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Old 01-17-2013, 05:09 PM   #126
Sean Renaud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julybaby04 View Post
You are a bit all over the place here......

My suggestion was not to take over jobs of other people...it was to help those whom truly just need the help. For example, with the plumber you spoke of....if someone on welfare is having plumbing issues and cannot afford to hire the plumber, having someone, like a neighbor, or could be called in to help would be a great thing. It would give them a sense of purpose, which would be really great.
So your idea is that if a poor person has plumbing skills (unlikely but possible) that they should be available to work, but only for those who can't afford a plumber? How do you plan to structure this? If these people are available to general public the downward spiral is rather predictable. Even without it it's not a good system to employ on any large scale. We want to pump money into those neighborhoods not just keep the status quo or worse.

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Originally Posted by julybaby04 View Post
I guess I am not understanding your position. Do you just want those on welfare to sit back and just receive checks and do nothing? I hear what you are saying about unemployment...but if the jobs are not there, how is that going to be changed?
Just because I know there is a problem doesn't mean I have the answer. Doesn't even mean that I have positively identified the problem, though I'm fairly certain I've got the problem rather well mapped out here.

The easiest way to change the jobs that aren't there is to pick something, we can debate over WHAT but pick something and raise the bar for all Americans where such a thing is simply adjust the market. The idea that everybody should be working was such a stupid idea that we really didn't adopt it until relatively recently.

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Originally Posted by julybaby04 View Post
What do you suggest to fix it? I was only suggesting that giving those who do receive welfare, and pay no taxes (like income) be given the chance to keep some dignity and have life purpose......
Most of them are already employed. You're over looking that even using the U6 (which includes retirees and students) unemployment is at no more than 16% and by the slightly more rational U3 it's under ten. So simple math tells you that 80% of these people (roughly) are already employed. You've got a solution in search of a problem. It's not that I'm not concerned about the final bit but we have much bigger problems to solve than that.

For the moment I suggest the same thing I suggest we do about terrorism. Ignore it and focus our energies on something that actually matters.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:22 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Sean Renaud View Post
Neither of which have anything that resembles a concrete definition. We as society define what is reasonable and to whom and what rights those around us do and don't enjoy.



Yes you do. Our forefathers put a down payment down sure, but it's up to use to maintain what was given to us and hopefully improve it for those who come after us. You can use what ever terminology you want. Whether it's reasonable taxes or paying what you owe. I won't argue semantics but yes you do owe the society that has given you so much and will continue to give until the day that you die.



Cute. Compete bullshit but at least it's cute.
Ahhh, so you are an unindicted, unconvicted felon. You must be in that you owe a debt to society.

Me? Nah, I'm not indebted. I'm not a felon, indicted, convicted or otherwise.

I hope there aren't to many others such as you with shit for brains who want to come around and collect my supposed "debt" to society. Of course I know understand why you want to disarm free men before you attempt to collect. Very prudent of you.

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Old 01-17-2013, 05:30 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
Ahhh, so you are an unindicted, unconvicted felon. You must be in that you owe a debt to society.

Me? Nah, I'm not indebted. I'm not a felon, indicted, convicted or otherwise.

I hope there aren't to many others such as you with shit for brains who want to come around and collect my supposed "debt" to society. Of course I know understand why you want to disarm free men before you attempt to collect. Very prudent of you.

Ishmael
I'm not a felon, but I'm, just like you a part of society. I owe it just like you do.

And I don't need nor want to disarm you. "Taking" what you owe doesn't require disarming you and nor does collection. You can attempt to rebel but that won't end well for you.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:42 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post

Actually the most recent election is, to my mind anyway, nothing more than a verification of my previous post. "Better" being defined as wanting the government to DO MORE for them. Never quite internalizing the fact that in order to 'do' for some means doing 'to' others. And those that do realize that rationalize the 'doing to' as merely the government meting out well deserved punishment for deeds real or imagined.

Ishmael


The "War on Guns" begins in a cycle where neither party has control over the White House, Congress and Senate...much the same as a Minority Government in a Parliamentary setting.

If anything is going to really happen in this political mix, it will require either:

a) party compromises; or
b) significant public demand.

I haven't seen any authoritative Polls yet, but I suspect we will also see a closely divided population when the Pollsters start putting out their results.

I think The People will drive this one.

