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Old 12-05-2012, 11:08 PM   #1
Lancecastor
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Vanilla Conversion

Hey, it's been years since I posted anything over here.

(I started on Lit on the BDSM forum about ten years ago, then moved over to the GB after a year or so.)

So, hey.

I've done a pretty much full on Vanilla Conversion with a woman over the past three years and thought it might make for an interesting discussion over here.

I've trained her to be a good and loving submissive and it's good stuff.

So, here it is, the kick-off post.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:51 PM   #2
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Then she wasn't.

It's like gay conversion. Maybe she had never thought about this shit before, maybe had not found the right person, maybe if you got hit on the head and had personality-altering amnesia and left her for a tea towel, she might do something else with her sexuality.

Those "gay converts" are extremely religious low sex drive likely Kinsey 3.5's in a lot of cases who just want something badly enough.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:29 AM   #3
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You don't 'convert' someone, you bring out what was in them but never had been explored. Someone who gets nothing from bondage is not going to be 'converted' into a rope queen, someone who gets nothing out of corporal punishment is going to turn into a pain slut, and someone who isn't by nature sub isn't going to turn into one. It is very much what Michelangelo said about doing a statue, he didn't carve the rock into a statue, he brought out the statue that was already in the rock. I think kink can be hidden by a wall of fear and ignorance, buried from fear of what people would think, or maybe simply not having any exposure to it at all, but if it ain't there, you aren't going to 'convert' someone to it, and nothing in my 30 years in this scene has ever led me to believe differently.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njlauren View Post
You don't 'convert' someone, you bring out what was in them but never had been explored. Someone who gets nothing from bondage is not going to be 'converted' into a rope queen, someone who gets nothing out of corporal punishment is going to turn into a pain slut, and someone who isn't by nature sub isn't going to turn into one. It is very much what Michelangelo said about doing a statue, he didn't carve the rock into a statue, he brought out the statue that was already in the rock. I think kink can be hidden by a wall of fear and ignorance, buried from fear of what people would think, or maybe simply not having any exposure to it at all, but if it ain't there, you aren't going to 'convert' someone to it, and nothing in my 30 years in this scene has ever led me to believe differently.
Says you.

I say differently.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:54 PM   #5
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I am not sure that I would like to have a vanilla conversion done on me. It sounds painful.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:09 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by kiwi_submissive View Post
I am not sure that I would like to have a vanilla conversion done on me. It sounds painful.
Bend over and trust me.

Or vice versa.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:30 PM   #7
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Come on everybody, settle down. Let the man talk. Let's hear this story, huh?
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:52 PM   #8
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Come on everybody, settle down. Let the man talk. Let's hear this story, huh?
Well maybe he should have opened the discussion with his story and not a "kick off post" and support his views with more than "I say differently." I know there is interest but spit it out.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:02 PM   #9
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Well maybe he should have opened the discussion with his story and not a "kick off post" and support his views with more than "I say differently." I know there is interest but spit it out.
yes, there seems to be a lack of the skills he will need in order to tell anything. But maybe that's just debate. Plenty of authors have problems in discussion.

I'm girding myself for some nausea, to be honest-- but I could be pleasantly surprised.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:24 PM   #10
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Thanks for the warm welcome; back to the topic at hand.

So-called lifestylers often take the position that there is no such thing as a "vanilla conversion".

The response is either the person already was kinky but repressed or unaware.

Or there has actually been no "conversion" and the the person is really just dallying, a tourist who read the 50 Shades trilogy or watched The Secretary.

Of course the trouble with those knee jerk reactions is they do the very thing a BDSM Lifestyler rails against...they are labels, judgements, preconceived notions, etc.

I'bve always thought lifestyler women dislike coverted vanilla newby subs partly out of a form of competitive jealousy, just as old Doms look down their noses at noob Doms.

As if there's a BDSM Union and you need a certain number of Hours in before you can pass Probation.

Silly stuff, really.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:12 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post


Silly stuff, really.
Not nearly as silly as never getting to the point and telling the story. That is silly stuff, really.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
Thanks for the warm welcome; back to the topic at hand.

So-called lifestylers often take the position that there is no such thing as a "vanilla conversion".

