism - in fact, it's basically the opposite - it's because I personally have found that accepting criticism and feedback has helped me develop tremendously.

I'm simply trying to express my personal viewpoints and I respect and understand the viewpoints of those who disagree (certainly those on the other side have raised some extremely valid points that have caused me to rethink certain positions), I just think its a topic worth discussing the merits of. It's not a black and white issue and I'm not being "anal" or stomping my feet about it, I just think its an issue worthy of both sides expressing their viewpoints.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:06 AM   #40
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I think it's your persistence that is hostile and irritating (and more than a little dense). You've received multiple explanations about how it works here.

A question, Clockwork. When you posted this comment the OP refers to, did you step up to posting it under your account name, or was it an anonymous comment?

And I think you've made clear what your belief is that others are obligated to follow. I just don't understand where you get off in so persistently pushing that others have to ascribe to your belief or should accept it as an obligation.

It's been explained to you that there's no such obligation on the Web site. You've stated your view. That's fine--for you. Why do you feel you have to repeatedly state it? It doesn't become any more of an obligation here just because you continually state you think it is an obligation.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:33 AM   #41
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As I've said before, I perfectly understand how it currently works here, I just think it's a subject worthy of discussion. My comment referred to in the OP was under my registered name, I don't post anonymous comments. I don't believe that my beliefs are an obligation for others to follow, but I do believe I have the right to express them, as I equally believe that people who have different opinions than me have the right to express their opinions as well. I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone else, merely expressing and discussing my personal thoughts, as others have the rights to do equally as well with their differing opinions. I am not sure what has constituted such rage and hostility in you and I hope that you can calm your anger and ad hominem attacks because I believe you have some very rational points but your anger and hostility are weighing them down.

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Old 01-25-2013, 08:40 AM   #42
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On another note, Bramblethorn, when can we expect your hot and sexy Kathy Lee Gifford porno story to be finished?
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:38 AM   #43
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No need for hostility. I'm perfectly understanding that under the current rules the author is allowed to delete whatever they want, I simply thought said practice would be a subject worthy of discussion.
It has been discussed. I'd say that it's a reasonable topic to discuss, but not terribly relevant to this website. This is a site for entertainment, it is not a place to learn to write or receive critiques, at least not officially. Certainly people do ask for feedback and critiques and they receive them. But it is not the purpose or goal of the site.

As many have said, this is a privately-owned and -run site. One of the features they included was allowing the author to control comments -- to allow some, none or all. Whatever an author wants to delete, if anything, is up to them.

You have a right to your opinion, and readers to theirs about stories, but this site and the authors are under no obligation to provide a platform for it if they don't wish to. You may think differently, and that's fine.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:32 PM   #44
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I hadn't realized this was that big of a deal.

I think it's a site meant primarily to entertain. Everything else comes second. As writers, of course we're going to seek feedback. Of course we want to hear the good kind and block out the bad. Who doesn't want comment after comment about how their story rocked and that it gave everyone orgasms for three weeks? And who doesn't hate that douche bag troll that trashed your story and called you a sick disgusting abomination for all of Lit to see?

My opinion? Who cares? If an author doesn't want garbage comments, he should be able to delete them. If he goes so far as to delete any comment except for the ones that make him/her seem like Aphrodite with a keyboard, then so what? That's their own dilemma to live with. Not mine.

Personally I just let it ride. If people say it sucked, and in all caps, so what. They'll trash your story and move on. If your story is good enough, it'll likely have one or two well written, well thought out comments to go with the ignorant ones, and people will notice those a lot more. I know if I'm story browsing and I see a trollish comment, the little people that live in my head hit ignore. Then I read the actual constructive comments about the story.

Freedom to choose, baby.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:43 PM   #45
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As writers, of course we're going to seek feedback.
That's key--that this is a false assertion. I'm willing to bet that most of the writers contributing stories to this Web site only are interested in praise and encouragement and looking for signs that what turns them on turns others on as well. The Web site is set up to accept that as fine. That's very selective in terms of feedback. It's simply falacious to assume that everyone is posting stories here to develop their writing skills. And it's arrogance to insist that they do so--or even that they should do so. (Not saying you're doing that--just that some folks here are grounding their discussion in false assumptions.)
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:17 PM   #46
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Truthfully I post for a lot of reasons. Writing is a hobby of mine, and I particularly like to tell stories. It is a muscle, I think, and I do hope to hone my skills. Feedback, negative or positive, helps me get better. I admit that when someone enjoys my stories, I like the feeling I get. Who wouldn't? But I don't think it's entirely wrong to post stories to get reactions, feedback, and that warm fuzzy feeling. In fact, we all do that. Why else tell a fictional story? To entertaining yes, but also to know that you can. If you weren't posting stories for others to enjoy, and to see that they do, why not write them privately and never show them to anyone?

