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View Poll Results: Question: Is it rape if a girl is born and raised in a harem and expects to be some
Yes - unconditionally 11 36.67%
Yes - if she doesn't like her new owner 5 16.67%
No - because she has never expected anything else 8 26.67%
No -because her opinion doesn't count - she's a slave 5 16.67%
No -because her opinion doesn't count - she's a woman 1 3.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-03-2012, 04:34 AM   #1
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What is rape (clarification by democracy)?

Question: Is it rape if a girl is born and raised in a harem and expects to be some man's slave?

In writing a traditional Middle Eastern harem story I am faced with the dilemma of what counts as rape. A junior concubine in a man's harem, literally his property with no rights except what he allows, gives birth to a female child. That girl child is raised entirely in the harem and has never seen a man who is not a eunuch, and is a beautiful 18 year old virgin when she is given/sold to another man and goes into his harem. Naturally with a gorgeous, well developed virgin available he takes her to his bed and fucks her every which way.

Is that rape?
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:15 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopercharmbrights View Post
Question: Is it rape if a girl is born and raised in a harem and expects to be some man's slave?

...

Is that rape?
Yes - Unconditionally.

Your problem is, "does my opinion matter?"

Your question is really about how people might accept the argument of 'different culture, different standards', but for you average, western person, there is no ambiguity. It is non-consensual - period.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:57 AM   #3
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No -because her opinion doesn't count - she's a slave

Lets face it, slavery exists. So do harems. Regardless of what our western democratic ideals may be, they don't change laws everywhere in the world just because we think they should.

Besides, it would kill the story. She should just dutifully perform her tasks and do so without complaint. Seems to me, they would consider it an honor if chosen to be his highness' entertainment for the night.

Because of this, I could see some friction between the other concubines. Even more so between the concubines and the wife/wives. I would think the wives would do whatever they could to prevent a concubine slave from being elevated to wife status.

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Old 01-03-2012, 08:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRaven View Post
No -because her opinion doesn't count - she's a slave

Lets face it, slavery exists. So do harems. Regardless of what our western democratic ideals may be, they don't change laws everywhere in the world just because we think they should.
Irrelevant. Rape is non-consensual sex. It would be rape which is the OP's question. whether or not it is legal, or what the moral implications would be are completely different matters.

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Besides, it would kill the story. She should just dutifully perform her tasks and do so without complaint. Seems to me, they would consider it an honor if chosen to be his highness' entertainment for the night.
As a story, I couldn't agree more. I like reading non-con.

*laughing* but it's still rape.
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:24 AM   #5
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Legal Definitions

Legal definitions vary- not only from country to country, but also from state to state within the US.

In most cases, within the US, I think positive consent is required for sex. In the absence of such consent, it's rape. That "positive consent" thing is a slippery slope, though; we violate it sort of like we violate the speed limits. If we don't get caught, it ain't rape, in other words.
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:55 AM   #6
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I think....
its not rape in a traditional sense, because she would give consent.
As a girl raised in a harem she would have spent her life knowing she
would be sold, so she would never think of saying no or objecting.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:46 PM   #7
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Assuming she resists it's rape. But, if, as JRaven suggests, she actually welcomes hus advances and feels honored by them, then I don't think it's rape.

I wrestle with this all the time, as I abhor physical coercion, but am turned on by stories of naive, reluctant wives being "tricked" or manipulated into infidelity. Where to draw the line is often unclear, though I have a hard line at anything that causes pain. Of course, I always try to soothe my conscious by having the woman enjoy the sex to a greater degree than ever before.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:55 PM   #8
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Rape is a law in this country and I don't believe there are any ways around this black and white issue - in this country. Now I'm not an expert in any Middle East country's laws but I would say that it is also a black and white issue regarding whatever country you are talking about. I don't doubt one bit that there is a country somewhere (probably more than one) where using your scenario it would not be a rape. Maybe it's kind of like when slavery was legal in the United States. Can you actually rape property that is yours?
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:42 PM   #9
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In the middle east women have far less rights, so the laws are probably more in the men's favor there. But from a western point of view it is rape, no argument. The "she never knew better" argument doesn't change the fact that it is still rape. Now if the slave in question actually seeks it herself or feels honored by it, that changes everything of course.
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:58 PM   #10
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Lots of jumping to conclusions here. It is rape if she says no, which snoopy never says happens. So let's analyze the conditions, she grew up in a harem, never having sex because there isn't a guy handy who can and will. She also only knows one way of life, serving a man in any way he wants. The other wives and concubines are happy so she wants to be happy like that. Then she gets sold, so now she has a man to serve in bed, she finally can have sex.