Edit: Here's some fresh Polling....looks like Americans think Parents are a bigger problem than Guns....and many would rather see more armed guards Everywhere.

http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

Last edited by Lancecastor : 01-17-2013 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:04 PM   #130
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Did you know that until 1977 the NRA was in favor of Gun Control and actually lobbied for and in some cases drafted the earliest gun control laws for the government?

Quote:
In the early 1920s, the National Revolver Association—the NRA’s handgun training counterpart—proposed model legislation for states that included requiring a permit to carry a concealed weapon, adding five years to a prison sentence if a gun was used in a crime, and banning non-citizens from buying a handgun.

They also proposed that gun dealers turn over sales records to police and created a one-day waiting period between buying a gun and getting it—two provisions that the NRA opposes today.
http://www.alternet.org/suprising-unknown-history-nra
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:06 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
Did you know that until 1977 the NRA was in favor of Gun Control and actually lobbied for and in some cases drafted the earliest gun control laws for the government?



http://www.alternet.org/suprising-unknown-history-nra
Actually they still are. Most of the enhanced sentencing laws for any crime where a firearm was involved was drafted and supported by the NRA. And in many cases the proposals put forth by the NRA were more severe than those penalties enacted by the various states. Unfortunately those penalties are often plea bargained away in the courts to dispense with the case. In the meantime crack heads go to prison for 5 years for no other reason than being stupid.

They are also in the forefront of firearm safety training, including elementary schools.

The National Instant Background check system is also a product of the NRA lobby. As is the call for better records re. the mentally ill being included in those records.

Virtually every police force in the US is trained by NRA firearm instructors, the exception being large forces with their own instructors and even then those instructors got their instructor certification from the NRA.

The largest rank and file police organization in the US, the LEAA, is an ardent supporter of the NRA and the 2nd amendment.

On a side note it is interesting to note that sheriffs, nationwide, are overwhelmingly against draconian gun control measures while Police Chiefs, particularly in larger cities are almost uniformly in favor of said laws. The only reason I can come up with for this split is the fact that sheriffs are elected and police chiefs are essentially political appointees.

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Old 01-17-2013, 08:12 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
The "War on Guns" begins in a cycle where neither party has control over the White House, Congress and Senate...much the same as a Minority Government in a Parliamentary setting.

If anything is going to really happen in this political mix, it will require either:

a) party compromises; or
b) significant public demand.

I haven't seen any authoritative Polls yet, but I suspect we will also see a closely divided population when the Pollsters start putting out their results.

I think The People will drive this one.

Edit: Here's some fresh Polling....looks like Americans think Parents are a bigger problem than Guns....and many would rather see more armed guards Everywhere.

http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm
Is there any real surprise there?

All you have to do to see where all of this is going is to look at the electoral map. Count up the senators in that huge swath of the nation referred to as 'fly over' country. They, even Harry Reid, know that they vote for draconian control measures at their own electoral peril.

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Old 01-17-2013, 08:51 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
The "War on Guns" begins in a cycle where neither party has control over the White House, Congress and Senate...much the same as a Minority Government in a Parliamentary setting.

If anything is going to really happen in this political mix, it will require either:

a) party compromises; or
b) significant public demand.

I haven't seen any authoritative Polls yet, but I suspect we will also see a closely divided population when the Pollsters start putting out their results.

I think The People will drive this one.

Edit: Here's some fresh Polling....looks like Americans think Parents are a bigger problem than Guns....and many would rather see more armed guards Everywhere.

http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm
I suspect a minority Government in a parlimentary based system might have am easier time, as more often or not that is down to the country having more than two main politcial parties (or at least two main and a third party which can garner a decent percentage of the votes).
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:21 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Sean Renaud View Post
So your idea is that if a poor person has plumbing skills (unlikely but possible) that they should be available to work, but only for those who can't afford a plumber? How do you plan to structure this? If these people are available to general public the downward spiral is rather predictable. Even without it it's not a good system to employ on any large scale. We want to pump money into those neighborhoods not just keep the status quo or worse.

I am saying that if there is someone who needs help and a person who is on welfare can help them, then why not let them? It only helps build that person on welfare up. One never knows that in working in the community, without pay, may open a door for them....if nothing else, they are giving back.

Just because I know there is a problem doesn't mean I have the answer. Doesn't even mean that I have positively identified the problem, though I'm fairly certain I've got the problem rather well mapped out here.