I don't think it's entirely wrong to post for feedback. Maybe a little misguided, but not evil. After all, everyone wants to be reminded if they're doing it right. At the end of the day, I don't see that it matters. If your story is great, then that's awesome because I get to enjoy it. If it needs work that's fine too. I don't care why you wrote it. But I will try to send you a comment to tell you whether I liked it or not and why. That's my choice as a reader, and as an author, it's your choice whether or not to delete that comment.

I simply think that we can tell the difference between legit feedback and trollish hate, and we should have the freedom to responsibly manage these comments as we see fit.

That, or start a revolution.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:01 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by SecondCircle View Post
Truthfully I post for a lot of reasons. Writing is a hobby of mine, and I particularly like to tell stories. It is a muscle, I think, and I do hope to hone my skills. Feedback, negative or positive, helps me get better. I admit that when someone enjoys my stories, I like the feeling I get. Who wouldn't? But I don't think it's entirely wrong to post stories to get reactions, feedback, and that warm fuzzy feeling. In fact, we all do that. Why else tell a fictional story? To entertaining yes, but also to know that you can. If you weren't posting stories for others to enjoy, and to see that they do, why not write them privately and never show them to anyone?
Again, these are your opinons. You have no right to suppose them on anyone else. You can't (although some here are doing it) logically extrapolate from these suppositions to the right not to have your comments deleted if the story author here wants to do so for whatever reason they want to. They are operating within the system of the Web site and, if you translate your "beliefs" into their "obligations," you are the one operating from false assumptions.

This all boils down to the poster of negative comment wanting to show their superiority--not just to the author, who read it before deleting it, so that part of registering the comment has been accomplished, but to all other readers of the story. That's arrogance--and I might add, that most commenters don't have an ounce more knowledge of creative writing than the author they are commenting on does. There certainly isn't a way to demonstrate such expertise to the authors here than being an author here yourself and posting superlative examples of writing.

If the author actively asks for development feedback--either on this forum or attached to the story itself--sure, give it to them. If they don't, you have no right to assume they want development feedback and at that point the conversation is all about you and your need for attention, not them.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:34 PM   #48
DeYaKen
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I remove racist comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockworkBanana View Post
Not sure if this is the right board for this, feel free to move if not so.

Am I the only one annoyed by authors who delete every single bit of even slightly negative feedback?

I posted a comment on a (over three year old) story by a top author on this site. I said that I loved his other work but that this particular work was still good but not quite up to par with his previous work, and said that in this case I thought some character motivations weren't believable and I thought I explained my reasoning fairly well.

Within a day or so, my comment was deleted...despite the fact that it was on a story that was over three years old and the author has tons of different stories! I really lost a lot of respect for this author, especially since I put a lot of effort into the comment and thought I gave some pretty well thought out analysis.

I can understand why trolling comments should be deleted, or why you would want to delete something that just says "THIS STORY SUCKS!!!!!!", but it seems ridiculous to me that authors are allowed to delete every single comment they so desire, and thus some choose to delete every comment that isn't overwhelmingly positive (I mean, I still said the story was good and that he was an excellent author, I just had some criticism for parts of one story.)

Would it maybe be feasible to have some sort of situation where the author can choose to turn comments on or off, but if they choose to have comments turned on, they aren't allowed to cherrypick the comments themselves? (but obviously they and others can flag troll comments and ones that just say "THIS STORY SUCKS!!!" and have a mod look into it).
Clockwork bananna says it was a top author so I know it wasn't me.

I was once accused of doing this by an anonymous poster (Brave Huh) who couldn't post anything without making racist comments. (Yes he even hated Brits). I leave everything up even comments from HarryinVA. I try to read all of them, sometimes they are useful and some criticism I agree with.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:39 PM   #49
SecondCircle
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People are going to leave feedback if they want to. Doesn't necessarily mean it's all about them. Perhaps they just want to provide their thoughts. That's well within their rights on this site. And it's the right of the author to take them down if they want.

Who cares? Read, write, praise, complain... do what you want. If they want to comment, and it makes them feel good to comment, let 'em. It's a privilege they rarely get in the real world. What the hell, comment all you want.

Even the trolls. That's right, keep commenting, ye trolls. You make me appreciate the intelligible comments.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:29 PM   #50
sr71plt
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And if you're an author, delete any comment you want to delete without the least bit of guilt (that's what this thread is about--what an author is--or should be--"obligated" to do with comments).
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