Sex drive is a powerful thing, if you have plenty of food you want sex. Since in her new place, sex is how she has food, do you think she would say no? Even if the guy isn't exactly handsome she's still saying yes.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:40 PM   #11
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For the sake of writing it, it would be up to the author if it is rape.

Does she go unwillingly? does he force himself on her? the yes its rape. However, if she goes willingly, if she has been raised to consider this her duty then not really its up to how it is betrayed.

As for culture differences Saudi's are knuckle dragging slobs who still regard women as second class citizens. What they do over there however is there business.

Now to the OP, why the fuck do you care?

I clicked on your site, all the garbage you write is about women being ravaged and raped by "natives" because you're too much of pussy to say the word nigger. And half of your crap was "started" by someone else.

Are you asking because you want people to say its rape so you can stroke that much harder to it? So was it your mom or a wife that has feminized you to the point your only outlet is rape stories.

I've spent the last 12 years teaching martial arts in a volunteer program at a shelter for battered women.

My dream in life is for one of them to run into and kill someone like you.

Go back to stealing other peoples fantasies.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emap View Post
Lots of jumping to conclusions here. It is rape if she says no, which snoopy never says happens. So let's analyze the conditions, she grew up in a harem, never having sex because there isn't a guy handy who can and will. She also only knows one way of life, serving a man in any way he wants. The other wives and concubines are happy so she wants to be happy like that. Then she gets sold, so now she has a man to serve in bed, she finally can have sex.

Sex drive is a powerful thing, if you have plenty of food you want sex. Since in her new place, sex is how she has food, do you think she would say no? Even if the guy isn't exactly handsome she's still saying yes.
"Snoopy" is a rapist wannabe. You're wasting your time forming an articulate answer when he is really looking to have his fantasy fulfilled.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
For the sake of writing it, it would be up to the author if it is rape.

Does she go unwillingly? does he force himself on her? the yes its rape. However, if she goes willingly, if she has been raised to consider this her duty then not really its up to how it is betrayed. ...
I don't see how the author has a choice; either it is or it isn't rape by western standards.

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Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
... Now to the OP, why the fuck do you care? ...
Because some sites (e.g.this one) don't approve of rape stories.

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Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
... I clicked on your site, all the garbage you write is about women being ravaged and raped by "natives" because you're too much of pussy to say the word nigger. ...
Obviously you only read the blurb about the top two books listed. For example there isn't a nigger in sight in the Merciful Nun or the Space series.

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Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
... And half of your crap was "started" by someone else. ...
Since when has one book out of eighteen been "half"? I did complete one book after the death of its author, at the request of his publisher.

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Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
... Are you asking because you want people to say its rape so you can stroke that much harder to it? So was it your mom or a wife that has feminized you to the point your only outlet is rape stories. ...
It was a surgeon who removed my prostate, but I wrote the books before that.

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Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
... I've spent the last 12 years teaching martial arts in a volunteer program at a shelter for battered women.

My dream in life is for one of them to run into and kill someone like you. ...
Are you suggesting that murder is acceptable, but rape is not?

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Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
... Go back to stealing other peoples fantasies.
I thought this forum was actually to share fantasies?
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
"Snoopy" is a rapist wannabe. You're wasting your time forming an articulate answer when he is really looking to have his fantasy fulfilled.
Since you are sorta new I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on intelligence.

I wasn't talking to snoopy, I was talking to everyone else that is saying a woman who only knows one thing and is bought for sex is raped. As for the rest of your idiotic rants, have you never read a romance novel? I will summarize since obviously they are too intelligent for you. Women has problem, and is lonely. She meets man of her dreams who then makes problem go away and shoves her on the bed and has his wicked way with her. They all live happily ever after. There is never do you want to have sex, nope, she's always tossed down, clothes ripped off and he has his wicked way with her.