The response is either the person already was kinky but repressed or unaware.

Or there has actually been no "conversion" and the the person is really just dallying, a tourist who read the 50 Shades trilogy or watched The Secretary.

Of course the trouble with those knee jerk reactions is they do the very thing a BDSM Lifestyler rails against...they are labels, judgements, preconceived notions, etc.

I'bve always thought lifestyler women dislike coverted vanilla newby subs partly out of a form of competitive jealousy, just as old Doms look down their noses at noob Doms.

As if there's a BDSM Union and you need a certain number of Hours in before you can pass Probation.

Silly stuff, really.
Au contraire. New femsubs present a complete zero threat to me, and unless queer, zero sexual interest. I'm open to a lot of things, I realize that there are less fixed sexual identities out there up to a point. If someone tries kink and is in love with it, guess what...they're pervs. If someone tries it and does not, guess what - they're not.

I think this idea that anyone can and will is complete bullshit, that's all. I smell a steaming pile of the usual horse shit, which is that all women are submissive, in the background of this statement. They're just waiting for magic penis to show them the way and the light.

OK, I like conversion fantasies myself, with the understanding that they're fantasies, and any guy who will suck a dick for me would suck a dick anyway. Why don't you try this experiment - Go gay. One hundred percent. Make it a project. Do your best to excel, you're no quitter! Or if that's too attractive, why don't you get it up for something that you find completely abhorrent, if conversion of A into B is possible.

You can't. If she wasn't she couldn't.

You want to hear that you have a big dick and superpowers. Have your girl tell you that, then. You want to hear you've performed some feat of sex magic. No, you just found a compatible partner.

Want a party? So have a lot of us. That's always cool. But you no more "made her kinky" than I've "made my partner" TG.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
yes, there seems to be a lack of the skills he will need in order to tell anything. But maybe that's just debate. Plenty of authors have problems in discussion.

I'm girding myself for some nausea, to be honest-- but I could be pleasantly surprised.
You will not be.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:07 PM   #14
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Another thing that disgusts me with this whole meme is this notion that vanilla people do not maintain the fundamental right to be left the fuck alone to enjoy whatever cupcake of a sex life makes them happy. Because we're what - better?
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:22 PM   #15
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Another thing that disgusts me with this whole meme is this notion that vanilla people do not maintain the fundamental right to be left the fuck alone to enjoy whatever cupcake of a sex life makes them happy. Because we're what - better?
THIS THIS THIS! IF this woman really *wasn't* kinky, in any way, honestly wasn't submissive in any way shape or form (including repressed and denied submissiveness), then what this poster is saying is that he raped her soul. He forced her to become something she wasn't, because *he* didn't want her to be vanilla. That's SICK.
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Quotes from my current in-progress novel:

“I understand. We can take things slow… And okay, that may be the wrong phrase since we’ve already slept together, but the more relationship-type things, I’m not going to push you, alright?”

"Remy gently grabbed her arm and pulled her close, lips meeting softly. I bit my own lip and watched as their kiss slowly deepened, watched as Remy's hand slowly rested against the back of Allison's neck to pull her closer. This was the part where I was supposed to get jealous, right? Speak up, ask what the hell was going on? But I couldn't. I couldn't ruin the moment because no matter what I *should* have been feeling, I wasn't."

"Surely if I was going to be concerned about any of her destructive habits I *should* be attempting to talk to her about the drugs… But that felt like a much more difficult thing to approach then her promiscuity."
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:28 PM   #16
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It is very much what Michelangelo said about doing a statue, he didn't carve the rock into a statue, he brought out the statue that was already in the rock.
But obviously Michelangelo was full of shit when he said that.

My unpopular position is that everyone (who is kinky) is converted at one point or another, but nothing is concrete anyway. It's more akin to drug addiction than anything like sexual orientation, which cannot be "converted". However, you can "convert" a clean person into a crackhead and they may very well come clean again at some point. Because like harder drugs, harder sex is more intense on a neurological level (adrenaline, dopamine, etc), therefor more pleasurable, more desirable. So they keep pursuing it, the lesser (vanilla) becomes more unfulfilling.