The easiest way to change the jobs that aren't there is to pick something, we can debate over WHAT but pick something and raise the bar for all Americans where such a thing is simply adjust the market. The idea that everybody should be working was such a stupid idea that we really didn't adopt it until relatively recently.

First everyone is unemployed...then everyone is employed, even those on welfare. Adjust the market? How do you propose to do that...and what does that mean exactly? The idea that everyone should work is not stupid....it is the basis of a society where EVERYONE gives of themselves for the good of the whole....you speak about this often...that all need to do their part.

Most of them are already employed. You're over looking that even using the U6 (which includes retirees and students) unemployment is at no more than 16% and by the slightly more rational U3 it's under ten. So simple math tells you that 80% of these people (roughly) are already employed. You've got a solution in search of a problem. It's not that I'm not concerned about the final bit but we have much bigger problems to solve than that.

For the moment I suggest the same thing I suggest we do about terrorism. Ignore it and focus our energies on something that actually matters.
People working.....lowering unemployment.....people living their lives again without having to worry every moment about paying bills......people being encouraged to open businesses which help the community.....people feeling confident in the government (hopefully)......people stoping complaining about others having more and getting up and making a life for themselves......people taking responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming others....... all of that matters. All of that is a great focus for this whole country.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:06 AM   #135
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^^^^ I'm not even going to try to unfuck that. If you don't know how to use a function it's best not to try.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:34 AM   #136
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^^^^ I'm not even going to try to unfuck that. If you don't know how to use a function it's best not to try.
Seconded.

On the other note ...

I work at a store that sells ammunition, and ever since the Connecticut shooting, it's been nearly impossible to get rifle shells and bullets. All of our chain stores have been told it's going to be a minimum of four months before we even receive one box of rounds.
It's not even that - gun safes, licenses ... I live on the skirts of rural Kansas amid more rednecks that I'd ever thought to shake a stick at, and they're all losing their damn minds; Never had I given our 2nd Amendment a single extra thought until I had this job.

If anyone's getting fucked, it's anybody that doesn't wanna kill people ... That tiny little thing called the Black Market. Joy. Limitless munition and access to firearms for green. Fab.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:30 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post

On a side note it is interesting to note that sheriffs, nationwide, are overwhelmingly against draconian gun control measures while Police Chiefs, particularly in larger cities are almost uniformly in favor of said laws. The only reason I can come up with for this split is the fact that sheriffs are elected and police chiefs are essentially political appointees.

Ishmael

I think that's an important disctinction, because it also closely matches Rural vs Urban law enforcement.

Rural gun use is a different animal than urban gun use.

Most of the "bad" things associated with gun ownership happen in urban or suburban areas.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:33 AM   #138
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I think that's an important disctinction, because it also closely matches Rural vs Urban law enforcement.

Rural gun use is a different animal than urban gun use.

Most of the "bad" things associated with gun ownership happen in urban or suburban areas.
It also has to do with electability of sheriffs and appointed positions. You do not become Chief of Police in Bloomberg's New York if you state, "I think privately owned guns take some of the burden off of our overworked police force".
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:39 AM   #139
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It also has to do with electability of sheriffs and appointed positions. You do not become Chief of Police in Bloomberg's New York if you state, "I think privately owned guns take some of the burden off of our overworked police force".
"I think privately owned guns take some of the burden off of our overworked police force" said no police chief ever.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:41 AM   #140
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It also has to do with electability of sheriffs and appointed positions. You do not become Chief of Police in Bloomberg's New York if you state, "I think privately owned guns take some of the burden off of our overworked police force".
That's a red herring.

People don't decide to shoot or not shoot each other on the basis of whether their police chiefs are elected or appointed.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:46 AM   #141
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I think that's an important disctinction, because it also closely matches Rural vs Urban law enforcement.

Rural gun use is a different animal than urban gun use.

Most of the "bad" things associated with gun ownership happen in urban or suburban areas.
I'll make a further distinction. Nationwide the rate of gun violence is relatively constant as a % of population. This, quite naturally, leads to bigger numbers in high population density areas. So while the numbers are larger, the actual rate of incidents per 100K population is the same as in rural areas. (There are some anomalies, like Chicago.)

The one huge difference is the incidents of rampage shootings which almost exclusively occur in urban/suburban areas. I have no clue as to why that is. Is it because the higher density areas are target rich environments, because there is a higher probability of there being homicidal maniacs, that high density areas actually tend to cause homicidal maniacs (the Harvard 'Rat' studies almost suggest this), or because rural areas are more likely to have armed response nearby to stop the shooter before he/she really gets started?