According to your thinking, all romance novels are rapes. There's what you think, and then there is the actual thing. Wander away and read up on what an actual rape is before you turn into a complete moron please.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:21 AM   #15
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It's not rape, but it's still wrong...
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emap View Post
They all live happily ever after. There is never do you want to have sex, nope, she's always tossed down, clothes ripped off and he has his wicked way with her.

According to your thinking, all romance novels are rapes.
I don't see how you get to that conclusion. As you say, they live happily ever after. It isn't rape if the woman wants to be tossed down, her clothes ripped off, etc. And in many of those romance novels the women are doing as much ripping as the men, so I really don't get your point.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:01 AM   #17
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Seems to me the issue isn't rape, per se, but slavery. And the one question is - is the story set in the present or some imagined historical past when slavery was practiced legally?

Slavery in all societies today, including all in the ME, is illegal. Anything that happens to a "slave" today is illegal, including rape. Going back in time though, we can judge slave owners who had sex with their slaves - be it Arab or American - as rape - but in the days of slavery, slaves in the "civilized" West were not considered human beings and had no legal rights, thus it was not rape.

In the "barbaric" Arab world, slaves, when it was practiced, were never considered non-human. And, like the rest of the world, rape didn't exist as a crime. When did rape become a crime in the US? I would imagine it was only fairly recently.

Further, traditionally speaking, a harem was not made up of slaves. The harem was the women's quarters that included wives and daughters and "concubines" - most of whom were daughters of other wealthy and powerful men given to forge poltiical and economic ties. Counter to Islamic laws, women were not given any choice in marriage or concubinage - just as in the "civilized" West. Marriage was (and remains, in my opinion) a highly patriarchical practice of ownership over a woman's sexuality.

In summary, 1) there needs to be a time frame to whether one can consider sex with a slave as rape; and, 2) there needs to be greater historical understanding of what is a harem.

Might I suggest "Dreams of Tresspass: Tales of a Harem Girlhood" by Fatima Mernissi - an autobiographical account of the creative powers of women locked inside an oppressive, closed-off world...
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:36 AM   #18
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Knowledge versus ignorance

A timeline and history has very little to do with it when it happens today(with internet, education et al) in nearly the same form as it happened for thousands of years in some parts of the world... Think of the tribes in greater russia like the Kossaks, Kyrgyz, Kazakhs etc... they stole women from another tribe or village and then forcibly married them, then and now, in some places still do today in many rural areas.
Rape? or tradition? and what do the women think of it over there when their mothers were in the same position, their brothers will do the same thing to get their wives and so on.
In this case I think its a matter of knowledge which leads to empowerment, the girl doesnt know any different, so even though she refuses and fights for her dignity, it is to be expected and she soon resigns herself to her new life. When they were sold as slaves, the same mindframe exists... when there is no knowledge of a workable alternative, the women accepts their lot in their society and culture.
Most arguments against are made from an educated, cultured and civilised perspective... but you cannot compare that women to a western woman who definately would not expect those circumstances and thus, it would be a severe shock and trauma to her to be subjected to it. I dont want to condone and excuse barbaric practices here, but it is not the same thing when it happens in the middle east, the US , the Russian steppe or Europe.
Only recently in some of these areas has women been enlightened to the point of starting to question these practices and realising they have a choice in the matter... and therefor the right to legal councel and protection.
Think of Africa where in many areas, even countries, rape as a definition does not exist, a women is there to submit to a man sexually and that is it, she is not allowed to say no. Cultural differences for sure, but more so, cultural ignorance and immaturity for the most part.
You will even find mothers' protecting or defending their sons rights to 'abuse' women, wives or girls that are deemed a fair target, that is how culturally entrenched and conditioned women are to their lot in primitive societies, good examples are arab or islamic society, africans and russian(tribal or rural areas). These women expect men to behave in a sexually superior manner by taking what they want, regardless of resistance or consent and thereby giving up their right to their own lives and or bodies.
There are many examples today of this in online resources or literature.
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:41 AM   #19
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Thank you to all those who offered an opinion.