Last edited by echoplex : 12-06-2012 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:11 PM   #17
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But obviously Michelangelo was full of shit when he said that.

My unpopular position is that everyone (who is kinky) is converted at one point or another, but nothing is concrete anyway. It's more akin to drug addiction than anything like sexual orientation, which cannot be "converted". However, you can "convert" a clean person into a crackhead and they may very well come clean again at some point. Because like harder drugs, harder sex is more intense on a neurological level (adrenaline, dopamine, etc), therefor more pleasurable, more desirable. So they keep pursuing it, the lesser (vanilla) becomes more unfulfilling.
Maybe, for *some* people, that might be true. The chemical changes during different types of sex may "convert" a person into doing something they had never thought of before, because the chemical changes make it feel good.

But there are MANY people for who it would NEVER feel good, regardless of so-called adrenaline/endorphines/etc. Simple example: My gf once bit my ear during sex. I was already "high" on sex, and yet the "chemicals" did nothing whatsoever to stop me from immediately stopping the sex and going "OUCH don't ever do that again!". And yes, she did attempt it again, a few times, over the length of our relationship. And each time brought the same response from me. I simply couldn't BE "converted" to something that made those deep-down instincts yell "stop!". And I have to say, anyone who FORCES someone to convert whether they want to or not, is a complete bastard. I'm sure someone could force me to "accept" ear-biting by punishments or mental manipulation, but it wouldn't be "right".
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Quotes from my current in-progress novel:

“I understand. We can take things slow… And okay, that may be the wrong phrase since we’ve already slept together, but the more relationship-type things, I’m not going to push you, alright?”

"Remy gently grabbed her arm and pulled her close, lips meeting softly. I bit my own lip and watched as their kiss slowly deepened, watched as Remy's hand slowly rested against the back of Allison's neck to pull her closer. This was the part where I was supposed to get jealous, right? Speak up, ask what the hell was going on? But I couldn't. I couldn't ruin the moment because no matter what I *should* have been feeling, I wasn't."

"Surely if I was going to be concerned about any of her destructive habits I *should* be attempting to talk to her about the drugs… But that felt like a much more difficult thing to approach then her promiscuity."
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echoplex View Post
But obviously Michelangelo was full of shit when he said that.

My unpopular position is that everyone (who is kinky) is converted at one point or another, but nothing is concrete anyway. It's more akin to drug addiction than anything like sexual orientation, which cannot be "converted". However, you can "convert" a clean person into a crackhead and they may very well come clean again at some point. Because like harder drugs, harder sex is more intense on a neurological level (adrenaline, dopamine, etc), therefor more pleasurable, more desirable. So they keep pursuing it, the lesser (vanilla) becomes more unfulfilling.
Agreed, nothing is concrete, everything is fluid, we all exist on a continuum limited/defined by our personal definitions/taboos/limits/boundaries/expectations/hopes/fears/conditioning/upbringing and whatnot.

It's not unusual on Lit for a thread to get sidelined/highjacked by aggressive/forceful/angry posters who for one reason or another aren't interested in talking about the OP.

No problem; this isn't my first BDSM Forum rodeo.

So, when you lot are done with your spitballing red herrings and other bon mots, maybe we can talk about my vanilla conversion.

And if not, that's okay too.

It is, after all, a collective decision amongst those who post to this thread, right?
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:37 PM   #19
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As an aside... I find it interesting that in these narratives it is always a young, nubile female sub who is converted. Are we to believe that doms are trained and converted in the same way?

We don't seem to see much of that flipside scenario... I wonder why?
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:35 AM   #20
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I am not sure that I would like to have a vanilla conversion done on me. It sounds painful.
For me the word "conversion" summons up images of people who spend their weekends hotting up their cars, or doing hair transplants on My Little Pony dolls. I don't think I'd want to do it to a person.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:56 AM   #21
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But obviously Michelangelo was full of shit when he said that.