Finding the answer to that question might be worthy of a study if it weren't for the fact that there is such a small sample base to work with.

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Old 01-18-2013, 08:48 AM   #142
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That's a red herring.

People don't decide to shoot or not shoot each other on the basis of whether their police chiefs are elected or appointed.
You missed the point. It's not about the people, it's about the candidates response to the Mayors questions.

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Old 01-18-2013, 08:54 AM   #143
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I'll make a further distinction. Nationwide the rate of gun violence is relatively constant as a % of population. This, quite naturally, leads to bigger numbers in high population density areas. So while the numbers are larger, the actual rate of incidents per 100K population is the same as in rural areas. (There are some anomalies, like Chicago.)

The one huge difference is the incidents of rampage shootings which almost exclusively occur in urban/suburban areas. I have no clue as to why that is. Is it because the higher density areas are target rich environments, because there is a higher probability of there being homicidal maniacs, that high density areas actually tend to cause homicidal maniacs (the Harvard 'Rat' studies almost suggest this), or because rural areas are more likely to have armed response nearby to stop the shooter before he/she really gets started?

Finding the answer to that question might be worthy of a study if it weren't for the fact that there is such a small sample base to work with.

Ishmael
I thought I saw something that said the rate was notably higher in 9 states, and the spikes were urban...rates, not raw numbers.

You're mistaken, at any rate...here's an example from Wikipedia showing the spread:

Quote:
Prevalence of homicide and violent crime is greatest in low income urban areas of the United States. In metropolitan areas, the homicide rate in 2005 was 6.1 per 100,000 compared with 3.5 in non-metropolitan counties. In U.S. cities with populations greater than 250,000, the mean homicide rate was 12.1 per 100,000
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:21 AM   #144
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I thought I saw something that said the rate was notably higher in 9 states, and the spikes were urban...rates, not raw numbers.

You're mistaken, at any rate...here's an example from Wikipedia showing the spread:
I was going by state numbers. I don't dispute the wiki numbers (now that I'm on my second cup of coffee). The gang bangers alone are enough to make the difference in the spread. And quite frankly I really don't care how many of each other they whack. The more the merrier, except that the morons tend to engage in drive by shooting and are notoriously bad shots leading to innocents being hit. I wonder if any one truly believes that any law is going to have an impact on those clowns?

Regardless, those numbers suggest the "Harvard Rat Study" even more.

But those are not the type of shootings that lead to the media shit storm we're seeing today. It's the demented rampage shooter walking into a mall, theater, or school.

There has always been a conjunction between rampage shooters and serious mental health issues. I think that most every one can agree that if you are going to tackle the rampage shooter issue, mental health is the place to start. And that is where the debate should be focused. The Utopianists think that they can somehow make all the firearms in the nation disappear overnight. As a matter of real practicality, both logistical and political, I think we agree that that just isn't going to happen.

So how to deal with the mental health issue in a way that we can identify the seriously high probability homicidal nuts while at the same time not create a huge database filled with false positives? Our experience with the "No Fly" list hasn't been a stellar example of government efficiency.

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:42 AM   #145
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since when do criminals obey the law?
Every day.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:44 AM   #146
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The states with the highest percentage of gun ownership, have the highest rate of gun deaths per 100K.

http://www.vpc.org/press/1110gundeath.htm
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:45 AM   #147
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But those are not the type of shootings that lead to the media shit storm we're seeing today. It's the demented rampage shooter walking into a mall, theater, or school.

There has always been a conjunction between rampage shooters and serious mental health issues.

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True that...all the more reason for a better background check schema.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:00 AM   #148
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The states with the highest percentage of gun ownership, have the highest rate of gun deaths per 100K.

http://www.vpc.org/press/1110gundeath.htm
Why don't those numbers match the FBI's UCR? Hmmmmm?

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Old 01-18-2013, 10:02 AM   #149
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True that...all the more reason for a better background check schema.
Not even the NRA is disputing that. The issue is what are the thresholds that are going to be used to deny an individual their constitutional right(s) and who's going to be making those decisions?

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Old 01-18-2013, 10:07 AM   #150
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Why don't those numbers match the FBI's UCR? Hmmmmm?

Ishmael
I never claimed they did.
Perhaps you should do your own research.
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