The only one which I would like clarified is Sirhugs': You say "it isn't rape but it is wrong". In what way is it wrong?

For all of you, a small extension to the question:
In Fiddler on the Roof (set in Russia c.1900) there is a scene where the parents reminisce about their marriage and Golde sings "The first time I met you was on our wedding day..." How is an arranged marriage such as that different from the situation I described, or that described by Lost_Yonder, or that of Princess May of Teck for that matter?
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
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A timeline and history has very little to do with it when it happens today(with internet, education et al) in nearly the same form as it happened for thousands of years in some parts of the world... .
I beg to differ, obviously! Timeline has everything to do with the law - if you are going to label something rape then you have to know if "rape" as a concept and as a law existed or not. If it didn't exist, then it isn't rape - we can't be anachronistic. That doesn't mean we can't judge it based on our moral values - but that is different than definaing something from a legal perspective.

Today, rape as both a concept and as a legal principle exists in every country. You obviously haven't travelled much - and certainly never to Africa. What countries might you be refering to? Rape happens everywhere - including once every minute here in the US - does that make it an American tradition?

Rape isn't about any particular culture - Arab, African, tribal, American - it is about patriarchy, which is universal in all cultures. It takes on different forms in different cultures. Take for example the Yanomami tribe in the rainforests of Brazil. Men are "allowed" to rape women from neighboring villages/clans. But the women don't submit to it - they fight it, they run away, they hide - they are well aware they are being sexually violated.

It isn't the awareness of being raped, nor the cultural idioms through which it is practiced (human trafficking, slavery, concubinage, date/marital, forced marriage, etc.) - it is the law that defines rape as rape. If a society accepts concubinage, for example, but forbids other forms of non-marital forced sex, then rape is defined in a particular way.

It is impossible to create blanket categories of "tradition" when traditions are complex, contridictory, and changing!
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Old 01-09-2012, 07:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopercharmbrights View Post
Thank you to all those who offered an opinion.

The only one which I would like clarified is Sirhugs': You say "it isn't rape but it is wrong". In what way is it wrong?

For all of you, a small extension to the question:
In Fiddler on the Roof (set in Russia c.1900) there is a scene where the parents reminisce about their marriage and Golde sings "The first time I met you was on our wedding day..." How is an arranged marriage such as that different from the situation I described, or that described by Lost_Yonder, or that of Princess May of Teck for that matter?
because though it is not rape, slavery in itself is wrong...
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:17 AM   #22
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I beg to differ, obviously! Timeline has everything to do with the law - if you are going to label something rape then you have to know if "rape" as a concept and as a law existed or not. If it didn't exist, then it isn't rape - we can't be anachronistic.
Rape can exist without laws. Without laws there just isn't a punishment for it. And you can argue that if there isn't a law to forbid it, it is allowed. But that doesn't make it any less wrong. Rape is still rape.

Like we all know what sagging pants are. Yet most of us don't live in Illinois where sagging pants are banned by law. So laws aren't needed to have an understanding of a concept.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:18 AM   #23
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[quote=dutchsmurf;39628639]Rape can exist without laws. Without laws there just isn't a punishment for it. And you can argue that if there isn't a law to forbid it, it is allowed. But that doesn't make it any less wrong. Rape is still rape.

Rape is still rape. I think with a little research you could find at least 100 different kinds of rape, and probably even more definitions. Rape is rape, in whose dictionary. Without our knowing what you mean, the statement doesn't make sense.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:07 PM   #24
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I voted it's still rape because basically the ideas with it today are affirmative consent--i.e. If she doesn't say "Yes" when she is unimpaired, it's rape. Being conditioned to accept it doesn't change that it's still a violation of the woman's body, slave or not. It's just like how a woman being drunk or stoned doesn't mean she can consent to sex--brainwashing would fall under the same category in my opinion. Brainwashing/conditioning is an impairment the same as drugs or alcohol.
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:21 AM   #25
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Besides, it would kill the story. She should just dutifully perform her tasks and do so without complaint. Seems to me, they would consider it an honor if chosen to be his highness' entertainment for the night.[img]http://www.***********/g.gif[/img]
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