My unpopular position is that everyone (who is kinky) is converted at one point or another, but nothing is concrete anyway. It's more akin to drug addiction than anything like sexual orientation, which cannot be "converted". However, you can "convert" a clean person into a crackhead and they may very well come clean again at some point. Because like harder drugs, harder sex is more intense on a neurological level (adrenaline, dopamine, etc), therefor more pleasurable, more desirable. So they keep pursuing it, the lesser (vanilla) becomes more unfulfilling.
Well, at least you're aware that your position is unpopular coz I disagree.

Maybe for *some* people kink might be like a drug addiction, but what about those (like myself) that discovered our kinky penchants during childhood? As far as I'm aware, rolling myself up in a rug and imagining I couldn't get free didn't feel sexual at the time, it just felt good, right and comforting. It most probably didn't stimulate the production of adrenaline, dopamine etc., therefore your theory that the sole reason we are kinky is because we need the thrill seems redundant to me.

I persue kink coz it gets me off. I NEED it to get off. I can have vanilla sex but I've got to fantasise about something kinky to actually orgasm. I have always been this way, since the first time I masturbated (which was long before I had sex with another person, let alone kinky sex).

My position is that for *some* people, like myself, kink is a fundamental part of who they are and it is painfully concrete. There is no conversion, we were born this way and will die this way. I have tried not to be kinky - tried so really, really, really hard to deny this part of myself and it almost distroyed my relationship. Apparently for me denying my kink renders my sexual indentity defunct and I am unable to be aroused at all.

But for other people, like my partner, kink is a fun activity we do together. He doesn't fantasise about it or need it to get off, but nonetheless really enjoys what we do. Before being with me he had never done anything kinky or even thought about trying anything kinky. When I suggested we try some things he wasn't so enthused or excited but gave it a go and enjoyed himself.

Did I convert him? No. He will probably never need kink like I do or have it form part of his identity, but that's ok. Fuck, it's more than ok. Who the fuck I am to go round telling people who they should be and what they should feel?

If anything, people might convert themselves. Just like with religion. Sure you can baptise someone, make them go to church, force them to pray, but can you MAKE them BELIEVE? Nah, only the individual can make that happen and only the individual will know when it has happened.

So to the OP: maybe you introduced someone to the idea of submission and helped them explore it. But you sure as hell didn't reach inside them and flip a submissive switch. If that happened she did it herself and that has very little to do with you at all.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:57 AM   #22
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Agreed, nothing is concrete, everything is fluid, we all exist on a continuum limited/defined by our personal definitions/taboos/limits/boundaries/expectations/hopes/fears/conditioning/upbringing and whatnot.

It's not unusual on Lit for a thread to get sidelined/highjacked by aggressive/forceful/angry posters who for one reason or another aren't interested in talking about the OP.

No problem; this isn't my first BDSM Forum rodeo.

So, when you lot are done with your spitballing red herrings and other bon mots, maybe we can talk about my vanilla conversion.

And if not, that's okay too.

It is, after all, a collective decision amongst those who post to this thread, right?
Come on show some leadership! Right now, you are letting everyone else run this meeting which you called.

If you respond to every comment instead of saying what you came to tell us, that's your decision and no one else's. And I want to hear what you have to say.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:39 PM   #23
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So to the OP: maybe you introduced someone to the idea of submission and helped them explore it. But you sure as hell didn't reach inside them and flip a submissive switch. If that happened she did it herself and that has very little to do with you at all.
When you open a can of beans, it is not possible to later say which one made you fart.

It surely wasn't "all me"...nor was it "all her".
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:28 PM   #24
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When you open a can of beans, it is not possible to later say which one made you fart.

It surely wasn't "all me"...nor was it "all her".
Good, I made some adjustments to your first post to reflect this. I think you were out of order in claiming all conversion credit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
A woman I play with and I have done a pretty much full on Vanilla Conversion with her over the past three years and thought it might make for an interesting discussion over here.

Through her own hard work, personal growth and some guidance from me she can behave like a good and loving submissive and it's good stuff.
Now, where's the rest of your story? You've eaten your can of beans, now fart out what you planned to say from the beginning. We're waiting...
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:20 PM   #25
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Good, I made some adjustments to your first post to reflect this. I think you were out of order in claiming all conversion credit.



Now, where's the rest of your story? You've eaten your can of beans, now fart out what you planned to say from the beginning. We're waiting...
No thanks.
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